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DeMar DeRozan: The new Jrue Holiday?

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  • #91
    I think this thread is a little bit pointless. Everyone on this team is expendable for the right return, we all know this. If the return improves the team then you do the trade, doesn't really matter who it is.
    You come at the King, you best not miss.

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    • #92
      Mr.Z wrote: View Post
      I think this thread is a little bit pointless. Everyone on this team is expendable for the right return, we all know this. If the return improves the team then you do the trade, doesn't really matter who it is.
      Yup. I completely agree. No such thing as untradeable, unless you're a generational talent, period.

      Comment


      • #93
        im not against trading anyone
        demar for LeBron cmon Miami do it!!!
        but Ive always liked derozan and he is a gym rat that always gets better which ive never heard about holiday (I admit to my ignorance if holiday is also a gym rat)

        I love those qualities about derozan and they should never be just thrown away for less than full value back in a trade

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        • #94
          Matt52 wrote: View Post
          I once thought DD would thrive as a 6th man. Not anymore.

          He deserves to be a starter and he is a very good player - I'm just not a fan of his game.

          I can't emphasize enough you don't trade DD unless you get a Holiday-like return or better.
          Agree with this and respect your point.

          As a huge DD fan i'd hate to see him go but i believe that would give us such a great championship opportunity. Some draft examples i see would be (unsure what team until end of season) but realistically get a pick in the 6-10 range... (plus a player or draft pick something not to hefty) Draft Vonleh? Exum? etc. or.. the other possibility (a little dreamer of me i know) a package like Demar S+T Lowry and possibly future 1st rounder unprotected hell even a Steve Novak wouldn't make some team ponder say a Milwakee who is poorly managed and is trying to win now. I only say this because i see it as a realistic possible due to the fact Masai wants to get a top pick we know this (plus who doesn't want wiggins) , also the cap implications of salary and also years the player can be retained if you draft said player (you get special restrictions and rights of player.)

          Nice to see you own up to your DD hate. I agree about the style of his game but i realistically think he's not Kobe but a poor mans kobe in style of game work ethic etc..

          Realistically i know if we could trade demar to get into top 6-8 we do it because we know we will be better in long run for it if masai's draft history continues which i see a lot of "can't miss" prospects

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          • #95
            Burnit482 wrote: View Post
            Agree with this and respect your point.

            As a huge DD fan i'd hate to see him go but i believe that would give us such a great championship opportunity. Some draft examples i see would be (unsure what team until end of season) but realistically get a pick in the 6-10 range... (plus a player or draft pick something not to hefty) Draft Vonleh? Exum? etc. or.. the other possibility (a little dreamer of me i know) a package like Demar S+T Lowry and possibly future 1st rounder unprotected hell even a Steve Novak wouldn't make some team ponder say a Milwakee who is poorly managed and is trying to win now. I only say this because i see it as a realistic possible due to the fact Masai wants to get a top pick we know this (plus who doesn't want wiggins) , also the cap implications of salary and also years the player can be retained if you draft said player (you get special restrictions and rights of player.)

            Nice to see you own up to your DD hate. I agree about the style of his game but i realistically think he's not Kobe but a poor mans kobe in style of game work ethic etc..

            Realistically i know if we could trade demar to get into top 6-8 we do it because we know we will be better in long run for it if masai's draft history continues which i see a lot of "can't miss" prospects
            There is no hate for DeRozan.

            I'm not a fan of minimal defense and offence centred around long 2pt jump shots and an ever increasing number of ISOs.

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            • #96
              I think it is obvious that a lot of this teams success this year has been about chemistry and fit. Every player interview, it seems, winds up with the player being interviewed saying something like "We just really like each other. I know the guys out there on the floor have my back and I have theirs, whether is's one of the starters or the last guy on the bench. We all trust each other to do what needs to be done to win the game. We never feel like we are out of any game."

              It sounds like a mantra they have been required to memorize as part of their jobs but it also sounds completely genuine. Now I know that winning solves everything...but the Raps are winning. I also know that team chemistry can play a big part in any teams success. We all know how much of this game is mental. Teams can get up for big games and play out of their minds, beating opponents they have no right to beat on paper and also losing to teams they shouldn't. So I don't think you can discount the impact of chemistry and fit with a bunch of young guys.

              I don't see this team beating Miami, let alone the Spurs, in a seven game series. They are at least a couple of pieces away. But I believe MU needs to be careful messing with chemistry. Maybe the prefered route for the Raps is to keep as much of the core together as possible and then add a significant high quality character free agent, and one or two improved backup players at the center and wing positions. A guy like Durant immediately springs to mind. I am not sure that trading away a major piece, like DeRozan, for young prospects and a good piece is the best route for success two - three years from now.

              Just thinking. I trust MU. If he trades DD then I am sure he has a plan and good reasons for doing so. But if he doesn't, it might be because he is thinking of chemistry and fit.

              Comment


              • #97
                I'm not against trading Demar for the right return in the right situation, although I'd prefer to see him stay. I think I'd like to see how the playoffs play out before making any conclusions. I have numerous concerns, which mirror what other posters are saying in some cases:

                1. chemistry - this is huge and I think Demar is a very big part of the chemistry here. Trading him in the offseason may do to the Raps what the trade deadline has apparently done to Indy, although the Raps would have a full season to get over it.

                2. Lowry - some have suggested that if Lowry leaves than it's just as well to trade Demar. Lowry decides to leave so the team has to rebuild? Crazy talk...if Lowry leaves you absolutely keep Demar, as he will keep the team afloat in Lowry's absence. Also, this team can win without Lowry. We probably wouldn't be as good (although that would depend on JV and Ross IMO), but Vasquez and De Colo, if retained, would be sufficient as PG's to keep this team competitive. I guess if you want to tank, then sure, trade Demar if Lowry leaves but tanking isn't going to happen any time soon.

                3. Ross isn't ready. I agree with Chico, he ain't no pro...yet. And another year or two, at least, next to Demar will help him get to that point, even moreso than the increased playing time and responsibility he would get if Demar was moved, IMO.

                4. Demar is still improving - it's the little things now. Court awareness, handles, passing, decision making. As Demar continues to play in his current role, he will only get better at it. Once a slasher/dunker turned jump shooter, and now a guy with a good all around offensive game, maybe next year he becomes a better facilitator and closer.

                5. The future success of this team depends more on JV and Ross than Demar. Yes, I think Demar can still improve, but those improvements will be minor next to the improvements that JV and Ross could potentially make. I don't think trading Demar necessarily improves the chances either JV or Ross reach their potential. I think they would be better by playing next to a pro like Demar.

                6. Timing and return - I don't think this offseason is the best time to move Demar. He needs another season to elevate his value at least. If he continues to play well, he will certainly opt out of his contract, and if MU feels like his value is going to be too rich for him, that would be an ideal time to move him. Timing is key here, because at the deadline might be too late to maximize a return, as every team will suspect Demar will opt out and go to UFA, and nobody is giving up alot for a rental. Again, I'd like to see at least one more season of Demar, just to prove that his season is not an anomaly.

                As far as return goes, I would prefer not to move Demar unless someone better is coming back. Outside of the two broken all-stars, Demar is arguably the second best SG in the game. His defense isn't great, but I'd be damned if it's worse than Harden's. I would think Demar is top5 at his position regardless of who is considered in the analysis. I wouldn't move him for a pick and an expiring, or even a pick and a prospect, or certainly not to get a decent backup bigman (we can get that through FA, and probably fairly cheaply). Two lottery picks is tempting, but trading an all-star on a good team for unknowns isn't great asset management IMO. Like others have said, its too early to tell if that Holiday trade really worked out so doing it just becasue it's possible isn't necessarily a good move. Now, if we are able to capture a Durant or at least another player at the level between Demar and Durant/LBJ, than DD is much much more expendable IMO, depending on the skill set of the player we get. If it's Durant, there is absolutely no need to keep Demar, but if we did get Durant, the return for Demar would be much less important than just trading him for picks/prospects.

                The idea of getting a Monroe appealed to me earlier in the season...now not so much. JV will easily be better than Monroe in all aspects of the game IMO. I don't think having Monroe makes DD expendable, nor do I think it would be good for JV's development...JV works nicely with a PF that can stretch the floor, a little at least. I don't like the idea of JV sharing the low post.

                Most of us, if not all, understand that this team isn't a contender at the moment. And most of us think that this team is a piece or two away. And many believe we should have some patience. So, why not give the team another year or two and see if JV and Ross are those pieces? We can keep these guys together for another year or two without destroying our flexibility going forward. I really think that this core can be Eastern Conference contenders by the time JV and Ross need extensions, that is of course, if they develop like I anticipate. That may not happen, but more time is needed to determine the liklihood of that happening IMO.

                Comment


                • #98
                  BigCamB wrote: View Post
                  Nope, because I'm not hating. At least bring something intelligent to the discussion instead of saying "lol everyone hates DeMar, haters" People around here always talk about this team making a significant move for once like multiple picks, a big time player etc if they're going to make a big jump and that internal growth of the current core will not be enough. If the raptors want to make a big move, surely DeMar is the most valuable asset the raptors have to include in such a move. Who else is there?
                  Of course if you believe in the he current core then that's fine as well, I am very comfortable with it as well..but it's just a legit discussion and nothing personal against DeMar. It's not even to do with hating his game either.
                  wowowwooww, clearly I was extending a joke!
                  The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                  • #99
                    enlightenment wrote: View Post
                    wowowwooww, clearly I was extending a joke!
                    Sorry pal, I didn't see that one

                    Comment


                    • Ugh i'd have a really hard time trading Derozen

                      As mentioned way back in post #1 the reality is it could very well benefit the team greatly, but at the same time i wonder what moving demar would do for the teams chemistry. i can't remember a raptors team that was as fun to watch and the big reason is the chemistry.
                      @sweatpantsjer

                      Comment


                      • I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that DD should be traded if enough is offered in return. The question is:

                        what is the best offer for DD that you'd still turn down?

                        I'd turn down a 6-8 pick this year and a 10-15 pick next year.

                        I would trade DD for a top 3 2014 pick though. I'd also do a pick 4-6 this year and 8-10 next year.

                        The added financial flexbility of gaining two picks coming in on rookie contracts is somewhat negligible to me. By the time those rookies develop, JV and Ross are at the same stage in their careers as DD is now. Why just kick the can down the road 2 years?
                        Last edited by stooley; Mon Apr 7, 2014, 11:57 AM.
                        "Bruno?
                        Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                        He's terrible."

                        -Superjudge, 7/23

                        Hope you're wrong.

                        Comment


                        • Mr.Z wrote: View Post
                          I think this thread is a little bit pointless. Everyone on this team is expendable for the right return, we all know this. If the return improves the team then you do the trade, doesn't really matter who it is.
                          This is all hypothetical to determine what that "right return" should be.

                          Puffer wrote: View Post
                          I don't see this team beating Miami, let alone the Spurs, in a seven game series. They are at least a couple of pieces away. But I believe MU needs to be careful messing with chemistry. Maybe the prefered route for the Raps is to keep as much of the core together as possible and then add a significant high quality character free agent, and one or two improved backup players at the center and wing positions. A guy like Durant immediately springs to mind. I am not sure that trading away a major piece, like DeRozan, for young prospects and a good piece is the best route for success two - three years from now.
                          This is the whole argument. We are not good enough and need to improve our level of talent. Many people see using DD in a Holiday-type trade to get that talent even at the cost of chemistry.

                          There is no one right answer, I personally question DD's ability to raise the team to the next level and think we should sell high. What that entails exactly I have no idea...

                          If Milwaukee gets Wiggins can we pry the Greek Freak out of them?

                          Can we get a top 5 pick and get an Exum? Vonleh?

                          Do we grab Waiters from the Cavs?

                          Do we go after Galinari and Denver's pick and get a little deeper?

                          Do we trade DD for a collection of talent or a singular talent?

                          Will DD's value be enough to do so? What else will be required? Is it too much? Will it crash and burn? Will it take us to the next level that we are seeking?

                          No one knows....but I for one like discussing it so stop calling the thread pointless and the DD-hate and all that crap and see where the thread goes. Please.


                          I would like to hear some idea trades of the value you think DD can return...I'm really yo-yoing on what his value is
                          Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Mon Apr 7, 2014, 12:11 PM.

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                          • stooley wrote: View Post
                            I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that DD should be traded if enough is offered in return. The question is:

                            what is the best offer for DD that you'd still turn down?

                            I'd turn down a 6-8 pick this year and a 10-15 pick next year.

                            I would trade DD for a top 3 2014 pick though. I'd also do a pick 4-6 this year and 8-10 next year.

                            The added financial flexbility of gaining two picks coming in on rookie contracts is somewhat negligible to me. By the time those rookies develop, JV and Ross are at the same stage in their careers as DD is now. Why just kick the can down the road 2 years?
                            1) The ability to be major free agent players in 2015 and 2016.
                            2) The ability to keep a young core together for up to 6-9 years.
                            3) The ability to build a championship contender over 6-9 years and have the ability to keep it together for many more.


                            One thing that has not been mentioned is DD's contract. It is a player option for 2016-17, i.e. he is only under contract for 2 more seasons. It is pretty obvious he is going to opt out. What happens in 2016-17 if he has a player option which he declines and the Lakers come calling? A chance to play for his hometown team in front of family and friends in one of the most desirable markets. Not saying this is going to happen but it is a possibility - and it could be the Lakers or any team; he'll be unrestricted afterall.

                            Comment


                            • Matt52 wrote: View Post
                              1) The ability to be major free agent players in 2015 and 2016.
                              2) The ability to keep a young core together for up to 6-9 years.
                              3) The ability to build a championship contender over 6-9 years and have the ability to keep it together for many more.


                              One thing that has not been mentioned is DD's contract. It is a player option for 2016-17, i.e. he is only under contract for 2 more seasons. It is pretty obvious he is going to opt out. What happens in 2016-17 if he has a player option which he declines and the Lakers come calling? A chance to play for his hometown team in front of family and friends in one of the most desirable markets. Not saying this is going to happen but it is a possibility - and it could be the Lakers or any team; he'll be unrestricted afterall.
                              Ok. But lets say we draft Vonleh this year. He's predicted as a high ceiling, long term option that a lot of people (including you?) are very high on.

                              If he develops at more or less the same pace as Jonas has so far, then we're waiting until Vonleh's third year before he's a major impact player. That will be Jonas' and TRoss' first year of whatever contract extension they get. Those guys may only be locked up for a couple more years at that point.

                              So given that angle, I don't think we're guaranteed to be in a better position unless Vonleh turns into a better player than DD (which is possible, but definitely not surefire).

                              AND, I think that move actually hurts our chances of being players in the 2015 free agent market. The team would take a step back next year. Analysts will chalk up our success this year to the weak conference, and people still won't take the franchise seriously.

                              I think we have to prove that we're able to hold our own in the playoffs before any big name comes here. Even a close first round exit this year to BLN, and a second round appearance next year would be enough, imo.
                              "Bruno?
                              Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                              He's terrible."

                              -Superjudge, 7/23

                              Hope you're wrong.

                              Comment


                              • stooley wrote: View Post
                                Why just kick the can down the road 2 years?
                                So that in two years we can talk about moving JV and/or Ross to get even more financial flexibility and picks, so that in 2020 the Raps can finally be ready to build a winner starting in 2025.

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