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Thread: Is There A Scenario -- Loul Deng edition

  1. #101
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Are you accounting for cap increase? Non-guaranteed portion of Salmons, Hansbrough deals?
    Yes for Salmons and cap increase. Hansbrough being cut clears just under 2M, but he's worth more via trade I think.

  2. #102
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Yes for Salmons and cap increase. Hansbrough being cut clears just under 2M, but he's worth more via trade I think.
    Mind you, now I think of it, you could probably sign Deng first, then use Bird Rights to exceed the cap for Lowry, bringing the total available money closer to what you were saying.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    but what if those flaws no longer appear when he is on the raptors? we would never be able to prove them. all the evidence that has been put forth about demar is already being dismissed.
    I think the flaws are fairly predictable.

    For example, I don't expect Deng to randomly become a very good 3 point shooter if he were to come to the Raptors. One of the main reasons to replace DD would be to bring in 3 point shooting, so Deng would not be the best idea...

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Yeah we can sit here and pretend that Deng would be a better fit on the Raptors than DD.

    But let's go with what we KNOW and use that to evaluate.

    DD is a better, younger player on a better contract. Trading him for Deng would be stupid to say the least and mortgaging DeRozan's value.

    Don't tell me to "stop" clown
    I'm not supporting the Deng trade (stated multiple times). You really lack reading comprehension. Your only argument is to attack other people by backhanded;y calling them stupid by things they have suggested, even if those ideas aren't stupid (only to you)

    So please stop, you "clown"

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    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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  5. Like OldSkoolCool liked this post
  6. #105
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Yes for Salmons and cap increase. Hansbrough being cut clears just under 2M, but he's worth more via trade I think.
    I doubt that Hansbrough is worth much in a trade. He's a decent bench big. He's ok for his price but there's nothing special about him. There was a rumor that Indiana tried to give Hansbrough to Charlotte in a DJ Augustin sign and trade, and Charlotte didn't want him (for free essentially, since they let Augustin go anyway). I wonder who would offer more in a trade for him, a team that wants a backup 4 or a team that just wants to cut him and save the 2 mil.

    Re salaries, I might be missing someone or something then, I guess. Here's what I see:
    DeMar - 9.5
    Amir - 7
    Novak - 3.5
    Jonas - 3.7
    Ross - 2.8
    Stretched players in that scenario: Fields - 2.1, Hayes - 2
    Other payments: Salmons - 1, Hansbrough - 1, Camby - 0.7
    1st pick - 1.2
    5 roster cap holds - 2.5
    In total 37 mil, with cap likely close to 63 mil.

  7. #106
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    GSW are looking for a 4 who draws fouls. They wanted Amir but Psycho-t for Barnes.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    GSW are looking for a 4 who draws fouls. They wanted Amir but Psycho-t for Barnes.

    Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
    Right. In Ujiri we trust.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I'm not supporting the Deng trade (stated multiple times). You really lack reading comprehension. Your only argument is to attack other people by backhanded;y calling them stupid by things they have suggested, even if those ideas aren't stupid (only to you)

    So please stop, you "clown"
    No, my argument is to present evidence that supports my claim. Your rebuttal is to stick your fingers in your ears and keep shouting the same thing over and over again. Your arguments are devoid of logic and you've really got a stranglehold on the title of Worst Poster on RR.

  10. #109
    Raptors Republic Superstar FoxMachine's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    No, my argument is to present evidence that supports my claim. Your rebuttal is to stick your fingers in your ears and keep shouting the same thing over and over again. Your arguments are devoid of logic and you've really got a stranglehold on the title of Worst Poster on RR.
    Grow up man. Your immaturity and insecurity is getting the best of you. If your argument is so good (and you made some good points) you don't need to resort to personal attacks.

    It says you've been here for 2 months. You wouldn't be here if it wasn't for posters that have been here for years keeping this site relevant. I know I wouldn't. I don't know who you think you are telling someone they are the worst poster here. Are you delusional enough to think you speak for everyone here?
    Last edited by FoxMachine; Fri Apr 18th, 2014 at 12:45 PM.

  11. #110
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    This is going to be long...but imanshumpert I want you to look at how "logical" your arguments are. I will paraphrase so things dont end up un-readable

    Starting about page 3 when I entered.

    QUOTE=OldSkoolCool;320851]What does the points that he brought up have to do with any trade? He does hold the ball and kill the flow quite often, there is no stat that will prove or deny this. Defensively he is not very good, defensive metrics are poor at best. Your over-reliance on stats to justify things is astonishing, especially when regarding DD. Stats are imperfect.[/QUOTE]

    Your reply.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    There is no statistical/quantitative/objective argument for DeMar hurting the team. It's illogical. Yes he takes a lot of shots, but his efficiency is about average which would classify him as a volume scorer not a chucker.

    As for defense, every metric you look at will tell you DeRozan is average or even slightly above-average defensively, particularly when it comes to guarding his position. The people saying he's terrible on defense think that they're justified in saying so because he makes defensive errors in games.
    So you think that DD's high usage on average efficiency NEVER kills the offensive flow. Which cannot be statistically/quantitatively/or objectively proven, because that would be illogical.

    Defensive stats are not that good (because they really aren't)

    You are off to a great start

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Defensive stats don't matter because they say DeMar is a good defender.

    But his TS% matters because it says he's not efficient.
    Sassy comment out of left field.

    Again, defensive stats are not that reliable

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    It's not about being egotistical, it's about you not knowing jackshit.
    Sassy comment

    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    Seriously get over yourself bud. Its a valid opinion. There is no way you can predict what our offense would look like. Things do not always turn out the way u think. You are obviously not as smart as you think you are.
    Valid opinion underlined

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    It's an opinion alright, but not a valid one. It's not supported by any evidence whatsoever, whereas mine is directly supported by basically every single piece of evidence.
    Dismissing opinion. You counter the argument by saying exactly what Fox Machine brought up as your own proof. Then say that your argument is completely justified because you have all the evidence.

    I'm lost

    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    What evidence are you speaking about? you don't have any because deng has never played with the raptors. basketball isn't just black and white. You cant just look at stats and think you know what you're talking about.
    Fox Machine is staying on topic

    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    When dealing with trades there is no one argument that is absolute. Some trades make more sense than others and are predictable to a point.

    But imanshumpert, when someone brings up a point that has some merit about DD often killing offensive flow and you readily dismissing it, you are just being stubborn, maybe he has a point.
    I build on Fox Machine's implied message.

    I call you stubborn because you really haven't said anything yet

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Being stubborn is insisting that Waiters is better than DD, when ALL empirical evidence suggests otherwise.
    You are dismissing any opinion other than your own.

    Backhanded attack, rather than supporting your case, you redirect the argument by undermining the poster.

    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I'm not suggesting this here, I am just saying that how do you know PLAYER XXXXXXXX (ie doesn't matter) will be good/bad in a Raptors uniform?

    You can have best guess is all
    My reply to backhanded comment.

    Leaving Waiters out of it at this point because we hashed this out a lot and we have agreed that we have differing opinions. (because you didn't listen to my argument, and only repeat TS%!, TS%!!, TS%!!!, no matter what I say about how I think his skill set will be better in a team concept than DD's)

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Yeah we can sit here and pretend that Deng would be a better fit on the Raptors than DD.

    But let's go with what we KNOW and use that to evaluate.

    DD is a better, younger player on a better contract. Trading him for Deng would be stupid to say the least and mortgaging DeRozan's value.

    Don't tell me to "stop" clown
    Ahh...so you are admitting that you don't actually know that Deng would be worse for the offensive flow than DD. Which is what the argument was about.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    No, my argument is to present evidence that supports my claim. Your rebuttal is to stick your fingers in your ears and keep shouting the same thing over and over again. Your arguments are devoid of logic and you've really got a stranglehold on the title of Worst Poster on RR.
    You claim you have no evidence supporting your claim of having all the evidence???

    Quote FoxMachine wrote: View Post
    Grow up man. Your immaturity and insecurity is getting the best of you. If your argument is so good (and you made some good points) you don't need to resort to personal attacks.


    I think that is all...

  12. #111
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    This is going to be long...but imanshumpert I want you to look at how "logical" your arguments are. I will paraphrase so things dont end up un-readable

    Starting about page 3 when I entered.

    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    What does the points that he brought up have to do with any trade? He does hold the ball and kill the flow quite often, there is no stat that will prove or deny this. Defensively he is not very good, defensive metrics are poor at best. Your over-reliance on stats to justify things is astonishing, especially when regarding DD. Stats are imperfect.
    Your reply.



    So you think that DD's high usage on average efficiency NEVER kills the offensive flow. Which cannot be statistically/quantitatively/or objectively proven, because that would be illogical.

    Defensive stats are not that good (because they really aren't)

    You are off to a great start



    Sassy comment out of left field.

    Again, defensive stats are not that reliable



    Sassy comment



    Valid opinion underlined



    Dismissing opinion. You counter the argument by saying exactly what Fox Machine brought up as your own proof. Then say that your argument is completely justified because you have all the evidence.

    I'm lost



    Fox Machine is staying on topic



    I build on Fox Machine's implied message.

    I call you stubborn because you really haven't said anything yet



    You are dismissing any opinion other than your own.

    Backhanded attack, rather than supporting your case, you redirect the argument by undermining the poster.



    My reply to backhanded comment.

    Leaving Waiters out of it at this point because we hashed this out a lot and we have agreed that we have differing opinions. (because you didn't listen to my argument, and only repeat TS%!, TS%!!, TS%!!!, no matter what I say about how I think his skill set will be better in a team concept than DD's)



    Ahh...so you are admitting that you don't actually know that Deng would be worse for the offensive flow than DD. Which is what the argument was about.



    You claim you have no evidence supporting your claim of having all the evidence???





    I think that is all...
    How convenient of you to leave out the post where I presented all my evidence:

    Man DeRozan is really disliked around here...

    Trade DeRozan for 15th pick and bad contracts.
    Trade DeRozan for Dion Waiters and his 50% TS
    Trade DeRozan for Deng (30 next season) who will cost 8 figures a season to re-sign

    Thank God some of you aren't the GM of this team. Cleveland would laugh all the way to the bank if we offered them DeRozan for Deng. For all the complaining that people do about DeRozan's inefficiency. He's actually more efficient than Deng (53.0% TS compared to 51.7%) at much higher volume (18FGA to 14FGA and 23ppg compared to 15ppg). Not to mention DD is 5 years younger and on a cheaper deal than what it'll cost to sign Deng.

    It's not just this season either, Deng has never been particularly efficient, despite the fact that he's been in a role player role his whole career. Has a career TS% of 52.6% (which coincidentally is the same as DeRozan's). It should be pretty telling that the Bulls actually got better when he was traded. Unlike DeRozan, he doesn't draw double teams and opposing defences don't game plan for him, so he doesn't really benefit the team offensively. He also isn't a good passer at all.

    So... on topic --- no I wouldn't trade DeRozan for Deng, nor would I sign Deng even if we had the cap space. The only high-price wing player (obviously LBJ and Melo are not happening) I'd even dare to spend money on this offseason is Gordon Hayward. Might be able to get a bargain on him due to him having a down shooting season, and I'd expect his efficiency to ratchet back up as the 3rd or 4th option on our team as opposed to 1st in Utah.
    You liked that post btw.

    EDIT: Oh right and this one...

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    It's simple to argue against.

    First of all DeRozan is a better offensive player than Luol Deng, period. There is no argument to be had here. DeRozan has a higher assist rate, lower turnover rate, and scores more efficiently with significantly higher volume. Not to mention he's much more versatile as a scorer than Deng is. Deng is mostly a catch and shoot player/a finisher, he doesn't create a lot of shots. DeRozan on the other hand has the ability to get to the rim and finish, score out of the high or low post, and is the 2nd most efficient pick and roll ball handler (PPP) in the league after Goran Dragic. Those pick and rolls/pops help create a ton of points for guys like Amir and 2Pat, and additionally can shift the defense to help free guys like Ross/Vasquez/Lowry for open 3s. So no, our offense would NOT get better if we traded DeRozan for Deng, it would get significantly worse. That's another guy standing around waiting for somebody to create an open look for him, and that would place the onus on Lowry to create scoring opportunities for the other 4 players on the floor at all times. He's not LeBron or CP3.

    Additionally there is no reason whatsoever to double Luol Deng, while opposing coaches double DeRozan on a regular basis. I'm sure you can do math, so it should be easy to see how if DD gets doubled there are now only 3 defenders available to guard the other 4 Raptors players. This makes it easier to score and create offense.


    As for the defensive end, I think Deng would only make our defense better against Miami (since we have no one that can guard LBJ one on one really). I actually don't think he would improve our team defensively much overall if at all.

    While DeRozan is obviously not a shut-down defender, he doesn't need to be. Ross always guards the superior offensive wing on the other team, and most teams don't have 2 wings that are lethal scoring threats (the only one I can think of is Miami, maybe Brooklyn but PP and JJ are old now). As a result, DD is usually left guarding a role player. As you saw in that link that Miekenstein posted, that is actually why DeRozan is the best isolation defender in the league according to Synergy statistics. Swapping Deng for DeRozan to guard the Kyle Korvers, Mike Dunleavys, Trevor Arizas, MKGs and Iman Shumperts of the world isn't going to do a hell of a lot for us defensively. Even though Deng is a better perimeter defender, the marginal improvement that we'd get defending role players isn't worth what we're losing on the offensive end.
    Get out of here.
    Last edited by imanshumpert; Fri Apr 18th, 2014 at 04:10 PM.

  13. #112
    Raptors Republic All-Star Hotshot's Avatar
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    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-summer/page/6

    bleacher report prediction has us signing Deng and also Kyle Lowry

    Luol Deng, Cleveland Cavaliers: Signs with Toronto Raptors for three years, $33 million.

    Deng may want a fourth year or perhaps even a little more per season, but the market might not be so receptive to that. At least in Toronto, he'd join a promising young playoff team with a desperate need for someone of his capabilities. Cleveland will likely go after Deng as well, but there's no question which franchise is in better shape. This would be a nice fit both ways.
    Kyle Lowry, Toronto Raptors: Re-signs with Toronto Raptors for three years, $30 million.

    After it looked like Lowry was surely going to be in a different uniform next season, he's suddenly proven himself invaluable to what Toronto has in place. While it's possible GM Masai Ujiri ultimately does decide to rebuild, it seems much more likely he'll build off this current core and keep Lowry around. This deal seems fair from both sides, especially since so few teams around the league are in need of a starting point guard.
    I like their Kyle Lowry prediction, but do not like the Deng one. I just hope Masai isn't like Colangelo taste for Paisanos,(putting higher emphasis on picking up some African nationals because he also came from there as opposed to being more objective to what's best for the team)

  14. #113
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Hotshot wrote: View Post
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-summer/page/6

    bleacher report prediction has us signing Deng and also Kyle Lowry





    I like their Kyle Lowry prediction, but do not like the Deng one. I just hope Masai isn't like Colangelo taste for Paisanos,(putting higher emphasis on picking up some African nationals because he also came from there as opposed to being more objective to what's best for the team)
    I will be disgusted if he signs Deng..... unless it is for like $7M.

    Ugh.

    Think BIG or LONG TERM.



    Thankfully this is a nobody B/R article.... phew.
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    If we do sign Deng it better be a 1 year deal or 2 year with team option or something...

    Really don't want him long-term at all and it SCREAMS treadmill.

  16. #115
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I will be disgusted if he signs Deng..... unless it is for like $7M.

    Ugh.

    Think BIG or LONG TERM.



    Thankfully this is a nobody B/R article.... phew.
    I also saw a rumour the other day that the Lakers will pursue Deng. Hope that's more likely.

  17. #116
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    With Deng and MU both having strong ties to Africa its easy for people to believe a connection will occur. But I agree with the last few posts here.. Deng is not what the Raptors should be pursuing. If he wants to come to the team and take the mid-level that's fine.. but even then it should be a short term deal.

  18. #117
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    I doubt that Hansbrough is worth much in a trade. He's a decent bench big. He's ok for his price but there's nothing special about him. There was a rumor that Indiana tried to give Hansbrough to Charlotte in a DJ Augustin sign and trade, and Charlotte didn't want him (for free essentially, since they let Augustin go anyway). I wonder who would offer more in a trade for him, a team that wants a backup 4 or a team that just wants to cut him and save the 2 mil.

    Re salaries, I might be missing someone or something then, I guess. Here's what I see:
    DeMar - 9.5
    Amir - 7
    Novak - 3.5
    Jonas - 3.7
    Ross - 2.8
    Stretched players in that scenario: Fields - 2.1, Hayes - 2
    Other payments: Salmons - 1, Hansbrough - 1, Camby - 0.7
    1st pick - 1.2
    5 roster cap holds - 2.5
    In total 37 mil, with cap likely close to 63 mil.
    Yeah I'm assuming we re-sign PP and GV. No sense decimating the bench just to sign a guy who's in decline.

  19. #118
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    Quote Hotshot wrote: View Post
    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...-summer/page/6

    bleacher report prediction has us signing Deng and also Kyle Lowry





    I like their Kyle Lowry prediction, but do not like the Deng one. I just hope Masai isn't like Colangelo taste for Paisanos,(putting higher emphasis on picking up some African nationals because he also came from there as opposed to being more objective to what's best for the team)
    Well, 3/33 and 3/30 would be reasonable. But I suspect both players will get more years and money. I don't think the Raptors could get Deng for less than 4/50.

    But if you can get both of them at 3/63 combined, I guess that's fine. Both Deng and Lowry should be very movable at that salary. And it still leaves near-max in 2015 free agency, depending on who else they sign.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Well, 3/33 and 3/30 would be reasonable. But I suspect both players will get more years and money. I don't think the Raptors could get Deng for less than 4/50.

    But if you can get both of them at 3/63 combined, I guess that's fine. Both Deng and Lowry should be very movable at that salary. And it still leaves near-max in 2015 free agency, depending on who else they sign.
    No... just no.

    And Deng would most definitely NOT be movable at that salary lol. 30+ year old wing being paid 8 figures for multiple years? Yeah right.

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