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Is There A Scenario -- Loul Deng edition

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  • #31
    imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    It's simple to argue against.

    First of all DeRozan is a better offensive player than Luol Deng, period. There is no argument to be had here. DeRozan has a higher assist rate, lower turnover rate, and scores more efficiently with significantly higher volume. Not to mention he's much more versatile as a scorer than Deng is. Deng is mostly a catch and shoot player/a finisher, he doesn't create a lot of shots. DeRozan on the other hand has the ability to get to the rim and finish, score out of the high or low post, and is the 2nd most efficient pick and roll ball handler (PPP) in the league after Goran Dragic. Those pick and rolls/pops help create a ton of points for guys like Amir and 2Pat, and additionally can shift the defense to help free guys like Ross/Vasquez/Lowry for open 3s. So no, our offense would NOT get better if we traded DeRozan for Deng, it would get significantly worse. That's another guy standing around waiting for somebody to create an open look for him, and that would place the onus on Lowry to create scoring opportunities for the other 4 players on the floor at all times. He's not LeBron or CP3.

    Additionally there is no reason whatsoever to double Luol Deng, while opposing coaches double DeRozan on a regular basis. I'm sure you can do math, so it should be easy to see how if DD gets doubled there are now only 3 defenders available to guard the other 4 Raptors players. This makes it easier to score and create offense.


    As for the defensive end, I think Deng would only make our defense better against Miami (since we have no one that can guard LBJ one on one really). I actually don't think he would improve our team defensively much overall if at all.

    While DeRozan is obviously not a shut-down defender, he doesn't need to be. Ross always guards the superior offensive wing on the other team, and most teams don't have 2 wings that are lethal scoring threats (the only one I can think of is Miami, maybe Brooklyn but PP and JJ are old now). As a result, DD is usually left guarding a role player. As you saw in that link that Miekenstein posted, that is actually why DeRozan is the best isolation defender in the league according to Synergy statistics. Swapping Deng for DeRozan to guard the Kyle Korvers, Mike Dunleavys, Trevor Arizas, MKGs and Iman Shumperts of the world isn't going to do a hell of a lot for us defensively. Even though Deng is a better perimeter defender, the marginal improvement that we'd get defending role players isn't worth what we're losing on the offensive end.
    ok... well just watching the games, our offense has looked significantly better when derozan doesn't play because everyone else plays WITHIN the offense and within themselves. That's why it would be better with deng, but with anyone that plays within the offense. We wouldn't have someone throwing away possessions on a regular basis. We would always be looking for the best shot. Derozan slows down the ball movement far too often or kills it completely with a jacked shot.

    Derozan turns scrubs into allstars when he plays defense against them.. i cant imagine how you think it doesn't matter that he sucks at defense. I don't care what stats you are looking at.. Watch the game, so many baskets against us are attributable to him. But you have to understand whats happening on the floor to see that. The stats wont show it.

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    • #32
      anyway, Im not going to keep harping on derozan or defending my stance on him, im obviously cheering for the guy going into these playoffs and hope that he helps us win... whatever happens in the future happens.

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      • #33
        FoxMachine wrote: View Post
        ok... well just watching the games, our offense has looked significantly better when derozan doesn't play because everyone else plays WITHIN the offense and within themselves. That's why it would be better with deng, but with anyone that plays within the offense. We wouldn't have someone throwing away possessions on a regular basis. We would always be looking for the best shot. Derozan slows down the ball movement far too often or kills it completely with a jacked shot.

        Derozan turns scrubs into allstars when he plays defense against them.. i cant imagine how you think it doesn't matter that he sucks at defense. I don't care what stats you are looking at.. Watch the game, so many baskets against us are attributable to him. But you have to understand whats happening on the floor to see that. The stats wont show it.
        Your avatar is perfect because you truly have no clue what you're talking about.

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        • #34
          imanshumpert wrote: View Post
          Your avatar is perfect because you truly have no clue what you're talking about.
          Actually he does have a clue. He brings in some solid points about DD, who does kill the offensive flow and is bad defensively.

          However Deng is definitely a no go. To many issues, need a more complete player to replace DD, not a differently flawed one.

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          • #35
            I tend to lean more over onto the "Homers" side of the fence when it comes to DeRozan although I believe though there are obviously areas in his game where he could still improve (I don't need to list them, we all know them) however, it's hard to ask much more from a guy averaging 22.8ppg 4.5rbd 4ast on a 9.5 mil contract who has just co lead this team to their winningest season in team history.
            You come at the King, you best not miss.

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            • #36
              That being said I'm not opposed to trading anybody on the team if the return is right even though It may deal a blow to the feels, but Derozan for Deng is not the right return
              You come at the King, you best not miss.

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              • #37
                ANOTHER "trade DD for an aging player" thread, again!!! I feel like throwing up. Then, when we get a year of mediocrity, Ujiri will be blamed and looked upon as an idiot for trading a YOUNG ALL STAR PLAYER for a banged up veteran player, who solely will NOT lift our TEAM ORIENTED team to any promise land. Someone pass the TUMS.
                The NBA Larry O'Brien Trophy's 'Big Decision': "This is hard..(smiling)...but..I've decided to take my talents to North Texas, to join The Dallas Mavericks.


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                • #38
                  Since the Gay trade, the team's offense PPP is 111.4 with DD on the court. 109.9 off the court.

                  Since the Gay trade, the team's defense PPP is 104.9 with DD on the court. 106.5 off the court.

                  Hard to argue he hurts the D or O in any significant way when the team is better with than without him. It could be argued the players he plays with buoy him up, but he plays a lot with both the starters and bench, so I doubt that's it.
                  twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                  • #39
                    To be fair...didnt start this as a trade DeRozan thread. This was more about how do we get Deng surrendering very little.
                    For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

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                    • #40
                      thead wrote: View Post
                      To be fair...didnt start this as a trade DeRozan thread. This was more about how do we get Deng surrendering very little.
                      I don't think we can. We don't have the cap space to sign him outright, and would need to send assets back CLE's way if we do a S+T. Deng wants max money, and even if he doesn't get it, he's not settling for less than 10M.
                      twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                      • #41
                        OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                        Actually he does have a clue. He brings in some solid points about DD, who does kill the offensive flow and is bad defensively.

                        However Deng is definitely a no go. To many issues, need a more complete player to replace DD, not a differently flawed one.
                        You are in the same category as him, so "he does have a clue" coming from the guy who wants to trade DD for 50% TS% Dion Waiters doesn't mean a whole lot.

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                        • #42
                          DanH wrote: View Post
                          Since the Gay trade, the team's offense PPP is 111.4 with DD on the court. 109.9 off the court.

                          Since the Gay trade, the team's defense PPP is 104.9 with DD on the court. 106.5 off the court.

                          Hard to argue he hurts the D or O in any significant way when the team is better with than without him. It could be argued the players he plays with buoy him up, but he plays a lot with both the starters and bench, so I doubt that's it.
                          There is no statistical/quantitative/objective argument for DeMar hurting the team. It's illogical. Yes he takes a lot of shots, but his efficiency is about average which would classify him as a volume scorer not a chucker. Contrary to popular belief, not every player in the NBA can see consistent double teams and handle high usage while still producing effective scoring numbers and limiting turnovers.

                          As for defense, every metric you look at will tell you DeRozan is average or even slightly above-average defensively, particularly when it comes to guarding his position. The people saying he's terrible on defense think that they're justified in saying so because he makes defensive errors in games. Yes, he does make defensive mistakes, as do most "average" defenders and even some above-average ones. He is not a liability on the defensive end of the floor though like some like to suggest.

                          At this point some of you guys need to just go on NBA 2K14 and make these trades yourself and get it out of your system. Whether that's DeRozan for Deng, DeRozan for Waiters, DeRozan for a 10M expiring, idc. Just keep it away from the actual team.

                          Sorry for contributing to this turning into yet another DD thread.

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                          • #43
                            FoxMachine wrote: View Post
                            no stat can excuse how terrible demar is on defense. some games it feels like he is the cause of every basket against us. The guy sends rotations out of whack constantly and cant guard anyone. just watch the game, its obvious.

                            However, I do agree that we do not need a quick fix. But when the time comes to go all in, I do not expect demar to be here.
                            I think you're stuck in the past, given your views on Deng and Demar. If you don't adapt to new information you will always have a flawed perspective. I watch almost every game and Demar definitely is not the liability you claim him to be. As much as I rep Val, I can admit that as a sophomore C he has been our weakest link on D among the starting five.

                            Demar is not a great defender but he's improved to average at least. His closeouts are much better and he fights a ton more on defense. If he was still such a liability on D people would mention it, but around the league most of the talk is that he has improved in that regard.

                            If we had a chance to get a superstar 3 or 4, I'd be okay with trading Demar, because Ross seems like a more natural fit at the 2, but Deng is not the answer.

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                            • #44
                              FoxMachine wrote: View Post
                              People on here turn a blind eye to so much of what he does (stupid shots) or doesn't do (defense) during a game that its sickening
                              Not to single you out bit aren't you doing exactly that - turning a blind eye to the good things he does.

                              Derozan will cause debate because here is the naked truth: he does a lot of things well and a lot of things badly. Shit, he's human.

                              But like it or not, he's a leader on this team and his work ethic and good habits have strongly influenced the rest of the team on this run. The kid wants to win so badly for this city and in these days of apathetic and disloyal superstars that is rare and a valuable intangible
                              A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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                              • #45
                                imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                                You are in the same category as him, so "he does have a clue" coming from the guy who wants to trade DD for 50% TS% Dion Waiters doesn't mean a whole lot.
                                What does the points that he brought up have to do with any trade? He does hold the ball and kill the flow quite often, there is no stat that will prove or deny this. Defensively he is not very good, defensive metrics are poor at best. Your over-reliance on stats to justify things is astonishing, especially when regarding DD. Stats are imperfect.

                                As for the Waiters trade, I think he could potentially bring more to a team than DD can. Are there question marks with it, absolutely. Does he need to be more efficient, yes, but he has proven that he can use the same amount as DD at near the same efficiency, he's younger, a better ball handler, a better passer, a better shooter, can be good defensively, is a very good at penetration (lol, but seriously is very important in basketball). There is still a lot to like with having Waiters over DD, Waiters will probably be the better player in the long run, just not right now in his second season.

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