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Thread: ROUND 1 - Raptors vs Nets + The Refs

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Letter N wrote: View Post
    But it works like this, you see Kevin Durant make swish after swish after swish, then you see him shoot an airball and your thought process is "he must've been fouled" because what happened goes against the norm. Guys like Durant, Jordan, Lebron, Kobe, etc. build up a reputation as being able to make shots, so when they don't you give them the benefit of the doubt and give them a 50/50 call every time. Of course it's not right but it's just how our mind's operate.

    If we were playing pickup and you hack me 4 times in a row while I'm shooting the 5th time I miss most people are going to think you fouled me.

    Again if we had played a great game and lost because of bad calls that's one thing, but playing like shit and complaining about a 3-1 foul disparity in the 4th quarter is idiotic.
    Oh, I fully agree that our loss had nothign to do with reffing, nor do I care to debate that.

    This is something I despise in general. Why? Because our minds do not actually all operate like that. It's hard to escape some small amount of bias, but it's fully possible to ref the play, and not the players, if you catch my drift. And it is something that is evaluated with refs at every level...as in, if you're reffing a high school game, and one guy is clearly dominating, some refs will be more influenced (even if not intentionally) into giving that guy a favorable whistle, and some won't, and this is something that's noted whenever you're evaluated for a game. In fact, they try to teach you to be as much like the latter as possible when you start reffing (at least when I did). At the NBA level, you'd think they'd do everything they can to ensure more of their refs fit into the latter category, but watching the games (of any team) it really just doesn't feel like that, at least not nearly as much as you'd hope.

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  3. #62
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Anyone know if there are any reffing metrics out there? Would be curious to see if the numbers show any bias towards specific refs and the Raptors or if it's all in our heads.

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    Quote zulfi wrote: View Post
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...nets-referees/

    Tim Donaghy was on The Jeff Blair Show and basically said the refs are programmed to favour one team over the other. I don't know how credible he is after the whole betting scandal but still gives interesting insight on how refs are prepared for playoff games
    I took what he said to mean the following: there is a difference between conspiracy theories and personal bias. In the case of the NBA, we seem to have (perhaps even at an unintentional level) a pseudo combination of the two.

    Basically, the league and everyone else knows that refs can't call everything evenly all the time. There have to be points of emphasis (hand-checking, flopping, travelling off pump fakes but not on euro steps etc.) But when the league relays these to individual reffing teams before games, even if at an unintentional subliminal level, it seems entirely possible that they would create emphases that ultimately work to favor the veteran, big name, big market team.

    As Nilanka pointed out, Spurs are not a big market, nor do they necessarily have big names (although I'm not sure I agree with the latter point). I think the difference is that the Spurs are a superlative team. Moreover, they are a team that dominates primarily at the offensive end based on great ball movement and shooting (which can be hard to effect as a ref).

    I don't think that their perpetual success is proof that the league doesn't favor big name/big market players/teams. I think rather that they are a good example of how you can be good enough were the refs don't consistently affect you. The Raptors aren't at that level and that's why bad reffing can be so frustrating -- because we aren't good enough to overcome it. Not yet at least...

  5. #64
    Raptors Republic Starter Uncle_Si's Avatar
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    I can't take this ref shit anymore. I got caught up in it before the game and when I was at the game but the way it's being discussed is wrong.

    Let's assume everything is true about the league and the refs purposefully fucking over the raps. BITCHING ABOUT IT MAKES IT WORSE.

    And it starts with Casey. If I'm Casey I tell every single player on my team that they are not to complain the the refs. You get hit on a drive and don't get the call? Get the Fuck back up and go play D. Don't even look at the refs to bail you out. You get called on a shit defensive foul? The next break you ask the ref what you can do next time to avoid the foul call.

    If the raps want the 'we the north' thing to stick, you can't be whiny bitches. You play the game and take all the onus on yourselves. Eventually you will get the calls because you will earn the respect of the refs because if they aren't making the calls or if they're constantly making calls against you people will notice. You'll earn the respect of the media, players and coaches in the league and the league won't have a choice but to correct it.

    Like I said if people believe the conspiracy theories out there, they're going about it the wrong way.

  6. #65
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    I can't take this ref shit anymore. I got caught up in it before the game and when I was at the game but the way it's being discussed is wrong.

    Let's assume everything is true about the league and the refs purposefully fucking over the raps. BITCHING ABOUT IT MAKES IT WORSE.

    And it starts with Casey. If I'm Casey I tell every single player on my team that they are not to complain the the refs. You get hit on a drive and don't get the call? Get the Fuck back up and go play D. Don't even look at the refs to bail you out. You get called on a shit defensive foul? The next break you ask the ref what you can do next time to avoid the foul call.

    If the raps want the 'we the north' thing to stick, you can't be whiny bitches. You play the game and take all the onus on yourselves. Eventually you will get the calls because you will earn the respect of the refs because if they aren't making the calls or if they're constantly making calls against you people will notice. You'll earn the respect of the media, players and coaches in the league and the league won't have a choice but to correct it.

    Like I said if people believe the conspiracy theories out there, they're going about it the wrong way.
    That. And if the Raps didn't play like complete shit (aside from Valanciunas), then a few questionable calls wouldn't even matter. If you play well enough to win, then the refs can't beat you, no matter how much tinfoil you're wrapped in.

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  8. #66
    Raptors Republic Starter KHD's Avatar
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    Paul Jones on Tim&Sid right now, talking about referees.

    Pretty much the standard message of "just keep pushing the issue".

    I think all the NBA refs should be turfed, personally. I'd rather have shittier referees than referees who have favourite players.

  9. #67
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...nets-referees/

    So Tim Donaghy says the Raps crowd has to be a loud and obnoxious as possible in order to have a fair chance against the refs.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

    - Walter White

  10. #68
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...nets-referees/

    So Tim Donaghy says the Raps crowd has to be a loud and obnoxious as possible in order to have a fair chance against the refs.
    Hmmmm, I suppose "bullshit" chants aren't quite loud/obnoxious enough.....

    Although booing the refs during their introductions would be funny.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  11. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Hmmmm, I suppose "bullshit" chants aren't quite loud/obnoxious enough.....

    Although booing the refs during their introductions would be funny.
    Gotta do it all game long I guess lol
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

    - Walter White

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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...nets-referees/

    So Tim Donaghy says the Raps crowd has to be a loud and obnoxious as possible in order to have a fair chance against the refs.
    He basically said the nba is rigged

    He said the raptors are always going to be at a disadvantage because of this

    Then he basically said we are shitty fans and not as good as port lands

    We'll fuck him and let's kill it tonight at the game

    Goooo raptors fuck the netsss
    In Swag we Trust

    -Nick Young

  13. #71
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    Quote themasao wrote: View Post
    I took what he said to mean the following: there is a difference between conspiracy theories and personal bias. In the case of the NBA, we seem to have (perhaps even at an unintentional level) a pseudo combination of the two.

    Basically, the league and everyone else knows that refs can't call everything evenly all the time. There have to be points of emphasis (hand-checking, flopping, travelling off pump fakes but not on euro steps etc.) But when the league relays these to individual reffing teams before games, even if at an unintentional subliminal level, it seems entirely possible that they would create emphases that ultimately work to favor the veteran, big name, big market team.

    As Nilanka pointed out, Spurs are not a big market, nor do they necessarily have big names (although I'm not sure I agree with the latter point). I think the difference is that the Spurs are a superlative team. Moreover, they are a team that dominates primarily at the offensive end based on great ball movement and shooting (which can be hard to effect as a ref).

    I don't think that their perpetual success is proof that the league doesn't favor big name/big market players/teams. I think rather that they are a good example of how you can be good enough were the refs don't consistently affect you. The Raptors aren't at that level and that's why bad reffing can be so frustrating -- because we aren't good enough to overcome it. Not yet at least...
    Excellent point. The NBA obviously favours having big market teams advancing deeper in the playoffs but teams like San Antonio are good enough to overcome the referee tendencies. And like you mentioned, the referee bias unintentionally comes from the NBA emphasizing certain points; however, at the same time, there is some bias created by the NBA. For example, what stood out to was this quote:

    "The referees used to tell the younger referees that if Jordan goes to the hole and if there’s a crowd in there then just blow the whistle. That’s what the refs are programmed (to do) – to give that star player the benefit of the doubt. Even when he commits a foul, if you can give a foul to another player in that area – that’s what you’re told to do.”

    So perhaps the NBA is not directly telling the referees to give these stars, but it's something being done intentionally. Applied to our series against the Nets, that does not bode well.

  14. #72
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    zach lowe has something to say about superjudge's story about the illuminati rigging this series in favour of brooklyn

    The league cannot win. If it releases nothing about officiating, fans accuse it of hiding the truth. When it admits a mistake, fans ask why the league does not send out such releases about such-and-such other play that made them very angry. There are fans in Toronto, host of the 2016 All-Star Game, who actually think the league is conspiring against their team ó that Adam Silver is sitting in his office, thinking of ways for Toronto to lose.

    Look, studies have found evidence of star calls, especially in loose-ball situations in which a star collides with a nonstar. But there is contact on every single NBA possession. There were lots of instances in Game 1 of Toronto players making contact that went uncalled ó on both ends. Ditto for Brooklyn. The calls ended up tilting a bit Brooklynís way, but thatís not evidence of a grand conspiracy. Itís evidence of how hard it is to referee an NBA game, especially when things get more physical, and the impossibility of legislating out some of the game-to-game and quarter-to-quarter randomness of what constitutes a foul amid constant jostling.

    Get over it.
    i agree with zach lowe

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  16. #73
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    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    Hey chris...... you read much? or do you just pick out the parts you like and go from there?

    weak sauce
    i'm curious as to how the excerpt i quoted above so grossly misrepresents the point you were making in this thread.

    i'd also like to hear more of your ideas as to why it is in the nba's best interest to actively suppress a market that includes not only one fo the largest cities in north america, but potentially an entire country as well

  17. #74
    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    Quote Mr.Z wrote: View Post
    http://www.sportsnet.ca/basketball/n...nets-referees/

    So Tim Donaghy says the Raps crowd has to be a loud and obnoxious as possible in order to have a fair chance against the refs.
    Sportsnet is scraping the bottom of the barrel by dragging out Tim Donaghy to talk about basketball.

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  19. #75
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    officiating was way worse in that game but we still won.

    the refs may (maybe even will likely) screw us out of one yet - not because of some grand conspiracy, but just because they suck (as jimi cliff pointed out upthread), and vets/stars tend to get the benefit of the doubt. regardless the scrwing did not occur saturday

  20. #76
    Raptors Republic Superstar Superjudge's Avatar
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    I'm so bored with the lame as fuck "suck it up" attitude you idiots have.

    I'm bang on in my assesment of how toronto is treated. Its isn't new. It gets brought up all the time by people NOT in Toronto, in fact, Toronto people rarely do because nit wits like Lowe say the shit he said just now.

    Listen, Donaghy benefits ZERO from telling the truth. And it IS the truth. The shit the refs do is subtle.... it doesnt mean they can make the Nets beat the Raptors, it means the Raptors have their work cut out. Its tiresome when pollyanna forum people use some bullshit argument in my direction to try to dispute obvious market bias against our team. You speak to me as if I am some weak ass chump who knows little about the game, or the business of NBA basketball. fuck that noise, I played up into college, and I was a very aggressive and tough player..... that mindset is still there, and I dont, as a fan, intend to whine about shit...but when your team is getting fuckied, you need to speak up and take that power back. The Toronto media did it this time.... a few media outlets in the US did as well..... Casey did, Masai did, Patterson, Amir and DD did........ and guess what....... they got their way.


    Its now being watched.

    Its not as quiet now.


    So say what the fuck you want boys....,. fact is, you need to play harder in Toronto, and you need to make your wheel squeak. Its about time this was seriously spoken about.... and the Raps will benefit.

    for you guys wanting to take everything lying down..... thats fine, thats on you, you keep living in whatever utopia you live in. I live in the real world and see the situation clear as a bell. All the talk in the last few days has helped the raps chances.... dont think so...heh..... again, on you

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  22. #77
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    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    I'm bang on in my assesment of how toronto is treated. Its isn't new. It gets brought up all the time by people NOT in Toronto, in fact, Toronto people rarely do because nit wits like Lowe say the shit he said just now.
    who the fuck outside of toronto is talking bout the gigantic conspiracy against the raptors?

    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    Listen, Donaghy benefits ZERO from telling the truth. And it IS the truth.
    tim donaghy has absolutely everything to gain from tarring the rest of nba with the same brush, not the least of which is restoring his reputation (EGO) and selling a shitload of books (PROFIT)


    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    The Toronto media did it this time.... a few media outlets in the US did as well..... Casey did, Masai did, Patterson, Amir and DD did........ and guess what....... they got their way.
    did you watch the game? to what end did they benefit tonight? they got way more fucked by the refs than on saturday

  23. #78
    Raptors Republic All-Star Axel's Avatar
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    My thought on Tim Donaghy is simple, he's an obnoxious loud mouth, but that doesn't mean he doesn't speak some truth (see Jose Canseco). He may have a point in regards to the refs getting shown certain things to look for on game-day that benefits one team more than the other. I dont think that necessarily means there is a grand conspiracy though. He can have some valid points while still being an obnoxious loud mouth.

    I'd the truth may range in the 15-45% range of everything he says.
    F*ck Brooklyn

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