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Thread: The Nets Bad Karma & My Salmons Disdain!

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    Default The Nets Bad Karma & My Salmons Disdain!

    I know right now everybody has their targets locked on DeRozan and rightfully so, his bad choices and disappearing act cost us the game but I believe he'll come back strong this series and deep down I think we'll gut it out against these aging dirty ball playing prima donnas. I mean karmically it just wouldn't be right to allow super prick KG, pompous Deron Williams (who crumpled to the floor like he got shot after being grazed yesterday, this the very same guy who forced the legendary Jerry Sloan into retirement) and Jason Kidd (the first coach ever in NBA history to stage a water spillage for a timeout) to beat such a heart & soul team like the Raptors. If the basketball Gods are pure they won't allow this to happen, even if the refs tip the favor in the direction of the evil Nets.

    Before I digress too far though the real reason for this post is to discuss my disgust for everything John Salmons. When Salmons first came here I was genuinely excited and thought he would be a great addition which he was for a time, defensively and offensively he was doing everything a veteran of his caliber should be doing off the bench. The world wasn't expected of him and it was a perfect mutual situation for him and the team, but then at some point his D started to slip and his ball handling gaffes started to pile up along with the amount of bricks he was putting up. At first I thought it was a temporary lapse and he would pull out of this tailspin but he just kept nose diving even further which finally culminated in him single-handedly losing games (see OKC 03/21/14). After this game it was apparent to everybody on planet earth not named Dwayne Casey that this was a man who'd lost his confidence and was no longer useful in any way whatsoever to this team. Like it was for everyone else, that game was the tipping point for me too and now I'm literally nauseous at the sight of John Salmons. Every time I see him make an errant pass, dumb foul, or do a pump fake when he's wide open only to allow the defender to close in and then throw up a brick I feel an absolute rage come over me!! This guy is so lost out there but what really bugs me is his lack of emotion on and off the court, I'm starting to think he's a robot. I'm usually not like this with athletes, for the most part I get the slumps and highs & lows they go through but there's something about Salmons I simply can't stomach anymore..
    Last edited by Raps76; Sun Apr 20th, 2014 at 12:57 PM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star BigCamB's Avatar
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    I was the opposite, when Salmons first arrived I wasn't excited/hopeful at all, but he proved to greatly exceed my expectations by being valuable for quite a while on both ends. Apparently he has a history of performing well after trades but I never paid much attention to that.

    We all know he's been absolutely shocking offensively for a good while now, and he had the choke vs OKC which didn't help people's opinion of him but for the most part he was still playing very solid defense every night.

    Sadly, last night, his defense deserted him as well and he was completely useless on both ends. Ugh. Ross simply has to stay out of foul trouble to keep him off the court, but I dunno if that will happen.

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    I can't stand the sight of him to be honest, I heard that he's done this everywhere too and then the fans always turn on him. I think he's just way too inside of his own head and should just play off of his instinct more, he's constantly second guessing himself out there. Frankly I'm surprised he isn't getting booed more at this point..

    Yeah I agree about Ross, he had a poor night. If both he & DD struggle it makes for a very long night
    Last edited by Raps76; Sun Apr 20th, 2014 at 01:00 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    I can't for the life of me understand Casey's infatuation with Salmons. It boggles my mind that so many people can see his lack of production and usefulness on D and yet the head coach of an NBA playoff team continues to "ride his veteran". In today's game of advanced stats, analytics and video, explaining your decisions as simply "he's a veteran, and I trust him" just doesn't cut it. I personally think that experience is so far overrated in pro sports, it's almost laughable. Skill should always outweigh "years played".
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Totally agree, also on top of that if someone has the skillset but has completely lost their confidence they should be benched instead of being a continual liability. You see that in Football without any hesitation and the player usually comes back focused and hungry. I don't know what Casey's rationale is for this unless Salmon's taking care of his dry cleaning and washing his car every weekend.

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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    I can't for the life of me understand Casey's infatuation with Salmons. It boggles my mind that so many people can see his lack of production and usefulness on D and yet the head coach of an NBA playoff team continues to "ride his veteran". In today's game of advanced stats, analytics and video, explaining your decisions as simply "he's a veteran, and I trust him" just doesn't cut it. I personally think that experience is so far overrated in pro sports, it's almost laughable. Skill should always outweigh "years played".
    Casey is old school, advanced stats and analytics takes a backseat to his intuitions and for some strange reasons he continues to go with Salmons who looks every bit of a player who should probably retire by the end of the season.

    We all saw what Landry can do when healthy and giving his salary and what he can do its rather a shameful waste to let him rot on the bench in favor of Salmons (who can't score, defend Pierce/Johnson or dribble) and Novak (who can't defend anybody or dribble and on occasions hit the three but can't do much else).

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Default The Nets Bad Karma & My Salmons Disdain!

    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    I can't for the life of me understand Casey's infatuation with Salmons. It boggles my mind that so many people can see his lack of production and usefulness on D and yet the head coach of an NBA playoff team continues to "ride his veteran". In today's game of advanced stats, analytics and video, explaining your decisions as simply "he's a veteran, and I trust him" just doesn't cut it. I personally think that experience is so far overrated in pro sports, it's almost laughable. Skill should always outweigh "years played".
    Overrated??? Experience is what beat the raptors in the first round. We played poorly because we were nervous. We played poorly because most likely some of the newer blood were thrown off by the malfunctioning shot clock. Derozan even admitted it, as much as he'd like to play it off. Ross lacking experience is what got him into early foul trouble.

    Salmons should be removed due to other factors, but to call experience overrated is simply naive and ridiculous.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Mon Apr 21st, 2014 at 01:18 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Mess's Avatar
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    You slipped up and said first round when you meant to say first game.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    Overrated??? Experience is what beat the raptors in the first round. We played poorly because we were nervous. We played poorly because most likely some of the newer blood were thrown off by the malfunctioning shot clock. Derozan even admitted it, as much as he'd like to play it off. Ross lacking experience is what got him into early foul trouble.

    Salmons should be removed due to other factors, but to call experience overrated is simply naive and ridiculous.
    I know you meant to say first game, so I won't harp on that. Here is where my issue with experience lies: it is immeasurable and based on opinion. Your statement is not fact. I disagree that experience is why they lost the game and why the Nets won the game. Of course they were nervous, but the Nets probably were too. The Nets had better ball movement, hustled hard on D, ran better sets than we did, had better lineups and substitutions, and hit more open shots. Those are all measurable reasons why the Raptors lost.

    Ross lacking experience cant be the sole reason for his early foul trouble. Again that is an assumption. He came out aggressive and got whistled for one bad call, and got caught the 2nd time. Our "newer blood" being "thrown off" by a shot clock malfunction, again is an assumption and cannot be proven. Calling my opinion naive and ridiculous doesn't help your case either. If you had shown me some measure of how I'm wrong it would be a different story, but you only provided your opinion as fact, which is not a legit argument.

    Dame Lillard played his first playoff game last night and was incredible. Aldridge has only 18 games of playoff experience and completely dominated. James Harden is considered one of the best SGs in the league and has 49 games of playoff experience and he was shutdown and played his usual bad D. Houston is considered a vet team and collapsed at home down the stretch and ran a poor play for the game winning shot that failed. When the play broke down, those "vets" should have been able to recognize it and come up with a better shot, according to your logic.

    Terry Stots completely out coached Kevin McHale down the stretch. Stots only has 5 games of playoff coaching experience. McHale has 6 games playoff coaching experience and 169 playoff games played!
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    A 38-year old Vince Carter would be a noticeable upgrade over Salmons. Just saying....
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote Raps76 wrote: View Post
    Totally agree, also on top of that if someone has the skillset but has completely lost their confidence they should be benched instead of being a continual liability. You see that in Football without any hesitation and the player usually comes back focused and hungry. I don't know what Casey's rationale is for this unless Salmon's taking care of his dry cleaning and washing his car every weekend.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
    Absolutely agree with the bold. This is one area of player development that is often misunderstood. Most people think that players need to learn from their mistakes on the court which again, isn't proven to be effective. Doing the wrong thing over and over again when there are consequences does not produce improvement. Perfect practice in a setting that allows diagnosis of mistakes, time and knowledge to rectify them is what produces better results.

    This is what especially irks me about Salmons' minutes. It is very apparent that he does not matchup well against the Nets. He is slower, smaller, and not enough of an offensive threat (i.e. Novak) to warrant time on the court. He has proven to be a poor inbounder of the ball, and has occasionally given up open shots to penetrate, leave his feet and be forced to make a difficult, high-risk pass. Expecting better results simply because he's played a lot of NBA games should be the exact reason WHY he's benched. If he's not making good decisions or producing at this point in his career, it's very unlikely that he'll improve much, or change his game for the better.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    I know you meant to say first game, so I won't harp on that. Here is where my issue with experience lies: it is immeasurable and based on opinion. Your statement is not fact. I disagree that experience is why they lost the game and why the Nets won the game. Of course they were nervous, but the Nets probably were too. The Nets had better ball movement, hustled hard on D, ran better sets than we did, had better lineups and substitutions, and hit more open shots. Those are all measurable reasons why the Raptors lost.

    Ross lacking experience cant be the sole reason for his early foul trouble. Again that is an assumption. He came out aggressive and got whistled for one bad call, and got caught the 2nd time. Our "newer blood" being "thrown off" by a shot clock malfunction, again is an assumption and cannot be proven. Calling my opinion naive and ridiculous doesn't help your case either. If you had shown me some measure of how I'm wrong it would be a different story, but you only provided your opinion as fact, which is not a legit argument.

    Dame Lillard played his first playoff game last night and was incredible. Aldridge has only 18 games of playoff experience and completely dominated. James Harden is considered one of the best SGs in the league and has 49 games of playoff experience and he was shutdown and played his usual bad D. Houston is considered a vet team and collapsed at home down the stretch and ran a poor play for the game winning shot that failed. When the play broke down, those "vets" should have been able to recognize it and come up with a better shot, according to your logic.

    Terry Stots completely out coached Kevin McHale down the stretch. Stots only has 5 games of playoff coaching experience. McHale has 6 games playoff coaching experience and 169 playoff games played!
    first of all, no one is saying that EXPERIENCE ALONE wins or loses games, but its obviously a factor.

    using portland as an example of a 'newbie' team with no experience isn't saying much either. lillard just has it and has been clutch hitting big shots all year. we dont have that on our team. we're talking about the best of the best here. and despite derozan making all-star this year, hes just not part of that elite group (yet, if ever). he stated himself that the shot clock issue was throwing the team off. maybe hes lying, but i can only go so far as to quote players directly to back that up.

    JV stepped up huge obviously, despite the lack of experience.

    aldridge 'only' playing 18 playoff games is weird and using baiting language to hide the fact that he's been to 4 playoff berths already. thats hardly inexperience.

    also, the houston vs portland game was INSANE and easily the best we've seen in the first round so far. that game was WAY tighter than the nets vs raptors 1st game, despite the score.

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    Quote Mess wrote: View Post
    You slipped up and said first round when you meant to say first game.
    yep i did.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    first of all, no one is saying that EXPERIENCE ALONE wins or loses games, but its obviously a factor.

    using portland as an example of a 'newbie' team with no experience isn't saying much either. lillard just has it and has been clutch hitting big shots all year. we dont have that on our team. we're talking about the best of the best here. and despite derozan making all-star this year, hes just not part of that elite group (yet, if ever). he stated himself that the shot clock issue was throwing the team off. maybe hes lying, but i can only go so far as to quote players directly to back that up.

    JV stepped up huge obviously, despite the lack of experience.

    aldridge 'only' playing 18 playoff games is weird and using baiting language to hide the fact that he's been to 4 playoff berths already. thats hardly inexperience.

    also, the houston vs portland game was INSANE and easily the best we've seen in the first round so far. that game was WAY tighter than the nets vs raptors 1st game, despite the score.
    Re: the first bold, what is the "it" that Lillard has? Another immeasurable observation. I would say he has elite skill. That's why he was successful yesterday.

    Re: the second bold, I didn't bait anything. 18 playoff games is not a lot of experience. Especially since they're all in the first round. Again, skill is why he was successful.

    I also never debated your DeRozan post as there is evidence that he said it bothered him.

    You haven't offered any counter to my argument that experience is overrated. You're simply trying to denounce my evidence through more opinion.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    Re: the first bold, what is the "it" that Lillard has? Another immeasurable observation. I would say he has elite skill. That's why he was successful yesterday.

    Re: the second bold, I didn't bait anything. 18 playoff games is not a lot of experience. Especially since they're all in the first round. Again, skill is why he was successful.

    I also never debated your DeRozan post as there is evidence that he said it bothered him.

    You haven't offered any counter to my argument that experience is overrated. You're simply trying to denounce my evidence through more opinion.
    oh ok. so every opinion you just presented is 'factual' but everything i said was just opinion. well this is going to go nowhere then.

    lets just leave it as this. the LACK OF EXPERIENCE definitely hurt the raptors, due in part to our skill level being not high enough to compensate.

    meanwhile, portland has some serious elite players and DESPITE some lack of experience, they make up for it through skill.

    but i still say saying experience is overrated is just bizarre. theres a reason why doing something over and over again makes you better. if that doesn't count for anything then all rookies/sophomores should never really improve over the years then.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Mon Apr 21st, 2014 at 12:24 PM.

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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    Re: the first bold, what is the "it" that Lillard has? Another immeasurable observation. I would say he has elite skill. That's why he was successful yesterday.

    .
    Poise.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    oh ok. so every opinion you just presented is 'factual' but everything i said was just opinion. well this is going to go nowhere then.

    lets just leave it as this. the LACK OF EXPERIENCE definitely hurt the raptors, due in part to our skill level being not high enough to compensate.

    meanwhile, portland has some serious elite players and DESPITE some lack of experience, they make up for it through skill.

    but i still say saying experience is overrated is just bizarre. theres a reason why doing something over and over again makes you better. if that doesn't count for anything then all rookies/sophomores should never really improve over the years then.
    This really is going nowhere, but this is just more opinion. Simply playing in playoff games has no bearing on becoming a better playoff performer. Your point about rookies and sophomores is another general statement. There are lots of players that don't improve over the years despite receiving playing time early in their careers. Improvement does not come from experiencing situations. It comes from making weaknesses become strengths. Zero playoff experience is not a weakness. It might hinder strengths to some degree (nerves, intimidation, things you pointed out), but it's something we've created and assumed to make sense of poor outcomes.

    Your point about Portland is the exact point I'm trying to make. Skill set should be the priority when deciding lineups whether it's the playoffs or the first game of the season. If you have better players with more skill, let them play. If experience is such a big factor, then let's grab a bunch of guys out of retirement with huge playoff resumes. They won't be able to run or jump, but at least Casey will trust them to "make veteran decisions"!
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote BigCamB wrote: View Post
    Poise.
    Again, what is poise? It's an innate characteristic that can't be measured or understood. It's an assumption used to explain an outcome. Does John Salmons have poise? How do you get more poise? Does experience guarantee poise?

    All I'm getting at is Casey needs to control the things he can. Matchups, defensive strategies, minute management, timeouts, after timeout plays etc.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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    Quote RobertArchibald wrote: View Post
    Again, what is poise? It's an innate characteristic that can't be measured or understood. It's an assumption used to explain an outcome. Does John Salmons have poise? How do you get more poise? Does experience guarantee poise?

    All I'm getting at is Casey needs to control the things he can. Matchups, defensive strategies, minute management, timeouts, after timeout plays etc.
    Pretty obvious and easy to read actually. Lillard is always assured and in control. His demeanour never changes, he's never too up or down emotionally and he never appears to get flustered regardless of what is happening around him. That is poise. He's young but very mature. This gives him a great chance to utilise his skills in the most pressure situations (playoffs, crunch time etc) despite his young age.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie RobertArchibald's Avatar
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    Quote BigCamB wrote: View Post
    Pretty obvious and easy to read actually. Lillard is always assured and in control. His demeanour never changes, he's never too up or down emotionally and he never appears to get flustered regardless of what is happening around him. That is poise. He's young but very mature. This gives him a great chance to utilise his skills in the most pressure situations (playoffs, crunch time etc) despite his young age.
    Again, I think you're missing my point. Your description of poise is great, albeit it is an opinion. Which is basically my argument with Casey's choice of riding Salmons. It's his opinion that Salmons has these innate abilities that you might call poise. These abilities can't be proven and even if they could, there is no proof of their positive effect on performance. They are assumptions that fans make to understand outcomes. For every example of a veteran being poised in a clutch moment, I can counter with one of a rookie rushing and making an out of control shot based on skill alone. Pressure situations are the same thing, something that's been created. I'm not saying it isn't there, just that it shouldn't warrant a veteran presence of a more skilled option is all.
    There's math, and everything else is debatable.

    @clericalbeats

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