NBA & Refs in Playoffs - RR Conspiracy Theory thread

[Raptorsnz]

they were all charges. please tell me why you think they werent'. use the rule book too ok.

I dont think you have a clue what youre talking about. ever taken a charge, like, a real one, in a real game?

You complain about everything being offensive then you go and say this? Are you serious?

[Primer]

But if they wanted to be biased they could've called them blocking fouls, it wouldn't have been any more egregious of a call then any of the other bad calls in the series. Calling a foul on that D-Will drive at the end of Game 3 didn't cause that big a stink and that was a bad call.

Why do you believe it's obvious when it happens for us and it's biased when it happens against us? Why is it more plausible for you to believe that it's a well coordinated command coming from up high and not just mistakes being made by people in a high pressure job?

You're avoiding addressing my main point. Which is the obvious mugging of JV under the basket, the htting DD and Lowry in the face, ect... I'm talking about the no calls, which are plainly obvious on the TNT feed and even pointed out by the announcing crew "Oh wow, looks like they missed that push by Garnett". I can't respond to a post that completely ignored mine and just repeated the same stuff you've being saying all thread.

I'm not trying to split hairs on blocking/charge calls. I'm talking about obvious fouls right in front of the refs that they are actively ignoring, despite being 2 feet away looking right at it.

They make one correct charge call and you guys try to use it as proof the refs aren't biased. Fucking unbelievable.

[stooley]

You're avoiding addressing my main point. Which is the obvious mugging of JV under the basket, the htting DD and Lowry in the face, ect... I'm talking about the no calls, which are plainly obvious on the TNT feed and even pointed out by the announcing crew "Oh wow, looks like they missed that push by Garnett". I can't respond to a post that completely ignored mine and just repeated the same stuff you've being saying all thread.

I'm not trying to split hairs on blocking/charge calls. I'm talking about obvious fouls right in front of the refs that they are actively ignoring, despite being 2 feet away looking right at it.

They make one correct charge call and you guys try to use it as proof the refs aren't biased. Fucking unbelievable.

Well I'm gonna go ahead and say that the burden of proof should be on you, given the many incentives related to not turning the league into a giant fraud.

A few missed calls are just that. Some calls get missed.

It's hardly proof for bias. Unless you can demonstrate a consistent trend in which calls for us are ignored and calls for Brooklyn are exaggerated, I don't buy the bias.

Picking out a few calls and pointing to them as you say "see, bias", is called using anecdotal evidence.

Personally, I think it's much more likely given the context that those calls are mistakes as opposed to a leaguewide conspiracy (which would necessarily involve either Tim Leiweke or Rogers and Bell, given that the commish works for the owners).

I'd add: if you're able to demonstrate that, I'd recommend sending it in to sportsnet, the globe, tsn and the sun, I'm sure you'd get paid well, even if you only show a clear bias in this one series. If a reporter were to uncover a leaguewide conspiracy, he'd make bank.

[stooley]

I know I'll regret posting this... but I have a problem with impulse control.

People keep saying that the league has an incentive to fix series.

That's absurdity!

Let's take a look at that from a game theory perspective (which deals with rational thought, decision making and maximizing payoffs).

What is the extra payoff for Brooklyn advancing? 1% of the league's annual revenue? I'd say that's being generous.

What is the loss if evidence is ever uncovered of WWE match fixing? Probably close to 80% of the league's total value. At the very, very least, 50%.

So to decide whether it is profitable to set up a top down conspiracy, the league has to assume (using very generous figures in both circumstances) that there is less than a 2% chance that anyone ever finds out about it.

If that conspiracy were to exist, necessarily, refs and owners would have to be a part of it.

So, under what circumstances could that information be revealed? If Donald Sterling is treated, in his mind, too harshly, does he talk? If any other owners become disgruntled over unfair treatment of their franchise, do they talk (probably not, but they could use it as leverage with the league, to either erase the conspiracy or be on the favourable end of it).

In 2013-2014, the following people were official NBA referees:

No. 6 Tony Brown (12th Season)
No. 7 Derrick Stafford (26th Season)
No. 8 Marc Davis (16th Season)
No. 10 Ron Garretson (27th Season)
No. 11 Derrick Collins (13th Season)
No. 12 Violet Palmer (17th Season)
No. 13 Monty McCutchen (21st Season)
No. 14 Ed Malloy (12th Season)
No. 15 Bennett Salvatore (32nd Season)
No. 16 David Guthrie (9th Season)
No. 17 Joe Crawford (37th Season)
No. 18 Matt Boland (11th Season)
No. 19 James Capers (19th Season)
No. 20 Leroy Richardson (19th Season)
No. 22 Bill Spooner (25th Season)
No. 23 Jason Phillips (14th Season)
No. 24 Mike Callahan (24th Season)
No. 25 Tony Brothers (20th Season)
No. 26 Pat Fraher (13th Season)
No. 27 Dick Bavetta (39th Season)
No. 28 Zach Zarba (11th Season)
No. 29 Mark Lindsay (7th Season)
No. 30 John Goble (7th Season)
No. 31 Scott Wall (19th Season)
No. 32 Eddie F. Rush (27th Season)
No. 33 Sean Corbin (19th Season)
No. 34 Kevin Cutler (4th Season)
No. 35 Kane Fitzgerald (5th Season)
No. 36 David Jones (25th Season)
No. 37 Eric Dalen (6th Season)
No. 38 Michael Smith (21st Season)
No. 40 Leon Wood (18th Season)
No. 41 Ken Mauer (28th Season)
No. 42 Eric Lewis (10th Season)
No. 43 Dan Crawford (29th Season)
No. 44 Eli Roe (9th Season)
No. 45 Brian Forte (7th Season)
No. 46 Ben Taylor (1st Season)
No. 47 Bennie Adams (19th Season)
No. 48 Scott Foster (20th Season)
No. 49 Tom Washington (23rd Season)
No. 50 Olandis Poole (10th Season)
No. 52 Scott Twardoski (3rd Season)
No. 54 Nick Buchert (4th Season)
No. 55 Bill Kennedy (16th Season)
No. 56 Mark Ayotte (10th Season)
No. 58 Josh Tiven (4th Season)
No. 59 Gary Zielinski (13th Season)
No. 60 James Williams (4th Season)
No. 61 Courtney Kirkland (14th Season)
No. 63 Derek Richardson (17th Season)
No. 65 Sean Wright (9th Season)
No. 66 Haywoode Workman (6th Season)
No. 68 Marat Kogut (5th Season)
No. 70 Brent Barnaky (4th Season)
No. 71 Rodney Mott (17th Season)
No. 72 J.T. Orr (3rd Season)
No. 73 Tre Maddox (3rd Season)
No. 74 Curtis Blair (6th Season)
No. 76 Steve Anderson (1st Season)
No. 77 Karl Lane (3rd Season)
No. 79 Kevin Scott (3rd Season)

That's a lot of people to keep happy for the rest of their lives.

Even an angry wife, disgruntled girlfriend, mistreated intern etc, could easily access evidence of this if they were so inclined.

Given that the NSA couldn't keep Edward Snowden quiet, how confident is the NBA? Probably less than 98%.

Supposedly, this conspiracy happens either incredibly frequently every year, or the Raptors are the sole target, both of which force me to stretch my suspension of disbelief even further.

[3inthekeon]

To further stooleys point, why would NBA owners, the majority of whom are NOT large market teams that would benefit from this conspiracy, allow such a thing to happen? Having money stolen from their pockets is simply not something they would allow.

[Primer]

Well I'm gonna go ahead and say that the burden of proof should be on you, given the many incentives related to not turning the league into a giant fraud.

A few missed calls are just that. Some calls get missed.

It's hardly proof for bias. Unless you can demonstrate a consistent trend in which calls for us are ignored and calls for Brooklyn are exaggerated, I don't buy the bias.

Picking out a few calls and pointing to them as you say "see, bias", is called using anecdotal evidence.

Personally, I think it's much more likely given the context that those calls are mistakes as opposed to a leaguewide conspiracy (which would necessarily involve either Tim Leiweke or Rogers and Bell, given that the commish works for the owners).

I'd add: if you're able to demonstrate that, I'd recommend sending it in to sportsnet, the globe, tsn and the sun, I'm sure you'd get paid well, even if you only show a clear bias in this one series. If a reporter were to uncover a leaguewide conspiracy, he'd make bank.

So the only way I'm convincing you is by releasing a 3 hour investigative documentary? That's not the least bit unreasonable.....

Be in the game thread for the next game and I'll try to point out as much as I can during the game. I don't have time to do a Tim W. War and Peace style novel on the refs during this series (speaking of which, Tim W. seems like the perfect guy to do the insane amounts of research you're calling for above).

[stooley]

So the only way I'm convincing you is by releasing a 3 hour investigative documentary? That's not the least bit unreasonable.....

Be in the game thread for the next game and I'll try to point out as much as I can during the game. I don't have time to do a Tim W. War and Peace style novel on the refs during this series (speaking of which, Tim W. seems like the perfect guy to do the insane amounts of research you're calling for above).

That's completely fair. But do you think that Raptors fans, including yourself, might just be a little biased in discussing calls that went against the raptors.

Like are you really that confident that you're approaching this from a completely objective, unbiased point of view? Be honest.

edit: I sometimes like to watch Fox News, and I tend to spot the same logical mistakes that they make in some other arguments. We can get into the whole Libyan Embassy conspiracy, but, again, there is a simple, much more likely explanation out there which doesn't serve the broadcaster's interest.

[Primer]

I know I'll regret posting this... but I have a problem with impulse control.

People keep saying that the league has an incentive to fix series.

That's absurdity!

Let's take a look at that from a game theory perspective (which deals with rational thought, decision making and maximizing payoffs).

What is the extra payoff for Brooklyn advancing? 1% of the league's annual revenue? I'd say that's being generous.

What is the loss if evidence is ever uncovered of WWE match fixing? Probably close to 80% of the league's total value. At the very, very least, 50%.

So to decide whether it is profitable to set up a top down conspiracy, the league has to assume (using very generous figures in both circumstances) that there is less than a 2% chance that anyone ever finds out about it.

If that conspiracy were to exist, necessarily, refs and owners would have to be a part of it.

So, under what circumstances could that information be revealed? If Donald Sterling is treated, in his mind, too harshly, does he talk? If any other owners become disgruntled over unfair treatment of their franchise, do they talk (probably not, but they could use it as leverage with the league, to either erase the conspiracy or be on the favourable end of it).

In 2013-2014, the following people were official NBA referees:

No. 6 Tony Brown (12th Season)
No. 7 Derrick Stafford (26th Season)
No. 8 Marc Davis (16th Season)
No. 10 Ron Garretson (27th Season)
No. 11 Derrick Collins (13th Season)
No. 12 Violet Palmer (17th Season)
No. 13 Monty McCutchen (21st Season)
No. 14 Ed Malloy (12th Season)
No. 15 Bennett Salvatore (32nd Season)
No. 16 David Guthrie (9th Season)
No. 17 Joe Crawford (37th Season)
No. 18 Matt Boland (11th Season)
No. 19 James Capers (19th Season)
No. 20 Leroy Richardson (19th Season)
No. 22 Bill Spooner (25th Season)
No. 23 Jason Phillips (14th Season)
No. 24 Mike Callahan (24th Season)
No. 25 Tony Brothers (20th Season)
No. 26 Pat Fraher (13th Season)
No. 27 Dick Bavetta (39th Season)
No. 28 Zach Zarba (11th Season)
No. 29 Mark Lindsay (7th Season)
No. 30 John Goble (7th Season)
No. 31 Scott Wall (19th Season)
No. 32 Eddie F. Rush (27th Season)
No. 33 Sean Corbin (19th Season)
No. 34 Kevin Cutler (4th Season)
No. 35 Kane Fitzgerald (5th Season)
No. 36 David Jones (25th Season)
No. 37 Eric Dalen (6th Season)
No. 38 Michael Smith (21st Season)
No. 40 Leon Wood (18th Season)
No. 41 Ken Mauer (28th Season)
No. 42 Eric Lewis (10th Season)
No. 43 Dan Crawford (29th Season)
No. 44 Eli Roe (9th Season)
No. 45 Brian Forte (7th Season)
No. 46 Ben Taylor (1st Season)
No. 47 Bennie Adams (19th Season)
No. 48 Scott Foster (20th Season)
No. 49 Tom Washington (23rd Season)
No. 50 Olandis Poole (10th Season)
No. 52 Scott Twardoski (3rd Season)
No. 54 Nick Buchert (4th Season)
No. 55 Bill Kennedy (16th Season)
No. 56 Mark Ayotte (10th Season)
No. 58 Josh Tiven (4th Season)
No. 59 Gary Zielinski (13th Season)
No. 60 James Williams (4th Season)
No. 61 Courtney Kirkland (14th Season)
No. 63 Derek Richardson (17th Season)
No. 65 Sean Wright (9th Season)
No. 66 Haywoode Workman (6th Season)
No. 68 Marat Kogut (5th Season)
No. 70 Brent Barnaky (4th Season)
No. 71 Rodney Mott (17th Season)
No. 72 J.T. Orr (3rd Season)
No. 73 Tre Maddox (3rd Season)
No. 74 Curtis Blair (6th Season)
No. 76 Steve Anderson (1st Season)
No. 77 Karl Lane (3rd Season)
No. 79 Kevin Scott (3rd Season)

That's a lot of people to keep happy for the rest of their lives.

Even an angry wife, disgruntled girlfriend, mistreated intern etc, could easily access evidence of this if they were so inclined.

Given that the NSA couldn't keep Edward Snowden quiet, how confident is the NBA? Probably less than 98%.

Supposedly, this conspiracy happens either incredibly frequently every year, or the Raptors are the sole target, both of which force me to stretch my suspension of disbelief even further.

The bold is false. Only ones that need to be in on it are Stern (now Silver), and the head refs. We're talking 5-10 people total. Donnaghy was fixing games as a one man show, but somehow everyone including the waterboy has to be in on it? Right.......

Owners would be someone the league has every incentive to keep out of it. Mark Cuban was openly screaming at David Stern "Fuck You! Fuck you! Your league is rigged" during the 2006 NBA Finals. Cuban later denied doing this, but was fined $250K by the league, which means he did do it, and was told to shut up afterwards.

[Raptorsnz]

The bold is false. Only ones that need to be in on it are Stern (now Silver), and the head refs. We're talking 5-10 people total. Donnaghy was fixing games as a one man show, but somehow everyone including the waterboy has to be in on it? Right.......

Owners would be someone the league has every incentive to keep out of it. Mark Cuban was openly screaming at David Stern "Fuck You! Fuck you! Your league is rigged" during the 2006 NBA Finals. Cuban later denied doing this, but was fined $250K by the league, which means he did do it, and was told to shut up afterwards.

That doesn't mean it's true, it's just obviously a very bad look if an owner is openly accusing the NBA of rigging.

[stooley]

The bold is false. Only ones that need to be in on it are Stern (now Silver), and the head refs. We're talking 5-10 people total. Donnaghy was fixing games as a one man show, but somehow everyone including the waterboy has to be in on it? Right.......

Owners would be someone the league has every incentive to keep out of it. Mark Cuban was openly screaming at David Stern "Fuck You! Fuck you! Your league is rigged" during the 2006 NBA Finals. Cuban later denied doing this, but was fined $250K by the league, which means he did do it, and was told to shut up afterwards.

Ok - let me suspend my disbelief for a second.

I'd imagine the head refs are being told to do that directly from Adam Silver in your scenario, so they either comply or lose their job.

What incentive is there for Adam Silver to earn that extra smidgeon of league income?

It doesn't go to him, he doesn't get a bigger bonus, and he's going to keep his job regardless (unless the owners find out, in which case he loses it).

[Letter N]

Ok - let me suspend my disbelief for a second.

I'd imagine the head refs are being told to do that directly from Adam Silver in your scenario, so they either comply or lose their job.

What incentive is there for Adam Silver to earn that extra smidgeon of league income?

It doesn't go to him, he doesn't get a bigger bonus, and he's going to keep his job regardless (unless the owners find out, in which case he loses it).

EXACTLY

The Commissioner isn't get the money directly, he'd probably see a small raise (percentage wise) over 5 years even if the most perfect TV matchup happened every single time. Why risk his job, his freedom (yes jail time would be a possibility) and the wrath of billionaires for a 5% raise????

If what you're arguing requires a supervillain type level of thinking then it's probably not what's happening.

[Primer]

Ok - let me suspend my disbelief for a second.

I'd imagine the head refs are being told to do that directly from Adam Silver in your scenario, so they either comply or lose their job.

What incentive is there for Adam Silver to earn that extra smidgeon of league income?

It doesn't go to him, he doesn't get a bigger bonus, and he's going to keep his job regardless (unless the owners find out, in which case he loses it).

You think Stern's pay wasn't tied you league revenue then you're nuts. Why would he bother with global expansion, other than to make the league more money, and thereby himself more money?

Stern was paid over $20 million per year, and nobody even really knew how much he was paid.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/e...48484/31035301

[Primer]

I'm guessing most of you haven't bothered with Donnaghy's book, but you really should check it out if you want to understand how and why the NBA would do this. Here's a link to excerpts which explains a lot of what I've been talking about.

http://deadspin.com/5392067/excerpts...nt-you-to-read

[Primer]

EXACTLY

The Commissioner isn't get the money directly, he'd probably see a small raise (percentage wise) over 5 years even if the most perfect TV matchup happened every single time. Why risk his job, his freedom (yes jail time would be a possibility) and the wrath of billionaires for a 5% raise????

If what you're arguing requires a supervillain type level of thinking then it's probably not what's happening.

Jail time is not a possibility. There is nothing illegal about what the league is doing. Please tell me which law you think is being violated by instructing refs to make or not make certain calls before a game?

[Letter N]

You think Stern's pay wasn't tied you league revenue then you're nuts. Why would he bother with global expansion, other than to make the league more money, and thereby himself more money?

Stern was paid over $20 million per year, and nobody even really knew how much he was paid.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/e...48484/31035301

Ok explain this.
If it's so obvious to the random fan, why would MLSE just stand by and let millions of dollars be lost without ever investigating it or taking Stern/Silver and the NBA to court? That's actual money being lost by them. And if it's a league wide thing it's actual money being lost by roughly 3/4th of the league's teams. Why not look into it more, why not call out the NBA, especially when your team is being taken away from you (Seattle, Vancouver, Sacramento)?