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Thread: Why "selling high" on DeMar doesn't make sense

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    I have absolutely no qualms with people disagreeing with me. Circle jerks are usually only enjoyable for a short time.

    What I do have a problem with though is people attempting to disagree with me on what they THINK is my opinion.

    Opinions evolve and many of my own have proven incorrect while others have been shaped by opinions of those on this very forum who held different opinions than my own.
    Well you're being a huge hypocrite then, because that's exactly what you did to me in this post.

    My frustration stems from half truths, selectivity in replies to my posts, and an inability of many DeRozan fanboys to grasp the concept that the raptors are better with DeRozan playing within the team versus playing 1 on 5.... And by the way you're one of the worst offenders.
    I have never said that DeRozan isos are better than him playing team-ball, so this is just made up. If you were to look at the "Everything DeMar DeRozan" thread you would see that I said game 5 was his best game of the series. Sharing the ball effectively and playing within the team are more conducive to winning than DD doing it on his own, I have never disagreed with that. I think where the problem lies is in the extent to which DD can actually play within the offence and not have to force anything. He was able to do so in game 5 because Lowry (and even Jonas) was torching Brooklyn, which meant DD didn't have to do as much scoring-wise or forcing shots. Let's not forget that Lowry hasn't really shot that well in this series prior to game 5, so DeRozan hasn't just been shooting a lot because he feels like it.

    I think DeRozan generally does play well within the offence as long as everyone is contributing on that end. Unfortunately, if there's a slip-up or lessened contribution from another key player, he has to force his offence more. And since DeRozan isn't LeBron or Durant, you generally don't want him having to do that. That's why I think DeMar would be better off as a #2 guy but we don't have anyone better to be the #1 right now. No reason why he can't get you an efficient 20-5-5 in that role.

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    Quote Raps76 wrote: View Post
    Ultimately DeMar is who we thought he was going to be. He was a no.9 draft pick on a reasonable contract who's putting up the type of numbers we expected of him. I think people get it twisted sometimes like he was a top 3 and expected to save the franchise. Yes he has a lot of deficiencies to go along with his assets (no need to discuss as we all know what they are) but he's relatively young and still maturing with upside.

    DeMar is a great fit for this team and the direction of this team. To trade him now (with Ross still not there yet) would be a massive gamble unless you get offered an absolute haul! Otherwise you can't justify trading away a top SG in the league with youth and upside for something that may work next yr but isn't guaranteed. A good time might be after next yr but it would depend on Ross's development and what the returns are.

    I think people need to relax sometimes and stop being such whiny nitpickers. Yes DD is gonna blow it sometimes, yes DC is gonna screw up some play calls but we need to recognize what we have going on here. Hell people don't even realize that if it wasn't for our coach's defensive minded prowess or the defensive fundamentals he instills and preaches we might not even be in the playoffs! He annoys the crap out of me too at times but you can't argue with the way he's kept this locker room united and believing.

    We have one of the grittiest most exciting PG's in the league (and yes he's our best player, it's not even up for debate) and a young hungry team brimming with talent. We also have an uber savvy GM with great cap space over the next couple of years. So in regards to trading DeRozan the grass always looks greener but careful what you wish for people.. Seriously I think some of you really need to reign it in and enjoy the moment.






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    This.

    DeMar is not a superstar player and is not paid like one, in fact he's even underpaid for an all-star. People need to stop expecting him to have zero deficiencies in his game, because as far as I'm concerned the only player who really doesn't have holes in his game is LeBron.

    Everyone who doesn't like his game is screaming "Sell high and trade him!" Well the player you get back is going to have flaws too, and trading DeRozan might actually expose flaws in some of our players or our team as a whole that we weren't fully aware of.

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  4. #123
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Well you're being a huge hypocrite then, because that's exactly what you did to me in this post.



    I have never said that DeRozan isos are better than him playing team-ball, so this is just made up. If you were to look at the "Everything DeMar DeRozan" thread you would see that I said game 5 was his best game of the series. Sharing the ball effectively and playing within the team are more conducive to winning than DD doing it on his own, I have never disagreed with that. I think where the problem lies is in the extent to which DD can actually play within the offence and not have to force anything. He was able to do so in game 5 because Lowry (and even Jonas) was torching Brooklyn, which meant DD didn't have to do as much scoring-wise or forcing shots. Let's not forget that Lowry hasn't really shot that well in this series prior to game 5, so DeRozan hasn't just been shooting a lot because he feels like it.

    I think DeRozan generally does play well within the offence as long as everyone is contributing on that end. Unfortunately, if there's a slip-up or lessened contribution from another key player, he has to force his offence more. And since DeRozan isn't LeBron or Durant, you generally don't want him having to do that. That's why I think DeMar would be better off as a #2 guy but we don't have anyone better to be the #1 right now. No reason why he can't get you an efficient 20-5-5 in that role.
    Others were involved because DD gave up the ball and dido not run ISO after ISO..... That is the point. Lowry has also been guilty of 1 on 5.

    Game 5 on offense was the perfect DD game after 1st Q

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Others were involved because DD gave up the ball and dido not run ISO after ISO..... That is the point. Lowry has also been guilty of 1 on 5.

    Game 5 on offense was the perfect DD game after 1st Q
    Ok that's fine.

    My point was you argued against an opinion that I don't actually have, which is what you JUST grilled me for in the post before.

    Check your shit man.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Ok that's fine.

    My point was you argued against an opinion that I don't actually have, which is what you JUST grilled me for in the post before.

    Check your shit man.
    Shit checked.

    It is stinky.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    This.

    DeMar is not a superstar player and is not paid like one, in fact he's even underpaid for an all-star. People need to stop expecting him to have zero deficiencies in his game, because as far as I'm concerned the only player who really doesn't have holes in his game is LeBron.

    Everyone who doesn't like his game is screaming "Sell high and trade him!" Well the player you get back is going to have flaws too, and trading DeRozan might actually expose flaws in some of our players or our team as a whole that we weren't fully aware of.
    I think we should all agree to stop using 'All-Star' as if it's some kind of objective measurement for talent. It isn't.

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  9. #127
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Well you're being a huge hypocrite then, because that's exactly what you did to me in this post.



    I have never said that DeRozan isos are better than him playing team-ball, so this is just made up. If you were to look at the "Everything DeMar DeRozan" thread you would see that I said game 5 was his best game of the series. Sharing the ball effectively and playing within the team are more conducive to winning than DD doing it on his own, I have never disagreed with that. I think where the problem lies is in the extent to which DD can actually play within the offence and not have to force anything. He was able to do so in game 5 because Lowry (and even Jonas) was torching Brooklyn, which meant DD didn't have to do as much scoring-wise or forcing shots. Let's not forget that Lowry hasn't really shot that well in this series prior to game 5, so DeRozan hasn't just been shooting a lot because he feels like it.

    I think DeRozan generally does play well within the offence as long as everyone is contributing on that end. Unfortunately, if there's a slip-up or lessened contribution from another key player, he has to force his offence more. And since DeRozan isn't LeBron or Durant, you generally don't want him having to do that. That's why I think DeMar would be better off as a #2 guy but we don't have anyone better to be the #1 right now. No reason why he can't get you an efficient 20-5-5 in that role.
    1st bold
    - I think this is one point that folks on both sides of the ongoing DeRozan debate agree on

    2nd bold
    - I think this is where the argument stems from.

    - When DeRozan has 'bad' games and reverts to the old 'inefficient one-dimensional' DeRozan, the "haters" get frustrated at his approach (and/or DC's play-calling), and complain about his inability to consistently be 'good DeRozan'. The "haters" view rationale/justification/excuses like this bold to be "fanboy" rhetoric, from people who appear to have blinders on to anything negative done by DeRozan. The "haters" get frustrated when every complaint or critique is met with aggressive defense of all things DeRozan, which seems to be based more on blind faith than actual visual and/or statistical evidence.

    - On the contrary, "fanboys" get sick of hearing all the nitpicking from "haters", who seem to jump at every opportunity to point out a weakness/flaw/bad game from DeRozan. With DeRozan being one of the focal points of the team, the constant ongoing nitpicking seems deliberately targeted and often unwarranted.


    If we all remembered that we can agree on the 1st bold, then consider the perspective of the 'other side' before jumping in guns blazing to send a reply, perhaps the DeRozan discussion would stay a bit more respectful and civilized.

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    DeRozan's Weaknesses:

    - Shooting efficiency/3PT Shooting: These go hand in hand, because if he was a capable three point shooter (35%+) his efficiency would be quite a bit above average, even with all the mid-range shots. Right now it actually makes more sense mathematically for DeMar to take a long 2 than for him to take a 3 above the break, which is strange but true. Right now he shoots at about average efficiency on very high volume.

    - Team Defense: One on one he's solid, but can miss rotations or do a poor job of closing out against shooters (usually closes out too far). He's not incredibly laterally quick so has trouble guarding faster guards.

    - Intermittent Tunnel Vision: Can sometimes freeze out teammates if he thinks he has a good look or needs to score. Rarely does this if someone else on the team is having a good game though or if he himself is shooting terribly.

    - Ball-Handling: He's actually excellent in terms of ball security. Just lacks yo-yo moves that would allow him to split double teams and break down entire defences.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I think we should all agree to stop using 'All-Star' as if it's some kind of objective measurement for talent. It isn't.
    Maybe not for 'talent', per se, but it certainly points to a production level reserved for an elite few.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I think we should all agree to stop using 'All-Star' as if it's some kind of objective measurement for talent. It isn't.
    It's obviously not objective.

    But generally every player on the all-star team is among the top 30 players in the league and one of if not the best players on their respective teams. Obviously, some guys get left off that are actually better than the guys on the team *cough* Lowry *cough*, but generally to make the all-star team is a big feat and puts you in a special class of players.

    Another thing we could look at to demonstrate that DeMar is underpaid is this:

    Star Players on playoff teams that make less money than DD (non rookie-contracts):
    - Lowry (TOR) --- About to be making more once this season is over
    - Manu (SAS) --- 36 years old
    - Millsap (ATL)
    - Monta (DAL)

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    DeRozan's Weaknesses:

    - Shooting efficiency/3PT Shooting: These go hand in hand, because if he was a capable three point shooter (35%+) his efficiency would be quite a bit above average, even with all the mid-range shots. Right now it actually makes more sense mathematically for DeMar to take a long 2 than for him to take a 3 above the break, which is strange but true. Right now he shoots at about average efficiency on very high volume.

    - Team Defense: One on one he's solid, but can miss rotations or do a poor job of closing out against shooters (usually closes out too far). He's not incredibly laterally quick so has trouble guarding faster guards.

    - Intermittent Tunnel Vision: Can sometimes freeze out teammates if he thinks he has a good look or needs to score. Rarely does this if someone else on the team is having a good game though or if he himself is shooting terribly.

    - Ball-Handling: He's actually excellent in terms of ball security. Just lacks yo-yo moves that would allow him to split double teams and break down entire defences.
    Now with that said. Find me a player that can do everything DeRozan does minus these weaknesses that isn't a superstar.

    I'll wait.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    Maybe not for 'talent', per se, but it certainly points to a production level reserved for an elite few.
    I agree. You can't take anything away from a guy who makes an all-star team. Even if it is questionable selection there is still merit to be there.


    All-NBA 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams are where there is no question of who the 'All-Stars' are.
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    I agree. You can't take anything away from a guy who makes an all-star team. Even if it is questionable selection there is still merit to be there.


    All-NBA 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams are where there is no question of who the 'All-Stars' are.
    Agreed, and the All-NBA roster is where names like Dragic and Lowry should/will appear. Its one thing to put up big time numbers on a losing team (e.g., Andrea Bargnani 2 years ago, or Arron Afflalo this past season. Heck, even Kyrie should fall under this)

    It is completely different to put up big numbers on a winning team. Its no easy feat. Last year, Paul George made his first all star team whilst averaging 17 ppg on 41% shooting. Derozan made it averaging 22 ppg on 43%, and Derozan only shot 30% from 3. However, both did so by helping their teams earn a top-4 seed in the East.


    Derozan earned his all star selection. However, when it comes to All-NBA, Kyle Lowry belongs there. He should have been an all star as well, but he most definitely deserves to be on the roster for the top 15 players of the season.
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  18. #134
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    A lot of the ISO plays are because of DD but most are because of Casey.When 4 players are on the baseline it's ISO when Salmon and Hayes are on the Court its ISO.

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    I agree. You can't take anything away from a guy who makes an all-star team. Even if it is questionable selection there is still merit to be there.


    All-NBA 1st, 2nd, 3rd teams are where there is no question of who the 'All-Stars' are.
    Even if people think one of the three or so snubs that don't make the team are better than you, that still puts you top 15 in your conference
    @Boymusic66

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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    Even if people think one of the three or so snubs that don't make the team are better than you, that still puts you top 15 in your conference
    That's why I said an all-star appearance basically shows you're a top 30 player. Maybe top 40 at worst if you're in the East. Either way you're in the upper echelon of players in the league.

    DeRozan is the 60th highest paid player in the league (http://espn.go.com/nba/salaries/_/page/2), but top 30 or so in terms of performance while also being younger than the majority of the other guys in the top 30.

    Underpaid. Simple as that. Getting more bang for your buck.

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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    I think we should all agree to stop using 'All-Star' as if it's some kind of objective measurement for talent. It isn't.
    Actually, in the context of "selling high" on Demar, the fact that he is already an All-Star is an excellent measurement. Why? Because it is voted on by the other NBA coaches. So, if I'm Ujiri it tells me that potential "buyers" of Demar have a high opinion of him, regardless of the flaws that we might see on a day to day basis. Perception matters A LOT, in this case and the accomplishment is quite relevant.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Actually, in the context of "selling high" on Demar, the fact that he is already an All-Star is an excellent measurement. Why? Because it is voted on by the other NBA coaches. So, if I'm Ujiri it tells me that potential "buyers" of Demar have a high opinion of him, regardless of the flaws that we might see on a day to day basis. Perception matters A LOT, in this case and the accomplishment is quite relevant.
    I would be weary putting so much confidence into the all-star voting process, there is obviously some politics involved, joe johnson made it.

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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I would be weary putting so much confidence into the all-star voting process, there is obviously some politics involved, joe johnson made it.
    Golden isn't talking about putting "confidence" into the process. He's saying that the fact that someone is voted in means their held in high regard around the league (particularly by the coaches if you're a reserve), which means the guy actually has very high league-wide value.

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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Actually, in the context of "selling high" on Demar, the fact that he is already an All-Star is an excellent measurement. Why? Because it is voted on by the other NBA coaches. So, if I'm Ujiri it tells me that potential "buyers" of Demar have a high opinion of him, regardless of the flaws that we might see on a day to day basis. Perception matters A LOT, in this case and the accomplishment is quite relevant.
    I agree with this; however, the statement I was commenting on was not referring to this context.

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