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Thread: Season is over so the question is here, was it worth it?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Default Season is over so the question is here, was it worth it?

    I was a huge proponent of the tank until it was obvious tanking wasn't going to work considering how deep the top 5 to top 10 of this draft is. Do you guys think losing out on arguably the best draft since 2003 was worth not tanking and going 1 and done in the playoffs?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Raptorsnz's Avatar
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    Yes. We have no idea how we would've done tanking, we're awful at it anyway since we seem to end up going on a hot streak in April every time.

    This team gave me countless happy moments this year, I wouldn't trade that for any player in the draft.

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
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    Absolutely. The organization's culture and perception around the league is highly improved. Potential FA's watching a team play so damn hard respect that team and want to be there. I'd rather be the Raptors organization instead of most of the tankers. Plus, I'm not sure how low we could have gotten. If we were to get anything close to fair value for KL, DD, Amir, I still don't see how we could suck enough to reach the bottom 5. And I am a firm opponent of just giving away assets in the hopes of getting a good pick.

    We're now in a good position. A point guard who might make All-NBA, a SG whose an all-star, a SF who showed a lot of growth this season, 2 PF's who could start on half the teams in the league and are both elite 6th men, a C who really improved this year, a backup PG who just put up 11 and 6 per game in the playoffs.

    Let's assume we'd get the 7th pick, because even tanking I don't see us worse than Bucks-Philly-Magic-Jazz-Celtics-Lakers. Referencing Axel's excellent Draft production post, the average numbers of that pick is somewhere in the neighborhood of 11-5-5. The Raptors pick averages 7-3-3. Had we traded our guys, they would never have seen their value increase.

    Instead of an 11-5 guy, we'll likely get a 7-3 guy. However, we also now have a top ten PG and a top five SG, instead of a journeyman PG and a top ten SG. I'm happy with that tradeoff, even before you factor how much more entertaining this season was compared to how crappy tanking would be.
    @Boymusic66

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    This will be a great question in preseason.

    Need to see what changes are made to roster.

    Guys have raised their trade value.

    Maybe benefits of losing season can be obtained without the losing?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  5. #5
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Can't answer the question without knowing what happens to Lowry.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Like Matt said, it's a tough question to ask at this stage.

    I arrived to the game about 2 hours early and sat in my seats trying to soak up the atmosphere. I had a feeling it would be my last game of the season but I still had hope. I contemplated the last 7-8 seasons, my early hopes for tanking for this season, and what it might feel like if we could win this game. I have to be honest my eyes welled up a bit at the thought of making it into the second round.

    Well, it wasn't meant to be. One can argue officiating, inexperience, Casey's in-bounds play, etc. But bottom line is we're out and back to the drawing board. There are a lot of pluses that have come out of this season -- DeRozan's arrival, and Lowry's maturity come to mind -- gives us a good reason for us to feel positive about the future of this franchise.

    On the other hand a lot of the points that were made in the tanking thread still apply -- we are relatively capped out once you factor re-signing Kyle Lowry. The only way to improve the team will be through developing current players and striking gold with our draft pick; a big splash into the free agency pool is still one full year away.

    Was it worth it? Let's ignore the probabilities of drafting a star/superstar/dud in the draft and think of it from a talent pool perspective. I think if we had tanked we would have more talent. But then DeRozan takes longer to understand what it takes to win, and Lowry possibly looks to greener pastures in the offseason. So if you look at it in that perspective -- you're getting less talent but a better team. You cannot argue that it wasn't worth it.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Can't answer the question without knowing what happens to Lowry.
    My answer is under the 100% sureness I have that Lowry is coming back. I'm 100% positive this will happen and you can feel free to quote me on it.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Technically the season ends on June 30th. I will say I've been much happier this season than I have in a long time being a Raptor fan.. but I also know how I felt at the end of 2008 and what happened the next 5 years.

    Despite winning the division and having such great fans, I still don't think they are a free agents dream city to play in. So free agency will probably be as difficult to lure talent as it has always been. That would leave trades and the draft to get better talent. With the draft spot being at #20 it will be hard to get a stud.. no guarantee that it won't but the odds will be against the Raptors.

    However the one thing this season has given us is a lot of great trade assets. And hopefully MU can use some of those pieces and get better talent including potentially a better draft spot.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    If Lowry leaves for nothing and/or no significant moves are made to retool (at least) this roster, I fear this season resulted in exactly what MU promised would absolutely not happen...



    MU definitely has lots of options available to him:
    - existing trade assets increased their value
    - lots of picks to use/trade, including 4 1st round picks over the next 3 years
    - lots of potential cap space over the next few offseasons (2015 & 2016)
    - Toronto improved its image as a free agent destination

    Unfortunately, I view this core's ceiling as 2nd round fodder, at best. In the short-term, there is little opportunity to improve, beyond organic growth and/or trades. I want to trust MU and hope he stays faithful to his long-term strategy, in order to build this team into a true contender.

    I reserve my final judgment of this season until the start of next season.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    Can't answer the question without knowing what happens to Lowry.
    I agree. If he re-signs, then I am a yes. Having him and Demar rep Toronto will at least get us out of the perennial bottomfeeder category. But I do think our ceiling is limited unless we bring in a true number one option.

    If he leaves, it was a pretty spectacular waste of a season. Devalued our draft pick, gave Val eight shots a game, and likely simply delayed a proper rebuild by a year.

    Pretty huge gamble by MU, but the signs do look like Kyle will stick around.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star 007's Avatar
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    We need to trade Fish, his buyout might raise his value.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

  15. #12
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    100% worth it.

    On paper, its very blunt - Low draft pick up in huge draft, first round exit.

    Assuming the tank were in full effect, I'd expect that Lowry were to be traded. With that in mind, we'll focus on that scenario:

    Ross and JV's growth - Does it grow as much if Lowry were traded? Maybe if we traded for a PG that commanded the same defensive focus as Lowry had (Felton? HA). The fact that these two guys are our 3-4 option makes it a lot easier for them to develop and lets the coach have them on a longer leash.

    DD's growth - Sure he would have likely been the man still dropping 20+ points a night, but who cares about that guy on a losing team. His all star appearance is a huge boost to his confidence.

    Vasquez - plays as a huge role for this team as a spark off the bench. With Lowry gone, Gravy would've taken on the starter role and maybe would've flourished with that opportunity like his time in NWO. If that were the case, come this time we'd still be looking for a starter or back up PG. If Lowry were to resign, we'd have a solid PG set going forward.

    Intangibles -

    MU's Fk Brooklyn - Who is Toronto and why did anybody ever care about us before something like this? You turn heads, send a message and create a buzz for $25k? shieeeeeet marketing genius at work.

    Playoff experience - TRoss and JV's growing pains and DD for game 1. Let's get this out of the way sooner rather than later. KD won't want to play with a bunch of jittery guys come playoff time a few years from now *ahem*

    Playoff atmosphere - another intangible you can't ignore. When I watched Game 3 after seeing our home games, I was literally scared for our team. How would they deal with the pressure of a rowdy crowd. They lost, but no thanks to the boring crowd. At least to a certain degree, players gotta see this and be wowed by our fanbase.

    It's not going to put Toronto at the top of the free agent destination list, but the seed has been planted. You can't attract free agents by bottoming out.
    We're moving on up and please resign Lowry!
    Entourage: Harvey - "E (BC) was right, there's genius in this (Bargnani)"
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  16. #13
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    Definitely worth it. MU was tasked to create a legit championship contender. And what we did this season pretty much gives him all the data he needs. We're still a couple pieces away from reaching that level. Looking at the series against Nets, we still need that 1 go to guy as well as another bench big. I know the whole rudy gay thing didn't work out, but that doesn't mean the whole go to guy thing doesn't work. The issue for MU is to figure out how he can acquire them without breaking our core.

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  18. #14
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    First of all I'd like to say that I don't post much (damn you RBC for blocking my posting abilities), this was my first full season being a part of the boards. Loved it. You guys make it so much more fun to be a fan. Can't wait until next year!

    Now to address the topic: I was a pro tanker, but I forgot what it feels like to cheer for a winning team and how awesome the playoffs feel. I enjoyed it thoroughly.

    Without knowing about Lowry it's tough to tell whether it was truly worth it. If we lose him or keeping him destroyed our cap room for 2016 then, not so much. If we keep him at a reasonable rate, show internal growth with DD, JV and Ross, we'll be even better.

    I have more ideas for the roster, but that's for another thread.

  19. #15
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I don't want to derail this thread, but I had some thoughts after listening to the Fan 590 after the game. The host was speaking from his own perspective and basically saying something along the lines of "I'm from Lindsay but from my perspective I think Toronto is a great city, and I think after these playoffs, free agents will love to go there."

    I don't think so. We are biased because we love this city. We like to argue that Toronto has a massive market, but players when given a choice, are not coming here if they have other options. A lot of these American kids grow up dreaming about playing for certain teams, and outside of Kevin Durant, none of them were picturing themselves in a Raptors jersey. Even if guys like Charles Barkley or Magic Johnson applauds our fan base and how great the city is, and we put together a solid season and a respectable playoff run, people are not going to suddenly get an offer from the Knicks, Lakers, Celtics and Raptors and say oh I'd rather play for the Raptors. We can't compete with those teams in the same way winning teams like San Antonio or OKC have not been able to attract names either, and those are perennial contenders.

    What we can do, hopefully, is compete with lesser markets. Now, if a player has a choice between Charlotte and Toronto, we have a chance. Teams like Indiana, Utah, Phoenix, Portland, Milwaukee, Atlanta, Orlando, Golden State etc.. those are teams that we can potentially beat now, but there are other circumstances like a chance to play with established good teams vs an up-and-coming team like ours. That factor depends on what type of player is in question.

    The real test, as I mentioned above, is if the Raptors plan to position themselves to chase Kevin Durant. Here is a guy who has actually stated that he grew up liking the Raptors. If a guy like that actually follows through on his statements, that would change a lot of things. Until that happens, I wouldn't hold my breath that we can attract a big name to come here just because of our own perceived awesomeness of this team/city.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Yes. Even if we lose Lowry.

    The trade value of our four starters is much, much higher than it was at the beginning of the season. This is partially due to some great playoff performances by Amir, Jonas and DeRozan, and posting a winning record.

    There is absolutely no way that DeRozan would have made the All-Star team without the team being a few games over .500. Now his stock is at an all-time high. Early in the season if you proposed a Kevin Love for DeRozan + Pick trade, Minnesota would have laughed in your face, now, it's an offer they're going to at least mull over.

    We also still have cap space, as well as 1 First Rounder + 2 Second Rounders. And by not trading Lowry mid-season, we are in the best position to resign him.

    Also remember — Tanking guaranteed NOTHING this year. There were at least 8 or 9 teams aggressively vying for the worst record by the All-Star Break. There was a strong possibility that if we did trade Lowry, we would have still not have been bad enough to get a Top 5 pick. We would have likely have had to trade DeRozan and fire Casey as well for a chance at a high pick.

    When you factor in how aggressively other teams were tanking, and how little other teams were offering for Lowry, the prospect of tanking this year would have been a huge gamble at a steep price.

    We came out ahead. Even if Masai wanted to reset the entire roster, he's in a much better bargaining position now than he was if we had tanked.

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  22. #17
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    I was a huge proponent of the tank until it was obvious tanking wasn't going to work considering how deep the top 5 to top 10 of this draft is. Do you guys think losing out on arguably the best draft since 2003 was worth not tanking and going 1 and done in the playoffs?
    How exactly did we lose out on the draft? We still have a 1st round pick (pick 20). We lost out on getting a top 10 pick, but I'm fine sliding back 10 picks in the draft in exchange for the playoff run and improved value of our players and improved perception of our team and fans.

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    Everybody on the Roister has "playoff experience" now and we saw how horrible a coach Casey is. This run cleared up a lot of questions about the roster.

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  25. #19
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    How exactly did we lose out on the draft? We still have a 1st round pick (pick 20). We lost out on getting a top 10 pick, but I'm fine sliding back 10 picks in the draft in exchange for the playoff run and improved value of our players and improved perception of our team and fans.
    And if MU is hell-bent on moving into the lottery, top-10, top-5, or targeting a specific player, I really think he has assets to work with. He has the #20 & #37 pick in 2014, an extra 2016 1st round pick, value contracts (Salmons & Hansbrough), and valuable players like DeRozan/Ross, Johnson/Patterson(S&T), Vasquez(S&T).

    If Lowry walks for nothing, then it would be easy to look back and wish the Raps had a much higher draft pick to work with as a starting point (would hurt even more if a team in the 10-14 range were to win the lottery, or even move into the top-3), but MU still has lots of options for approaching the draft.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Raptors should also have $3M in cash that they can use in one single trade. I don't believe MU used that in any of his deals he made this year.

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