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Thread: Everything Coach

  1. #121
    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I swear everyone has fucking amnesia over Casey's first 2 years here. He has been really bad the majority of his time as coach of Toronto.
    We have so much evidence that late game execution is a problem. So many blown inbound plays. Are we winning because of Casey, or because Lowry is a superhero? I think Lowry's spectacular play has masked many of Casey's weaknesses.

    I give credit to Casey for instilling a solid defensive focus but I still think he's a great assistant, not a great head coach. MU is so big on chemistry, though, that I strongly doubt he'll rock the boat after all this unexpected success.

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  3. #122
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    D'Antoni? Serious? I NEVER thought he was of that ilk. You know what wins? Defense. You know what D'Antoni doesn't coach? Defense. Before you "guess" what I "think" I suggest you have a look at my comments. My +1000 plus thoughts are always well thought. Sometime flawed but never as dumb as thinking that a slightly above average coach who doesn't coach defense is better than a better than average coach who coaches defense.

    Give me a break.

    When I mention SVG and "5 others" most people on this site know who those handful are: Karl, Pop, JVG, Phil Jackson, and depending on who you ask Hollins (that whole not liking analytics makes me woozy on him though -- My 5th is usually Coach K). Do I have to list my guys just because you want to pretend to know what's in my mind?...jokes.
    Just because I was replying to your post didn't mean I had any idea what you thought of D'Antoni, or would even pretend to. I was just making a point that, around the league, he was thought of as a brilliant coach.

  4. #123
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    The bold could be said about every single coaching hire and fire ever. The GM is paid millions to do the research and find the right coach. The GM either knows what the fuck they're doing or they don't. All this nonsense of SVG or bust is just fucking nonsense. Two examples of superior coaches hired just last season.
    Budenholzer in Atlanta is clearly a superior coach to Casey and was just hired last year, no head coaching experience prior. Jeff Hornacek is clearly a better coach than Casey, just hired last year, no head coaching experience. These guys are out there.

    If a GM is worth anything (I think Masai is one of the best), he will be able to find a coach and won't poop his pants wondering "what if" it doesn't work out. Rehiring Casey because it's safe is exactly how franchises get stuck in the middle, and Masai won't get us stuck there.

    The argument to keep Casey is like an argument to have kept Calderon over Lowry. Calderon had been here (stability), he was really good at one aspect of the game and very bad at another (good offense, bad defense), and he was safe (you know what you get). Lowry was risky (fought with head coaches, inconsistent, injuries, and never quite showed his potential), but the risk is worth it if it means you could win it all (finally, a true championship caliber PG in Lowry).

    I swear everyone has fucking amnesia over Casey's first 2 years here. He has been really bad the majority of his time as coach of Toronto.
    This is a completely different situation than with Lowry-Calderon, though you're right there's a similar idea. With Lowry-Calderon, the team was terrible, there was nothing to lose with taking risks like that.

    That's just not true now. The Raptors are already a good team, and with further development of Ross and Valanciunas, I really believe this team as currently playing, with a few minor tweaks, could be really, really good. Maybe even championship contenders. You have something now you can screw up by putting the wrong guy in as coach. You know Casey is 100% serviceable as coach of this team. You don't know that about anyone else.

    At this point, not knowing what you could eventually have with your young core, why take the risk?

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  6. #124
    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Just back up a brinks truck to Ollie's house. Ollie says no, drive the brinks truck to SVG's place.

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  8. #125
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote Other Scott wrote: View Post
    This is a completely different situation than with Lowry-Calderon, though you're right there's a similar idea. With Lowry-Calderon, the team was terrible, there was nothing to lose with taking risks like that.

    That's just not true now. The Raptors are already a good team, and with further development of Ross and Valanciunas, I really believe this team as currently playing, with a few minor tweaks, could be really, really good. Maybe even championship contenders. You have something now you can screw up by putting the wrong guy in as coach. You know Casey is 100% serviceable as coach of this team. You don't know that about anyone else.

    At this point, not knowing what you could eventually have with your young core, why take the risk?
    I don't think you're being realistic with how close this team is. We're not a tweak or two away from a championship. We are a solid playoff team in the East, but not really contenders for the conference title even.

    I also know Casey is 100% not a championship caliber head coach. Serviceable is a great word for him, and if you want Milwaukee Bucks levels of success, then serviceable is the way to go.

    Once again, it is the GM's job to know which coach's out there would be better for the Raptors than Casey. He is literally paid millions every year to make those kind of decisions. Masai is not sitting at his desk going "Oh fuck, Casey is serviceable, the new guy might not be, I can't switch coaches". Don't project your utter lack of confidence onto Masai. Before the season he said he was perfectly fine with being really bad because he knows where he wants to take this team. He's not going to define his career by playing it safe with Casey and guaranteeing the Raptors stay stuck in the middle.

  9. #126
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote KHD wrote: View Post
    Are you comfortable bringing in yet another inexperienced coach? I mean, the guy's coached what, 2 seasons of college?

    Not saying its a bad idea, but I really would like to hear what the reasons are for him getting so much NBA attention, as I don't follow the college game too closely.
    Not all inexperienced coaches are created equal.

    In his 2 years of coaching he won a National Championship without elite talent.
    Ollie was in the league for 13 years as a player.
    He was widely respected by his peers - KD is a fan.


    By this logic, Jeff Hornacek would never have been hired.


    I know what you are saying but not all coaches are created equal - with or without experience. Plus I think having played in the league gives him a big advantage in the job.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  11. #127
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I don't think you're being realistic with how close this team is. We're not a tweak or two away from a championship. We are a solid playoff team in the East, but not really contenders for the conference title even.

    I also know Casey is 100% not a championship caliber head coach. Serviceable is a great word for him, and if you want Milwaukee Bucks levels of success, then serviceable is the way to go.

    Once again, it is the GM's job to know which coach's out there would be better for the Raptors than Casey. He is literally paid millions every year to make those kind of decisions. Masai is not sitting at his desk going "Oh fuck, Casey is serviceable, the new guy might not be, I can't switch coaches". Don't project your utter lack of confidence onto Masai. Before the season he said he was perfectly fine with being really bad because he knows where he wants to take this team. He's not going to define his career by playing it safe with Casey and guaranteeing the Raptors stay stuck in the middle.
    I think Casey is better than Milwaukee-bad. But he's not as good as a coach like Jeff Van Gundy — who never won a championship but got some really bad teams to over achieve.

    I do agree that Casey's not a championship-calibre coach, and we're not a championship team. We might need to upgrade two starters given how poor our team handles double teams. Our starting Small Forward, PF and even Shooting Guard positions might be up for grabs. We need a fourth big that isn't vertically challenged and a back-up swing man desperately.

    Phil Jackson would not be able to lead this team to a better record, thats for sure. Popovich would probably get more wins, but shit, he's Popovich.

  12. #128
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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    I think Casey is better than Milwaukee-bad. But he's not as good as a coach like Jeff Van Gundy — who never won a championship but got some really bad teams to over achieve.

    I do agree that Casey's not a championship-calibre coach, and we're not a championship team. We might need to upgrade two starters given how poor our team handles double teams. Our starting Small Forward, PF and even Shooting Guard positions might be up for grabs. We need a fourth big that isn't vertically challenged and a back-up swing man desperately.

    Phil Jackson would not be able to lead this team to a better record, thats for sure. Popovich would probably get more wins, but shit, he's Popovich.
    I'm totally with you on the makeup of this team needing an upgrade at nearly every position. But doesn't that kill the whole continuity argument for keeping Casey? I think it does. This team will be at least 50% different players before we're ready to contend, so there won't be any continuity anyways.

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  14. #129
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I'm totally with you on the makeup of this team needing an upgrade at nearly every position. But doesn't that kill the whole continuity argument for keeping Casey? I think it does. This team will be at least 50% different players before we're ready to contend, so there won't be any continuity anyways.
    But aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Until you can bring in game-changing talent, is there really a point in over spending on a coach?

    We have to give Casey some credit here. I know there are fans that hate his rotations, but I like how he has stubbornly forced Ross and JV to earn minutes and punished them for being boneheads. I like how he seems to have Kyle and DeRozan's ear and have bought into his no-drama/no-self-pity personality. The team still has a lot of pride and plays hard for each other despite some really, really rough times.

    Hmmm, it's a tough call for me. I see you point, obviously. I don't think Casey is the guy you want managing egos or coaching elite talent. But he has helped shaped the identity of my favorite Raptors team ... ever?

  15. #130
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Simple response...Tex Winter, triangle offence, Phil Jackson.
    You seriously want this team to run the triangle? Do you really not think that would be a disaster? I'm kinda wondering if you actually know how that offense works...

  16. #131
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    You seriously want this team to run the triangle? Do you really not think that would be a disaster? I'm kinda wondering if you actually know how that offense works...
    I'm kinda wondering if you read the exchange? There was a statement along the lines that it's better to hire an offensive head coach and defensive specialists make better assistants. I was just saying that offensive assistants can be just as valuable by pointing out this example.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Sat May 3rd, 2014 at 01:45 PM.

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  18. #132
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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    But aren't you putting the cart before the horse? Until you can bring in game-changing talent, is there really a point in over spending on a coach?

    We have to give Casey some credit here. I know there are fans that hate his rotations, but I like how he has stubbornly forced Ross and JV to earn minutes and punished them for being boneheads. I like how he seems to have Kyle and DeRozan's ear and have bought into his no-drama/no-self-pity personality. The team still has a lot of pride and plays hard for each other despite some really, really rough times.

    Hmmm, it's a tough call for me. I see you point, obviously. I don't think Casey is the guy you want managing egos or coaching elite talent. But he has helped shaped the identity of my favorite Raptors team ... ever?
    Who ever said we would over spend? If we bring Casey back it will be at a raise, and probably more salary than we would pay any new coaching hire. I don't think either Van Gundy is realistic and fully expect both to just keep broadcasting. There are no expensive coaches out there we would target. Someone like Ollie is not going to cost more than Casey. At worse we're talking $1M a year difference. I'd rather have our coach of the future in place building the team together with Ujiri the way they want it. Exactly like what's going on in Atlanta right now.

  19. #133
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I'm kinda wondering if you read the exchange? There was a statement along the lines that it's better to hire an offensive head coach and defensive specialists make better assistants. I was just saying that offensive assistants can be just as valuable by pointing out this example.
    Yeah mistook it for a solution you were proposing rather than example, my mistake.

  20. #134
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Yeah mistook it for a solution you were proposing rather than example, my mistake.
    No worries. I'm definitely not delusional enough to think the triangle would work here. Think some of the things we've done this year offensively have been good, but there still needs to be more work done...and well, be it through growth/acquisitions, more talent added on that end

  21. #135
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    No worries. I'm definitely not delusional enough to think the triangle would work here. Think some of the things we've done this year offensively have been good, but there still needs to be more work done...and well, be it through growth/acquisitions, more talent added on that end
    Yeah I think the number one thing is DD continuing to improve his handle and passing. Watching him get backed up to half court with every hedge and loose double is getting tiring, but the I think about how far he's come from last season and I have hope. Another year with this same core and building more counters and options into the sets will hopefully make a big difference.

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  23. #136
    Raptors Republic Rookie GoldenBaller's Avatar
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    Can't go wrong with any one of the van gundy's. I've wanted Stan ever since he was fired from Orlando.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Lark Benson wrote: View Post
    Yeah I think the number one thing is DD continuing to improve his handle and passing. Watching him get backed up to half court with every hedge and loose double is getting tiring, but the I think about how far he's come from last season and I have hope. Another year with this same core and building more counters and options into the sets will hopefully make a big difference.
    That is a great point.

    I'm done trying to put a limit on him - I honestly don't know and I honestly think he is the exception to many, many norms.

    Thinking how far he has come last year certainly puts things in perspective. If only he didn't take 43% of his shots as long 2s and if only he played some D though!
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  25. #138
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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    So you think playing a one-armed man over a two-armed man would make him a better coach?
    Yes.

  26. #139
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    Mark Jackson's time is over in GS. How about him ?

  27. #140
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    Quote GoldenBaller wrote: View Post
    Can't go wrong with any one of the van gundy's. I've wanted Stan ever since he was fired from Orlando.
    In total agreement SVG is an experienced tactician who stands up to superstars when needed. DC is afraid to stand up and call out and criticize certain players. Different rules and standards for different players. DC is really not that smart.

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