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Thread: Everything Coach

  1. #421
    Raptors Republic Starter imaginelino's Avatar
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    Quote Pong wrote: View Post
    People seem to think that just by hiring a new coach, the team will play even better. Coaching isn't just x's and o's. DC's contract getting extended is basically MU saying he likes what he saw and wants to build on it this coming season. Think about it, guys like derozan and amir has been through thick and thin with the raptors. They just finished the best season of their careers with a coach they trust, believe in, and want to play hard for. Think about how much impact that would have if they just let DC go.
    spot on argument

  2. #422
    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Well it's not like he got their talent to overachieve. They had one of the most talented rosters even in the stacked West. 2 of his assistants had to be removed from the picture, and he managed to alienate Jerry West, one of the greatest basketball minds ever.

    I fully think Jackson was the problem. There can't be that many issues and it's everyone else's fault.
    He lost to the Spurs, and then to a Clippers team with two top-ten players missing his star center. Not exactly a coaching failure.
    @Boymusic66

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  4. #423
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    What happened with Mark Jackson is exactly what I foresee happening with the Raptors. This was just our first playoff run. I expect to have more, and I expect that Casey's weaknesses will become more and more apparent at each attempt. That said, this team as it is, needs someone like Casey. A couple years from now we won't need a motivational guy anymore, we'll need someone who outcoaches the other team. Bring in that type now, we'll still lose because we don't have the talent level to win yet. After a few failures, I expect us to fire Casey even though he's had a stellar record for us at which point we'll find a serious veteran coach known for bringing teams deep into the playoffs.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  6. #424
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Jacksons dismissal had less to do with what happened on the court and more to do with his contentious relationship with the Warriors FO. Lionel Hollins v.2.

  7. #425
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Just watched all entire interview/announcement with Masai and Casey.

    Casey has his flaws, but he seems committed to improving.

    You can immediately see why a front office and players wants to work with him. He practices what he preaches. Forces people to accept having to earn things (versus allowing people to feel entitled to things).

    And he is remarkably level-headed and even-keeled. That's hugely important in management and can be hard to find. Considering the dude just saved his job and is guaranteed he is making millions of more dollars, you'd expect him to be more psyched!

  8. #426
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Uncle_Si wrote: View Post
    Look at the wild fluctuations in their play. Consistency isn't about playing time. It's about rewarding and punishing behaviour. It's about setting expectations and not moving the bar and holding guys accountable to those expectations. Of course you have to leave some wiggle room but people respond to accountability.
    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Why doesn't this apply to vets like Salmons and Hayes?
    Primer nailed it.

    Also, I think you have a chicken and egg scenario. Is the inconsistent playing time a result of poor play or is the poor play a result of inconsistent playing time? Personally I think it is a bit of both but the only thing that is controllable is the playing time. Young players need to play in game experience to truly learn.

    Regarding bold and accountability: accountability needs to be consistent among all players for it to truly be effective.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed May 7th, 2014 at 07:34 AM.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  9. #427
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    because if jonas or ross make some mistakes and develope bad habits, it fucks us up in the future

    if salmons or hayes make a mistake and develope bad habits, who the fuck cares
    Well then you get in to areas of accountability and favoritism which is certainly not going to help confidence or morale either.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  10. #428
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    What happened with Mark Jackson is exactly what I foresee happening with the Raptors. This was just our first playoff run. I expect to have more, and I expect that Casey's weaknesses will become more and more apparent at each attempt. That said, this team as it is, needs someone like Casey. A couple years from now we won't need a motivational guy anymore, we'll need someone who outcoaches the other team. Bring in that type now, we'll still lose because we don't have the talent level to win yet. After a few failures, I expect us to fire Casey even though he's had a stellar record for us at which point we'll find a serious veteran coach known for bringing teams deep into the playoffs.
    The point the Thunder have reached now.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  11. #429
    Raptors Republic Superstar isaacthompson's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    What happened with Mark Jackson is exactly what I foresee happening with the Raptors. This was just our first playoff run. I expect to have more, and I expect that Casey's weaknesses will become more and more apparent at each attempt. That said, this team as it is, needs someone like Casey. A couple years from now we won't need a motivational guy anymore, we'll need someone who outcoaches the other team. Bring in that type now, we'll still lose because we don't have the talent level to win yet. After a few failures, I expect us to fire Casey even though he's had a stellar record for us at which point we'll find a serious veteran coach known for bringing teams deep into the playoffs.
    Basically. I see this as an insurance move... with Casey at the helm for 1-2 more years, the team we witnessed this year should be the floor.
    Twitter - @thekid_it

  12. #430
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    The point the Thunder have reached now.
    I think it was actually two years ago.

  13. #431
    Raptors Republic All-Star JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Why doesn't this apply to vets like Salmons and Hayes?
    It has to be those things that we laymen don't notice - defensive rotations, running the offence correctly, etc.

    It has to be this because I don't want to be angry for the next two years (plus a team option for the third).

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  15. #432
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Primer nailed it.

    Also, I think you have a chicken and egg scenario. Is the inconsistent playing time a result of poor play or is the poor play a result of inconsistent playing time? Personally I think it is a bit of both but the only thing that is controllable is the playing time. Young players need to play in game experience to truly learn.

    Regarding bold and accountability: accountability needs to be consistent among all players for it to truly be effective.
    Well there was a whole conversation regarding this earlier in the year, as CalRapsFan mentioned.

    I think that accountability and playing time are both important to player development. Leaning to one side isn't necessarily stupid unless you're going to the extreme (ie: barely playing at all or 0 accountability (like Irving/Bargnani)).

    Re: letting vets play through mistakes, in Casey's mind, boils down to two things:
    1. We aren't trying to develop those vets. They're tools to help impose accountability on the young players.
    2. (and this one is just an idea) the mistakes the vets make are different kind of mistakes. They stem from lack of ability rather than lack of focus or motivation.

    Now, I'm not trying to say that what Casey does is perfect, but we're arguing over an average of ~5 minutes per game.

    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Well then you get in to areas of accountability and favoritism which is certainly not going to help confidence or morale either.
    They aren't earning their playing time by being better than the next guy on the bench, they're earning playing time by executing the game plan and elevating their play to what they're capable of. The ball is fully in their hands.

    Like I said earlier, I'm sure Ross and JV are walked through what will get them pulled. They aren't just randomly yanked. They probably know like, if I miss a defensive rotation, then I'm getting pulled. That's the whole point. They know that they have to properly prepare before every match and stay focused on what matters to the coaching staff while they're out there to earn their minutes.

    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Primer nailed it.

    Also, I think you have a chicken and egg scenario. Is the inconsistent playing time a result of poor play or is the poor play a result of inconsistent playing time? Personally I think it is a bit of both but the only thing that is controllable is the playing time. Young players need to play in game experience to truly learn.

    Regarding bold and accountability: accountability needs to be consistent among all players for it to truly be effective.
    So I guess I'll respond to all your points because I hate when people ignore a critical part of my argument.

    This does kind of boil down to a chicken and the egg scenario, and I'm not going to be the one to try and untangle it.

    But I will say, that as a principle, it probably isn't bad to pull a guy who comes out super flat. For whatever reason if Ross or JV come out looking like their head just isn't in it, or they're tired from last night, or trying to show off in front of some visitors, or whatever, they're sent the message that that isn't ok. They have to prepare for every single game the same way, take them all seriously, and execute their game plan night in, night out.

    They aren't given the chance to just 'warm up' through the first quarter or two and get going in the second half.

    If Ross was up ripping bong and playing 2k the night before, getting pulled early is sending the message that it's not ok to come out like that.
    Last edited by stooley; Wed May 7th, 2014 at 09:28 AM.

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  17. #433
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Well then you get in to areas of accountability and favoritism which is certainly not going to help confidence or morale either.
    How much longer is this bs meme going to drag on? Salmon's and Hayes' "mistakes" are having almost no athleticism and no longer having the ability to put the ball through the hoop. They play smart basketball for the most part, and make few true mistakes.

    Ross and JV do have the athleticism and scoring ability. Ross can get overmatched physically at times; that is not a mistake on his part, that is a matchup issue. But they can become total fuckup's, especially so at the defensive end. JV not boxing out or being late on rotations multiple times are the types of mistakes that few coaches on winning teams will tolerate.

  18. #434
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I'm curious as to how many minutes Ross and JV will get next season under Casey. DeMar in his third year (first under Casey) was averaging 35 mpg at 22 years of age.

    The team had Barbosa, Anderson, Butler, and Carter who were all veterans but weren't able to steal minutes from DD.

    So if Casey wants to continue to teach Ross and JV lessons I would find that hypocritical considering he didn't do the same with DD and DD made a lot of mistakes in his third year especially on the defensive end.

  19. #435
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    So if Casey wants to continue to teach Ross and JV lessons I would find that hypocritical considering he didn't do the same with DD and DD made a lot of mistakes in his third year especially on the defensive end.
    Might not have been a bad idea to hold DD a little more accountable

    (I'm just joking guys, just joking)

  20. #436
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    How much longer is this bs meme going to drag on? Salmon's and Hayes' "mistakes" are having almost no athleticism and no longer having the ability to put the ball through the hoop. They play smart basketball for the most part, and make few true mistakes.

    Ross and JV do have the athleticism and scoring ability. Ross can get overmatched physically at times; that is not a mistake on his part, that is a matchup issue. But they can become total fuckup's, especially so at the defensive end. JV not boxing out or being late on rotations multiple times are the types of mistakes that few coaches on winning teams will tolerate.
    Probably as long as Casey makes bs statements about how if it weren't that Ross and JV are the future, he'd likely not play them at all.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  21. #437
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I'm curious as to how many minutes Ross and JV will get next season under Casey. DeMar in his third year (first under Casey) was averaging 35 mpg at 22 years of age.

    The team had Barbosa, Anderson, Butler, and Carter who were all veterans but weren't able to steal minutes from DD.

    So if Casey wants to continue to teach Ross and JV lessons I would find that hypocritical considering he didn't do the same with DD and DD made a lot of mistakes in his third year especially on the defensive end.
    One key difference between minutes DD was given vs minutes Ross and JV have been given is who was calling the shots at the time. I think Masai takes a far less hands-on approach than BC did.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  23. #438
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    One key difference between minutes DD was given vs minutes Ross and JV have been given is who was calling the shots at the time. I think Masai takes a far less hands-on approach than BC did.
    I agree, although apparently somewhat hands on.

    I was actually a little surprised to hear the relationship that MU and DC had fostered this year. The way they talk about it, it sounds like a very healthy professional relationship. I'd always thought too much meddling from the GM was a bad thing...

  24. #439
    Raptors Republic Starter 3inthekeon's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    Probably as long as Casey makes bs statements about how if it weren't that Ross and JV are the future, he'd likely not play them at all.
    Did he say "not play them at all" or did you make that up also?

  25. #440
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote 3inthekeon wrote: View Post
    Did he say "not play them at all" or did you make that up also?
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