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Thread: Everything Coach

  1. #481
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    If you're going to go that route, then I could easily counter with the fact that his career record is 153-193. Even worse, before this it was 105-159. Yikes. Going by that empirical evidence alone, you would have said before this season that he was an awful head coach, and you could've easily expected Masai to let him go before the season started.

    But I won't counter with 105-159, because I don't believe that any of these numbers really matter. It's just too much of a players league.

    Frankly, I don't believe that there's any empirical evidence that exists that tells you if a coach is good or not. Maybe that's why they're getting hired and fired so often.
    I think we agree that coaches matter — I would hate to see how a team like this would perform without one. But sure. It's as hard to evaluate their performance as it is any middle manager.

    Maybe it's enough that they give a shit, work hard and the people that they manage work hard. The starters had career years this year. He somehow made Alan Anderson look good, when no one gave two shits about Alan Anderson. Even Bargs improved defensively under Casey, until he got injured and basically made himself irrelevant.

    The glass-half full view is he got the most out of his personnel, the glass-half empty view is that he stayed out of the players' way.

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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    I think we agree that coaches matter — I would hate to see how a team like this would perform without one. But sure. It's as hard to evaluate their performance as it is any middle manager.

    Maybe it's enough that they give a shit, work hard and the people that they manage work hard. The starters had career years this year. He somehow made Alan Anderson look good, when no one gave two shits about Alan Anderson. Even Bargs improved defensively under Casey, until he got injured and basically made himself irrelevant.

    The glass-half full view is he got the most out of his personnel, the glass-half empty view is that he stayed out of the players' way.
    Lol, Bargs was always irrelevant, unless you started talking about horrible draft choices.

    We coulda had Aldridge man....
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    Lol, Bargs was always irrelevant, unless you started talking about horrible draft choices.

    We coulda had Aldridge man....
    More irrelevant than normal I mean! LOL.

    When he came back from injury to play with Rudy … my god. It was like, what's this guy even doing here? At all?

  4. #484
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    So you think Casey has hit or is close to his ceiling? Okay. But I definitely don't think we have the personnel (yet) to for that to be an issue.

    Out of curiosity, do you feel George Karl is a gatekeeper? Or a victim of Jordan's prime? He had better talent in Seattle than the Raptors had this year, but couldn't take them over the top.
    For starters, I don't think Casey is even close to Karl in coaching talent. Karl has a career winning percentage of .599. That's really really fucking good and a lot better than Casey's best season as a head coach, let alone his career.

    Karl in Seattle went wins by season: 27, 55, 63, 57, 64, 57, 61.
    That's really fucking good.

    Then he went to Milwaukee and took them from a 28 win team in his first season to a 52 win team in his 3rd season.

    Then he brought Denver back to relevance.

    Casey isn't even close to in the same conversation as Karl and he never will be.

    To answer your question, No, Karl isn't a gatekeeper. His teams basically always made the playoffs and he took teams to the NBA and Conference Finals. Plus the 60+ win seasons put him on another level.

    I didn't want to fire Casey and hire Karl (I want a young up and coming coach) but I sure as shit wouldn't have been upset if that's what happened. Karl would be an improvement and anyone who says otherwise isn't thinking clearly.
    Last edited by Primer; Wed May 7th, 2014 at 11:12 PM.

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  6. #485
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    Casey took a team from 23 wins to 48 in three seasons and if current trending holds is on pace for a 55 win season.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Poor Casey. Either he loses the game or the team wins in spite of him. He never does anything to help us win.
    For The Win

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  10. #487
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post

    Casey isn't even close to in the same conversation as Karl and he never will be.
    I just think this attitude is funny because it would probably make you a terrible coach LOL.

    You're probably right, only because Karl has had an unreal career, along the lines of Jerry Sloan. The Bulls robbed both those guys.

  11. #488
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Jonas averaged 6.7 minutes per fourth quarter, out of 28.2 minutes per game. So he played almost exactly one quarter of his minutes in the fourth.

    Further, he averages far more minutes in close game situations than in blow outs.

    You just don't like Casey and I'm not sure you'd feel any different about any other coach. You see the world as black and white. If he's not with you, he's wrong. It's a lot more complicated than that, especially when we're talking about developing a young player.

    edit: Jonas also played in 25 overtime minutes this year

    edit edit: also, do you not realize how, in all of your arguments, you pin anything good on everyone except for DC? does this polar extreme not strike you as strange and unlikely?

    Except your math is faulty.

    The reason his fourth-quarter minutes on average look okay is because he sat out so many fourth quarters.

    He played in 63 fourth quarters out of 81 games played. So he missed 22% of our fourth quarters.

    In terms of total minutes played, about 19% of his minutes were played in the fourth quarter. Since coming to the Raps, Chuck Hayes played 32% of his minutes in the fourth quarter.

    Another sophomore, Andre Drummond, played 35% more total fourth quarter minutes than Val.

    Saying that he averages far more minutes in close game situations is pretty meaningless, given that the same can be said for any of our rotation players. That's a function of our team... we were mostly in tight games throughout the year, not blowouts.

    ......

    The biggest problem with this is that Val really seemed to beat himself up after mistakes. He knew he was going to get pulled. His confidence was clearly an issue. The way you build up a player (or a person) is to tell them that it's okay to make mistakes. Just work through them and do better next time.

    The same thing was an issue with T-Ross. You could see how much his confidence waxed and waned.

    That's why it pisses me off when Casey pins the blame on the young guys and calls them out by name while letting the vets get off scot-free. Neither Val nor Ross is the kind of guy to not beat himself up over mistakes... nothing is gained by piling on when they know they screwed up.

    Letting players work through mistakes in clutch minutes is an investment. It might cost you a few wins early on but you accelerate development long-term. What happens next year when the pressure is on to meet or exceed 2013-14, given Casey's new lucrative contract?

    As has been said, Demar got plenty of time to work through A LOT of holes in his game, and it bore fruit. I don't see why we wouldn't take a similar approach with our other young players, especially Val, who I think has an even higher ceiling than Demar.

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  13. #489
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    Casey took a team from 23 wins to 48 in three seasons and if current trending holds is on pace for a 55 win season.
    If we don't make any significant changes to this roster by next season I am willing to bet you that we win fewer games next year than we did this year.

    This was the worst Eastern Conference performance in 35 years. We won't get that lucky next year.

  14. #490
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post

    Letting players work through mistakes in clutch minutes is an investment. It might cost you a few wins early on but you accelerate development long-term. What happens next year when the pressure is on to meet or exceed 2013-14, given Casey's new lucrative contract?

    As has been said, Demar got plenty of time to work through A LOT of holes in his game, and it bore fruit. I don't see why we wouldn't take a similar approach with our other young players, especially Val, who I think has an even higher ceiling than Demar.
    i agreed with most until here. letting players make mistakes on a team that is tanking is good for the organization but letting them make mistakes while not letting others is a recipe for bargnani. he played through all his mistakes, did it accelerate his development. i would also point to how fast pop pulls people who make mistakes, which turned tony parker into a pretty good point guard. there are so many ways to coach a young player and pros and cons of all. and less than 4 million a year isn't very lucrative of a contract. personally i would prefer the pop way to the triano way of development.

    we also waited 5 years for demar, with many people still saying he isn't worth the time and effort.
    For The Win

  15. #491
    Raptors Republic All-Star Miekenstien's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    If we don't make any significant changes to this roster by next season I am willing to bet you that we win fewer games next year than we did this year.

    This was the worst Eastern Conference performance in 35 years. We won't get that lucky next year.
    i'll take that bet.

    i don't think we were lucky this year
    For The Win

  16. #492
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    Quote Miekenstien wrote: View Post
    i agreed with most until here. letting players make mistakes on a team that is tanking is good for the organization but letting them make mistakes while not letting others is a recipe for bargnani. he played through all his mistakes, did it accelerate his development. i would also point to how fast pop pulls people who make mistakes, which turned tony parker into a pretty good point guard. there are so many ways to coach a young player and pros and cons of all. and less than 4 million a year isn't very lucrative of a contract. personally i would prefer the pop way to the triano way of development.

    we also waited 5 years for demar, with many people still saying he isn't worth the time and effort.
    We tried everything with Bargnani. Smitch tried tough love with Bargs (didn't talk to him for three weeks). Bargs was essentially uncoachable. It's simply his personality, and why he tested so high on the Caliper test; he really doesn't care what anyone thinks.

    Pop adjusts his strategy to the nature of the player. Tony Parker came into the league very cocky, and Pop had to discipline him into being a "Spurs-type" player. But Pop also gives his young players opportunities to develop in the clutch.

    In most systems, on most teams, the big minutes in the big games go to those who have already earned them. In San Antonio, Popovich knows those minutes can do a lot to inspire young players to develop. He has long been handing them out to players who would struggle to make a lot of NBA rosters. And he has way more than his fair share of those players evolve into meaningful contributors. Is it just that his front office knows how to find diamonds in the rough? Or maybe Popovich has mastered the art of polishing.
    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...gregg-popovich

    This is why flexibility is so important for a coach. Some players need a tough-love approach. Some need their confidence built up. If we were talking about a reckless gunner like Dion Waiters, I would understand the quick hook. But neither Val nor Ross is like that.

    Casey has a very rigid approach to vets and youth that dates back all the way to his time as a coach in Minnesota. It's the hell-or-high-water approach. Given that Masai butted heads with George Karl over developing the Denver youth, I would imagine this is the same subject that was alluded to when it came out that Masai and Casey sometimes butted heads. And I'm guessing that's also why Masai never brought in a true backup C.

    Now the question is how that development will continue going forward, given that we likely add another rookie to the mix next year.

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  18. #493
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    I think one of the big reasons he pulls Val (and Demar and Lowry don't feed him the ball too much) is that Val has a tendency to know not when he's open and when he's not. He rarely passes the ball back out when he should. And towards the end he was complaining to the refs too much. And missing defensive assignments. Basically the dude is still rough around the edges.

    I think the hand-holding with Bargs and giving him starters minutes despite making massive mistakes on the floor is case study in how not to develop a player. That's on me (Bryan Colangelo) as much as it was Smitch and Triano.

    The problem with Mitchell's 'tough love' was that there were no real consequences. I think that's what the players respect about Casey — he is makes guys earn minutes.

  19. #494
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Except your math is faulty.

    The reason his fourth-quarter minutes on average look okay is because he sat out so many fourth quarters.

    He played in 63 fourth quarters out of 81 games played. So he missed 22% of our fourth quarters.

    In terms of total minutes played, about 19% of his minutes were played in the fourth quarter. Since coming to the Raps, Chuck Hayes played 32% of his minutes in the fourth quarter.

    Another sophomore, Andre Drummond, played 35% more total fourth quarter minutes than Val.

    Saying that he averages far more minutes in close game situations is pretty meaningless, given that the same can be said for any of our rotation players. That's a function of our team... we were mostly in tight games throughout the year, not blowouts.
    yeah, sorry guys. i kinda realized that after i posted it.. but was hoping noone brought it up

    So, including every 4th quarter where he played 0 minutes, he averaged 5.2 minutes per 4th quarter.

    So that's not terrible - and it seems whatever fourth quarter strategy was used did help the team perform well.

    So, sorry.

    But it's also not a huuuge difference.

    Re: Ross and JV looking frustrated at themselves - I think that could be spun as a positive in that they aren't satisfied with their play, you know they want to do better, they're going to work on those things etc. Again, that's a delicate matter that depends on the person.

    btw, i'm not as avid a Casey fan as my posts would indicate. I've kind of been playing devil's advocate to point out that a lot of the obviously glaring mistakes people point to aren't necessarily all so obvious.

    edit:

    “The upside of our players, that’s what’s the beauty about our team,” Casey said. “Our upside is there.”
    Last edited by stooley; Thu May 8th, 2014 at 09:39 AM.

  20. #495
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    I don't believe in the concept of "he's a good coach, but he can't win a championship." I think any half decent coach has a chance to win a championship with the right mix of players.

    It's like people complaining that T-Mac never got out of the first round. If he stayed with the Raptors and played a supporting role to Vince, he almost certainly would have gotten out of the first round in 2001 (and the Raps probably would have made the finals), but he'd still be the same player. A coach, like a player is one part of a winning formula. Having an all time great coach makes it a lot easier to win, like having an all time great player can. But any player can win a championship with the right mix around him. Same with any non-incompetent coach.

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  22. #496
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    Quote Other Scott wrote: View Post
    I don't believe in the concept of "he's a good coach, but he can't win a championship." I think any half decent coach has a chance to win a championship with the right mix of players.

    It's like people complaining that T-Mac never got out of the first round. If he stayed with the Raptors and played a supporting role to Vince, he almost certainly would have gotten out of the first round in 2001 (and the Raps probably would have made the finals), but he'd still be the same player...
    Agree. I hate it when people (and commentators on TV) say "Yeah, but he doesn't have any rings," like that is some kind of an indication of anything. Well, it is. An indication of bad management on the part of GM's the guy played for. As if aging veterans that go and play for a stacked team and accept minimal contracts are somehow demonstrating ultimate Bball skills. Acumen maybe, but not skills.

    Pops is the great example of a great coach, but who has done the drafting over the years? And how much has Pops learned on the job, with the luxury of starting Duncan and Robinson together while he learned?

    I'n not comparing Pops and Casey. Pops obviously IS a great coach, but when you can coach a group of guys with that level of personnel consistency, and you are essentially tweaking a roster each year as opposed to having to figure out a whole new group, maybe it is easier to be a great coach. Of course the Spurs also have the luxury of being able to go shopping for players that fit their system.

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    Quote Other Scott wrote: View Post
    I don't believe in the concept of "he's a good coach, but he can't win a championship." I think any half decent coach has a chance to win a championship with the right mix of players.

    It's like people complaining that T-Mac never got out of the first round. If he stayed with the Raptors and played a supporting role to Vince, he almost certainly would have gotten out of the first round in 2001 (and the Raps probably would have made the finals), but he'd still be the same player. A coach, like a player is one part of a winning formula. Having an all time great coach makes it a lot easier to win, like having an all time great player can. But any player can win a championship with the right mix around him. Same with any non-incompetent coach.
    I mean damn, Tom Thibodeau is an elite coach and has nothing to show for it as a head coach
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    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    Agree. I hate it when people (and commentators on TV) say "Yeah, but he doesn't have any rings," like that is some kind of an indication of anything. Well, it is. An indication of bad management on the part of GM's the guy played for. As if aging veterans that go and play for a stacked team and accept minimal contracts are somehow demonstrating ultimate Bball skills. Acumen maybe, but not skills.

    Pops is the great example of a great coach, but who has done the drafting over the years? And how much has Pops learned on the job, with the luxury of starting Duncan and Robinson together while he learned?

    I'n not comparing Pops and Casey. Pops obviously IS a great coach, but when you can coach a group of guys with that level of personnel consistency, and you are essentially tweaking a roster each year as opposed to having to figure out a whole new group, maybe it is easier to be a great coach. Of course the Spurs also have the luxury of being able to go shopping for players that fit their system.
    It's certainly an interesting question. People (reporters, fans, etc..) tend to get shunned if they question the greatness of Phil Jackson, he of so many championships, but he's never really coached what would be considered an average team or a team without an all-time great player(s). It's really hard to properly evaluate a GM, coach or core players individually, since their destinies are so dependent on one another.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    ...People (reporters, fans, etc..) tend to get shunned if they question the greatness of Phil Jackson, he of so many championships, but he's never really coached what would be considered an average team or a team without an all-time great player(s)....
    Jackson gets credit for shepherding collections of role players, undoubted stars and sometimes outrageous and conflicting personalities through the regular season. This stuff tends to get sorted out in the playoffs, but Jackson got a lot of teams there. Can't knock him for that. He used role players VERY well...on the other hand maybe that isn't so tough when you have Jordan and Bryant attracting opponents attention. Hasn't worked out for Melo though. Lots of great player don't have rings...the role played by coaches, GM's and staff should not be underestimated. Excellent talent helps

  26. #500
    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    We tried everything with Bargnani. Smitch tried tough love with Bargs (didn't talk to him for three weeks). Bargs was essentially uncoachable. It's simply his personality, and why he tested so high on the Caliper test; he really doesn't care what anyone thinks.

    Pop adjusts his strategy to the nature of the player. Tony Parker came into the league very cocky, and Pop had to discipline him into being a "Spurs-type" player. But Pop also gives his young players opportunities to develop in the clutch.



    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...gregg-popovich

    This is why flexibility is so important for a coach. Some players need a tough-love approach. Some need their confidence built up. If we were talking about a reckless gunner like Dion Waiters, I would understand the quick hook. But neither Val nor Ross is like that.

    Casey has a very rigid approach to vets and youth that dates back all the way to his time as a coach in Minnesota. It's the hell-or-high-water approach. Given that Masai butted heads with George Karl over developing the Denver youth, I would imagine this is the same subject that was alluded to when it came out that Masai and Casey sometimes butted heads. And I'm guessing that's also why Masai never brought in a true backup C.

    Now the question is how that development will continue going forward, given that we likely add another rookie to the mix next year.
    Actiually, I don't know how legit this is. But someone on the main page claimed to be close to the raptors organization and said valanciunis is very cocky and he wasn't being a good teammate after his double double performances in the first couple of games. So if hats true I totally understand how he got the quick hook so much
    Last edited by Yabadabayolo; Fri May 9th, 2014 at 06:12 PM.
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