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  • #31
    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Umm...no he didn't. Winter was hired years before Jackson got to Chicago (*2 before Jackson was hired as an assistant, 4 before Jackson was made head coach). And why did Jackson fall in love with the triangle? Because it's a system that limits the need to micromanage xs and os. And Phil only became a "master" of the triangle because he had years and years of Tex implementing it for him and learning it...Tex was his triangle specialist assistant for about 20 years.
    My mistake (I'm rusty on mid 1980's assistant coaches), but lets cut the bullshit. Do you think Casey has any of the head coaching talent Jackson has? Like will ever be anywhere close? Jackson was a master motivator and strategist. Casey almost crushed Lowry's confidence until Masai got here and built Lowry back up. Casey was basically crushing JV's confidence until Bayno got here and began working with him. I don't think Phil Jackson would have had these issues.

    So, let's cut the bullshit. Do you think Casey can be a championship coach in 2 years? Because that's what I think we should be looking for.

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    • #32
      Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
      listen to trex, he will lead us the the next level
      Oh ya, and Trex, make the game 6 thread soon.

      Lead us too Wictory!
      The name's Bond, James Bond.

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      • #33
        Lots of Dunning-Kruger effect going on here.
        If we knew half as much about coaching an NBA team as we think, we"d know twice as much as we do.

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        • #34
          wallz wrote: View Post
          How can you possibly say that with confidence? All we know is that nurse draws offensive plays for them sometimes. We only see a fraction of the coaching that takes place. They all play a part
          I can say it with confidence because I have 2 years of Casey coaching without his current assistants where he looked completely fucking lost on offense.

          There are also a plethora of articles written by the newspapers in Toronto talking about how Nurse heavily runs the offense.

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          • #35
            Primer wrote: View Post
            I can say it with confidence because I have 2 years of Casey coaching without his current assistants where he looked completely fucking lost on offense.

            There are also a plethora of articles written by the newspapers in Toronto talking about how Nurse heavily runs the offense.
            Only team in the east with top ten offense and top ten defense, so it doesn't seem to be much of an issue at the end of the day. But I get what your saying, it would be nice to have a "doc-like" coach that can run the team himself

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            • #36
              Primer wrote: View Post
              My mistake (I'm rusty on mid 1980's assistant coaches), but lets cut the bullshit. Do you think Casey has any of the head coaching talent Jackson has? Like will ever be anywhere close? Jackson was a master motivator and strategist. Casey almost crushed Lowry's confidence until Masai got here and built Lowry back up. Casey was basically crushing JV's confidence until Bayno got here and began working with him. I don't think Phil Jackson would have had these issues.

              So, let's cut the bullshit. Do you think Casey can be a championship coach in 2 years? Because that's what I think we should be looking for.
              I've been a very vocal critic of Casey. But you blindly hate him and refuse to believe he can have any success. Can he be a championship coach? I don't think so. Do you think in 2 years we'll have a championship calibre roster? I don't. So you should cut the bullshit too, and stop pretending you're objectively evaluating Casey in any way and just admit you hate his guts as a coach, and that's the main reason you want him fired.

              Championship calibre head coaches (as in, proven)....

              Phil Jackson
              Gregg Popovich
              Rick Carlisle
              Doc Rivers
              Erik Spoelstra

              (former coaches, Rudy T and Larry Brown)

              Those are the championship coaches for the past 23 years. So you want to cut the bullshit, tell me which coach you're sure is a championship coach that is a real target? Even the best options not on that list are at best proven playoff coaches who "failed" to win championships. So chill the fuck out and stop pretending you have a clue what the best course of action is.

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              • #37
                I think the best course of action at this point is probably to bring back Casey on a 2-3 year deal where you won't feel bad firing him. Keep the staff largely intact, where Nurse could be a potential replacement (I think he's more head coach material than Bayno), but I think Nurse will also benefit from another year or two in a support role because he doesn't have a lot of general NBA experience in any capacity.

                If things go south, nothing's keeping you from firing Casey if it's a short deal. No "great" coach is likely taking this job for another year or two anyway as well. At least until Jonas takes another couple of steps in his development, and this team shows it's a repeat playoff threat.

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                • #38
                  Interesting that Lionel Hollins isnt getting any love
                  He's a guy that values gritty defensive ball and would do great things to Jonas
                  He doesn't like hero ball and prefers methodical ball
                  Only problem is that he is not really an analytical guy, but that's not that bad

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                  • #39
                    white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    I think the best course of action at this point is probably to bring back Casey on a 2-3 year deal where you won't feel bad firing him. Keep the staff largely intact, where Nurse could be a potential replacement (I think he's more head coach material than Bayno), but I think Nurse will also benefit from another year or two in a support role because he doesn't have a lot of general NBA experience in any capacity.

                    If things go south, nothing's keeping you from firing Casey if it's a short deal. No "great" coach is likely taking this job for another year or two anyway as well. At least until Jonas takes another couple of steps in his development, and this team shows it's a repeat playoff threat.
                    What if Nurse gets offered a coaching job for another team (a very real possibility), then are you comfortable keeping Casey as head coach? I'd be terrified of what would happen to the offense if Nurse left and Casey stayed.

                    I want a head coach where I'm not terrified of the assistants leaving. I want a head coach that has a chance of being championship caliber. Casey has shown me he won't get there. We might not get a championship coach, they're rare, but we 100% won't get one if we rehire Casey. That 2-3 year deal where we'd be comfortable firing him makes him a constant lame duck coach, which is even worse.

                    Budenholzer is the perfect example of what I'm looking for. He could be championship caliber, and looks really good so far with a very under-talented squad. If they had Horford healthy they might be title contenders the way the East shook out.
                    Last edited by Primer; Thu May 1, 2014, 09:31 PM.

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                    • #40
                      Primer wrote: View Post
                      What if Nurse gets offered a coaching job for another team (a very real possibility), then are you comfortable keeping Casey as head coach? I'd be terrified of what would happen to the offense if Nurse left and Casey stayed.

                      I want a head coach where I'm not terrified of the assistants leaving. I want a head coach that has a chance of being championship caliber. Casey has shown me he won't get there. We might not get a championship coach, they're rare, but we 100% won't get one if we rehire Casey. That 2-3 year deal where we'd be comfortable firing him makes him a constant lame duck coach, which is even worse.
                      He was a lame duck coach this year...and well, look where the team got. And I don't think that's true anyway. You give him 2 years with a team option for the 3rd...well if next year is a failure, you fire him during/after the year. Nurse is probably still around too.

                      If Nurse gets offered another job? Good for him. Will a team offer him one? Tough to know. His name has not surfaced once in any head coaching rumours so far. Hard to see that happening so soon. Most assistants have more established NBA resumes before getting head coaching gigs.

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                      • #41
                        white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                        i think the best course of action at this point is probably to bring back casey on a 2-3 year deal where you won't feel bad firing him. Keep the staff largely intact, where nurse could be a potential replacement (i think he's more head coach material than bayno), but i think nurse will also benefit from another year or two in a support role because he doesn't have a lot of general nba experience in any capacity.

                        If things go south, nothing's keeping you from firing casey if it's a short deal. No "great" coach is likely taking this job for another year or two anyway as well. At least until jonas takes another couple of steps in his development, and this team shows it's a repeat playoff threat.
                        we agree!

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                          He was a lame duck coach this year...and well, look where the team got. And I don't think that's true anyway. You give him 2 years with a team option for the 3rd...well if next year is a failure, you fire him during/after the year. Nurse is probably still around too.

                          If Nurse gets offered another job? Good for him. Will a team offer him one? Tough to know. His name has not surfaced once in any head coaching rumours so far. Hard to see that happening so soon. Most assistants have more established NBA resumes before getting head coaching gigs.
                          Why in the hell would Masai make his first head coaching hire one that is likely to not work out and have to be replaced in a few years (you must feel similarly otherwise you'd be saying to sign Casey to a 4-6 year deal). If Casey is only worth a 2 year deal then he is not worth being Masai's first head coaching hire. GM's are judged heavily on that decision. Ferry got it right in Atlanta (jettisoning the winning yet clearly not championship caliber Larry Drew), and I expect Masai to do the same.

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                          • #43
                            I totally understand why anyone would detest things about Casey as a coach...but...

                            -Chemistry is ridiculously important. Casey has forged strong relationships with all our key players, including Lowry who has been known to seriously butt heads with his coach. Credit Masai if you want, but if Casey was still really pissing off Lowry, I think it would have become clear. Changing coaches changes relationships, and can create all kinds of problems. Sometimes even when you are just promoting an assistant.

                            -Casey's biggest flaws are trust in youth (pretty common among coaches), and seemingly poor offensive design. But really, on the latter look at our personnel and tell me at this stage how one could easily be to improve things there? Jonas isn't ready to take on a heavier load. Our ballhandlers/passers are not great enough to create as many easy opportunities as we'd like for him and our other bigs (and I scream about this a lot, but it is what it is). I'm not saying our O couldn't be better, but at least for this season, I think we, as critics overestimate how much better it could actually be with the pieces at hand.

                            ->So you could get a coach you know will devote a lot to developing youngsters, and he could fuck up a lot of other things. And that could lead to Lowry and DD becoming disgruntled if the team starts sucking.
                            ->You could hire an offensive coach who can't implement defensive discipline, and with our current pieces at their current stages of development, D is where we need to be at our best. I don't buy this "it's easier to get a defensive specialist assistant", since some of the best offensive coaches (Karl, Nelson, D'Antoni) have consistently failed to implement any kind of strong defensive identity at all.

                            In any case, chemistry/relationships can go south and totally screw up development and performance. Anyway, again, I've vocally frequently been against the way Casey does some things and wish we had a better coach, but I don't think it's anything close to a simple matter, and I don't think keeping Casey will be an unmitigated disaster that will screw this franchise.

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                            • #44
                              Primer wrote: View Post
                              Why in the hell would Masai make his first head coaching hire one that is likely to not work out and have to be replaced in a few years (you must feel similarly otherwise you'd be saying to sign Casey to a 4-6 year deal). If Casey is only worth a 2 year deal then he is not worth being Masai's first head coaching hire. GM's are judged heavily on that decision. Ferry got it right in Atlanta (jettisoning the winning yet clearly not championship caliber Larry Drew), and I expect Masai to do the same.
                              The converse is you could fire Casey, hire the wrong guy to a 4-6 year deal, and be in an even worse situation. Ferry got it right...because Budenholzer (who's been a head coaching target for years) finally decided to leave Pop's shadow. I think you overestimate how easy it would be to replace him and get better results. I get it, you hate him...that does not make him the worst coach ever or easily replaceable.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                                I totally understand why anyone would detest things about Casey as a coach...but...

                                -Chemistry is ridiculously important. Casey has forged strong relationships with all our key players, including Lowry who has been known to seriously butt heads with his coach. Credit Masai if you want, but if Casey was still really pissing off Lowry, I think it would have become clear. Changing coaches changes relationships, and can create all kinds of problems. Sometimes even when you are just promoting an assistant.

                                -Casey's biggest flaws are trust in youth (pretty common among coaches), and seemingly poor offensive design. But really, on the latter look at our personnel and tell me at this stage how one could easily be to improve things there? Jonas isn't ready to take on a heavier load. Our ballhandlers/passers are not great enough to create as many easy opportunities as we'd like for him and our other bigs (and I scream about this a lot, but it is what it is). I'm not saying our O couldn't be better, but at least for this season, I think we, as critics overestimate how much better it could actually be with the pieces at hand.

                                ->So you could get a coach you know will devote a lot to developing youngsters, and he could fuck up a lot of other things. And that could lead to Lowry and DD becoming disgruntled if the team starts sucking.
                                ->You could hire an offensive coach who can't implement defensive discipline, and with our current pieces at their current stages of development, D is where we need to be at our best. I don't buy this "it's easier to get a defensive specialist assistant", since some of the best offensive coaches (Karl, Nelson, D'Antoni) have consistently failed to implement any kind of strong defensive identity at all.

                                In any case, chemistry/relationships can go south and totally screw up development and performance. Anyway, again, I've vocally frequently been against the way Casey does some things and wish we had a better coach, but I don't think it's anything close to a simple matter, and I don't think keeping Casey will be an unmitigated disaster that will screw this franchise.
                                The fact someone so ardently supporting Casey is only willing to hire him to a 2 year deal shows how little faith you actually have in him. Must just be fear of change. I'd so much rather take a shot on someone like Brad Stevens and maybe get the next Popovich. If you really believed in Casey you'd want him for 4+ years. Luckily Masai is not interested in treading water around the middle of the Eastern conference, and I expect a long term deal to whichever coach he decides on.

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