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Thread: Off-Season Realistic Expectations / Predictions / probably devolve dream acquisitions

  1. #161
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Arenas rule is limited to players with 1-2 years in the league, so Parsons is past it.

    I think Morey won't risk making Parsons a free agent this summer unless he's sure he will keep him. He wouldn't go there without talking to the owner, agent, player and without being certain.

    I mean, it's not inconceivable -- bad management mistakes do happen, players want to return and then they don't want to return, owners say yes and then they change their minds, so never say never -- but it seems pretty close to inconceivable.
    Yeah, that's right. Parsons was indeed a second round pick, but Morey gave him a longer term contract, rather than the standard 2 year minimum, so they ended up with greater control and full Bird Rights, meaning no Arenas poison pill contract worries.

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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Arenas rule is limited to players with 1-2 years in the league, so Parsons is past it.

    I think Morey won't risk making Parsons a free agent this summer unless he's sure he will keep him. He wouldn't go there without talking to the owner, agent, player and without being certain.

    I mean, it's not inconceivable -- bad management mistakes do happen, players want to return and then they don't want to return, owners say yes and then they change their minds, so never say never -- but it seems pretty close to inconceivable.
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    The recent thread about which PF would look great beside JV inspired me to look into acquiring Mr. Taj Gibson.

    The reason why we want Gibson:
    Gibson would be a great fit beside Val and the rest of the team. He is a very mobile defender who is able to guard PnR's and protect the rim very well. Gibson is a great competitor and is a win producer. Having him on our team will make us an elite defensive team, this is a goal for my arm-chair GMing.


    A few things I am going to note before I get into the trade:
    -Amir Johnson is untouchable. He is an ambassador for Toronto and its fans and should not go anywhere, ever. He is also a stats geek's wet dream.
    -Patrick Patterson has stated that he would like to be a starter in the NBA. As an organization we should be respectful of players goals. I don't want to actively trade Patterson, but having Taj+Amir+Patt+TH on the roster is too convoluted and if we can put him in a position where he could start his agent will be very happy. Good PR for us.
    -The total salary at the end of this includes Lowry @ 4 years-47 mil, Vasquez at 3 years-12.9 mil, De Colo at 1.8mil (QO), as well as our 2014 1st and Chicago's 2014 1st and 1 of our second rounders.
    -John Salmons is given his buy out of 1 mil guaranteed.

    Here is the trade via the Trade Machine, and it goes like this:

    To Chicago:
    DeMar DeRozan
    Patrick Patterson

    To Toronto:
    Taj Gibson
    Mike Dunleavy Jr.
    Chicago's #19

    Chicago does this:
    Because they need scoring, DD and Patterson will provide a lot of this. Patterson is a very mobile defender and, even though is a downgrade from Taj defensively, is still a plus defender that fits into their system. Patterson is also a stretch 4 that would work well with Noah, Rose, and DD. DeRozan is an all-star to help with their scoring at high usage. Pairing him with Butler at the SF makes for a pretty nice wing rotation. Chicago's line-up looks pretty damn good now:

    Rose/DJ
    DD/Hinrich
    Butler
    Pattman/Boozer
    Noah

    We do this:
    Because Taj is a fantastic defender that makes us an elite defensive team is great in terms of attracting FAs (cough Durant cough). Scoring wise we will take a step back but it will force us to spread the offense around more to compensate for this. Our total salary including picks is about 63 million next season, but is only 37 million (including picks) in the summer of 2015. With the #19 pick I suggest we draft Glen Robinson III. Our lineup looks like:

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/Vasquez
    Dunleavy/Robinson
    Gibson/Amir
    Valanciunus

    We can defend at every position as well shoot better from the perimeter with Dunleavy and Robinson, who is a good spot up shot and is great at cutting back door. Overall our wing IQ I think skyrockets with this trade. Dunleavy is a very underrated player as well. Would be a great mentor for Ross and Robinson.

    I think that is a 50 win team each season. Finding an elite offensive player is the next goal of the team.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    -Amir Johnson is untouchable. He is an ambassador for Toronto and its fans and should not go anywhere, ever. He is also a stats geek's wet dream.
    -
    LOOOOOLLLLL, Untouchable !!! Amir Johnson ... Who despite playing along side of a Rookie managed to have the following averages for 2013/2014:

    RB: 6.6
    AST:1.5
    ST: 0.7
    BLK: 1.1
    PSF:3.5
    PPG: 10.4

    That is our untouchable player

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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    LOOOOOLLLLL, Untouchable !!! Amir Johnson ... Who despite playing along side of a Rookie managed to have the following averages for 2013/2014:

    RB: 6.6
    AST:1.5
    ST: 0.7
    BLK: 1.1
    PSF:3.5
    PPG: 10.4

    That is our untouchable player
    the intangibles buddy the intangibles thats what he brings... cant put them in any kind of statistical category. basketball is more than just stats on paper.

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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    LOOOOOLLLLL, Untouchable !!! Amir Johnson ... Who despite playing along side of a Rookie managed to have the following averages for 2013/2014:

    RB: 6.6
    AST:1.5
    ST: 0.7
    BLK: 1.1
    PSF:3.5
    PPG: 10.4

    That is our untouchable player
    Here is my reasoning:

    1) Amir has extreme social/community value to the Raptors that goes way above his on-court production. Trading Amir would mean trading Toronto's favorite basketball son.

    2) Amir's value is not in raw box scores, the dude is an advanced stat stud who has been a 2nd tier win-producer for years. You do not trade those types of players.

    Combining these 2 make him "untouchable" to me. He should be a Raptor for life. If you don't see the value that Amir has to this franchise I cannot help you.

    A rotation of Taj+Val+Amir would be the strongest rotation in the league by far. Also in the trade we would have to send back 1 of Amir, Patterson and Hansborough...of which only Patterson and Amir have vlaue....and Amir is better and more important to the Raps

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    To Chicago:
    DeMar DeRozan
    Patrick Patterson

    To Toronto:
    Taj Gibson
    Mike Dunleavy Jr.
    Chicago's #19
    i would not do that trade.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

  8. #168
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    i would not do that trade.
    Why?

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Why?
    2Pat, though I would love to keep him, is a good trade for Taj Gibson if he will not resign, but I don't like DD for Dunleavy and the pick.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    2Pat, though I would love to keep him, is a good trade for Taj Gibson if he will not resign, but I don't like DD for Dunleavy and the pick.
    Lol Taj is just about worth DD in terms of his impact on the court.

    Taj is just that good defensively. Offensively, Chicago relied on him too much this past season, which hurt his efficiency quite a bit. In the Raptors scheme I think he could do very well at around 18% usage.

    There is no way that Chicago trades Taj for Patterson though. Patterson is definitely not worth that much. Chicago would want Taj for Patterson+Ross, which would be a loss for us.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    The recent thread about which PF would look great beside JV inspired me to look into acquiring Mr. Taj Gibson.

    The reason why we want Gibson:
    Gibson would be a great fit beside Val and the rest of the team. He is a very mobile defender who is able to guard PnR's and protect the rim very well. Gibson is a great competitor and is a win producer. Having him on our team will make us an elite defensive team, this is a goal for my arm-chair GMing.


    A few things I am going to note before I get into the trade:
    -Amir Johnson is untouchable. He is an ambassador for Toronto and its fans and should not go anywhere, ever. He is also a stats geek's wet dream.
    -Patrick Patterson has stated that he would like to be a starter in the NBA. As an organization we should be respectful of players goals. I don't want to actively trade Patterson, but having Taj+Amir+Patt+TH on the roster is too convoluted and if we can put him in a position where he could start his agent will be very happy. Good PR for us.
    -The total salary at the end of this includes Lowry @ 4 years-47 mil, Vasquez at 3 years-12.9 mil, De Colo at 1.8mil (QO), as well as our 2014 1st and Chicago's 2014 1st and 1 of our second rounders.
    -John Salmons is given his buy out of 1 mil guaranteed.

    Here is the trade via the Trade Machine, and it goes like this:

    To Chicago:
    DeMar DeRozan
    Patrick Patterson

    To Toronto:
    Taj Gibson
    Mike Dunleavy Jr.
    Chicago's #19

    Chicago does this:
    Because they need scoring, DD and Patterson will provide a lot of this. Patterson is a very mobile defender and, even though is a downgrade from Taj defensively, is still a plus defender that fits into their system. Patterson is also a stretch 4 that would work well with Noah, Rose, and DD. DeRozan is an all-star to help with their scoring at high usage. Pairing him with Butler at the SF makes for a pretty nice wing rotation. Chicago's line-up looks pretty damn good now:

    Rose/DJ
    DD/Hinrich
    Butler
    Pattman/Boozer
    Noah

    We do this:
    Because Taj is a fantastic defender that makes us an elite defensive team is great in terms of attracting FAs (cough Durant cough). Scoring wise we will take a step back but it will force us to spread the offense around more to compensate for this. Our total salary including picks is about 63 million next season, but is only 37 million (including picks) in the summer of 2015. With the #19 pick I suggest we draft Glen Robinson III. Our lineup looks like:

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/Vasquez
    Dunleavy/Robinson
    Gibson/Amir
    Valanciunus

    We can defend at every position as well shoot better from the perimeter with Dunleavy and Robinson, who is a good spot up shot and is great at cutting back door. Overall our wing IQ I think skyrockets with this trade. Dunleavy is a very underrated player as well. Would be a great mentor for Ross and Robinson.

    I think that is a 50 win team each season. Finding an elite offensive player is the next goal of the team.
    Dude what on earth... On which planet is this a good deal.

    I hope you realize how silly this deal is. You're trading our highest valued asset for a player who brings nothing to the team that we don't already have. Taj Gibson is essentially just a less efficient version of Amir (52.4% TS compared to 59.2% TS). They are basically a wash in every other area, and Amir is younger and has more range (range extends out to corner 3). Makes no sense to deal DeMar to get a worse version of Amir.

    So you're dealing your top asset, not improving the starting lineup at all (actually you're making it worse by replacing DeRozan with Dunleavy), and getting a mid-late 1st as well. Deal makes absolutely no sense from any angle. Chicago would take that in a second and laugh all the way to the bank. Gibson makes almost as much money as DeRozan does too so you're not even saving anything in relation to cap space.

    You need to just stop coming up with DeRozan trade ideas. All of them are pure garbage for us.

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    Man would the Bulls love that deal. You're doing them a favor by handing them a scorer without them having to spend any money, and giving them a solid power forward. If they wanted they could actually amnesty Boozer and go after Love in the offseason. All of a sudden we have a freaking dynasty in Chicago because OldSkoolCool doesn't like DeRozan.

    Rose
    DeRozan
    Butler
    Love
    Noah

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Man would the Bulls love that deal. You're doing them a favor by handing them a scorer without them having to spend any money, and giving them a solid power forward. If they wanted they could actually amnesty Boozer and go after Love in the offseason. All of a sudden we have a freaking dynasty in Chicago because OldSkoolCool doesn't like DeRozan.

    Rose
    DeRozan
    Butler
    Love
    Noah
    Then Rose gets injured.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    You need to just stop coming up with DeRozan trade ideas. All of them are pure garbage for us.
    You need to stop only posting about defending DeMar and add something to any other conversation.

    ___________

    Taj and Amir are duplicates, but that isn't a bad thing. I am worried about Amir's ability to stay healthy, having him come off the bench as our 3rd big would be great for his health, our win column and consistency. Both of their skill sets are perfect compliments to Valanciunas, who I am assuming we are going to be building around.

    Right now I'm looking to improve our defense in a sustainable matter both on the interior and on the perimeter. This is why a DD+Patterson for Taj+Dunleavy+(Robinson III) is a valid option for me. I do realize that offensively we would end up relying a lot on Lowry and Vasquez, with needed improvements from Ross and Val for things to work.....but defensively we become a terror where all we need is that offensive piece to bring things together.

    I realize that DD has had a pretty good season, but he is no where near the level we need him to be at offensively if we are to compete for championships. I think even you have said this imanshumpert, and have argued that he would make a great second option, I feel differently.

    His inability to be an off-ball catch and shoot guy from 3, his lower than average court awareness and poor defense are 3 strikes for me in terms of his ability to be a great second fiddle guy if we do end up finding a top option offensively. Hence why I have so many trades involving him, I just think that as good as he is, he is not a great for any championship level team.

    I would rather build a team from a defense first standpoint, then add offense options later, as they are easier (relative) to come by.

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    A bad (or just not too good) offence and terrifying defence...

    Reminds me of a team... Oh yeah! The Bulls! Their playoff run was soooooo much better than ours right!
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    You need to stop only posting about defending DeMar and add something to any other conversation.

    ___________

    Taj and Amir are duplicates, but that isn't a bad thing. I am worried about Amir's ability to stay healthy, having him come off the bench as our 3rd big would be great for his health, our win column and consistency. Both of their skill sets are perfect compliments to Valanciunas, who I am assuming we are going to be building around.
    Amir's ability to stay healthy? He has only missed EIGHT games in the last 3 seasons. He doesn't have a health problem. Taj Gibson on the other hand missed SEVENTEEN games last season. So I'm not even really sure what the hell you're talking about here.

    Right now I'm looking to improve our defense in a sustainable matter both on the interior and on the perimeter. This is why a DD+Patterson for Taj+Dunleavy+(Robinson III) is a valid option for me. I do realize that offensively we would end up relying a lot on Lowry and Vasquez, with needed improvements from Ross and Val for things to work.....but defensively we become a terror where all we need is that offensive piece to bring things together.
    You're not improving our defense with this trade. Dunleavy is a worse defender than DeRozan for starters, so that's a downgrade there, and exchanging Taj for Amir in the starting 5 doesn't do anything for us defensively. So I'm really wondering how on earth this is a good defensive move. We don't become a terror defensively, we become worse.

    I realize that DD has had a pretty good season, but he is no where near the level we need him to be at offensively if we are to compete for championships. I think even you have said this imanshumpert, and have argued that he would make a great second option, I feel differently.
    DD had a great season. I said DeRozan is not an ideal #1 option on a championship level team, because he is not a superstar player. That does not mean he needs to be moved. He is paid like a 3rd or 4th banana on a contender, so there's no reason to ship him out because he's not a KD, LeBron, Melo, Curry, Harden, etc type player.

    His inability to be an off-ball catch and shoot guy from 3, his lower than average court awareness and poor defense are 3 strikes for me in terms of his ability to be a great second fiddle guy if we do end up finding a top option offensively. Hence why I have so many trades involving him, I just think that as good as he is, he is not a great for any championship level team.
    You don't need to be a 3-point shooter to be a good second option. DeRozan is a great off-ball player, but he does his damage from mid-range and going to the rim. Not saying he's as good, but Dwyane Wade also is a poor three point shooter (DeRozan is actually better than him at this point imo from 3), but has no problem playing a lot of off ball next to LeBron. DeRozan does not have below average court awareness, I'm really not sure where you're getting that from. He does an excellent job of finding seams in defences and exploiting them to score or get his teammates an assist. His court awareness and IQ are a large part of how he's able to score despite not being able to keep defenders honest with the 3 and not having an elite first step.

    DeRozan is not a poor defender, he is an average one. There is a difference. He's not a sieve defensively, and overall plays solid defense and does a good job of limiting his man. Where he runs into trouble is when he's matched up with the best player on the other team, and that is because he's an average defender not a great one. I'm really not sure how exchanging DeRozan for a worse defender in Dunleavy fixes that, but ok.

    I would rather build a team from a defense first standpoint, then add offense options later, as they are easier (relative) to come by.
    This isn't even a defense first move. You haven't improved our defense at power-forward by exchanging Amir for Taj in the starting 5, and you've made our defense significantly worse on the wings. All while mortgaging our best asset and essentially getting an older copy of Amir who costs a lot more, is way less efficient and is on the books for a longer period of time (which is not a good thing given his contract).

    All you're doing is taking away scoring from the team. You now have less shot creators, and less guys capable of keeping the defense honest with double teams. You're putting the onus entirely on Lowry and Vasquez to create for everyone. Neither of them is Steve Nash, and there's certainly no Amare Stoudemire on this team so that's not going to FUCKING work.

    Boneheaded, Colangelo-esque move. Except BC would have enough sense not to trade an all-star like DeRozan and a great backup PF for Taj Gibson, Mike Dunleavy and a mid-late 1st.

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  19. #177
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    I'm not interested in Taj Gibson at all. All of the reasons why have been mentioned already. His defense is nice but his offense is atrocious. .524 TS% is terrible for a PF (and below league average for any position), and this season was his best ever in TS%.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    The recent thread about which PF would look great beside JV inspired me to look into acquiring Mr. Taj Gibson.

    The reason why we want Gibson:
    Gibson would be a great fit beside Val and the rest of the team. He is a very mobile defender who is able to guard PnR's and protect the rim very well. Gibson is a great competitor and is a win producer. Having him on our team will make us an elite defensive team, this is a goal for my arm-chair GMing.


    A few things I am going to note before I get into the trade:
    -Amir Johnson is untouchable. He is an ambassador for Toronto and its fans and should not go anywhere, ever. He is also a stats geek's wet dream.
    -Patrick Patterson has stated that he would like to be a starter in the NBA. As an organization we should be respectful of players goals. I don't want to actively trade Patterson, but having Taj+Amir+Patt+TH on the roster is too convoluted and if we can put him in a position where he could start his agent will be very happy. Good PR for us.
    -The total salary at the end of this includes Lowry @ 4 years-47 mil, Vasquez at 3 years-12.9 mil, De Colo at 1.8mil (QO), as well as our 2014 1st and Chicago's 2014 1st and 1 of our second rounders.
    -John Salmons is given his buy out of 1 mil guaranteed.

    Here is the trade via the Trade Machine, and it goes like this:

    To Chicago:
    DeMar DeRozan
    Patrick Patterson

    To Toronto:
    Taj Gibson
    Mike Dunleavy Jr.
    Chicago's #19

    Chicago does this:
    Because they need scoring, DD and Patterson will provide a lot of this. Patterson is a very mobile defender and, even though is a downgrade from Taj defensively, is still a plus defender that fits into their system. Patterson is also a stretch 4 that would work well with Noah, Rose, and DD. DeRozan is an all-star to help with their scoring at high usage. Pairing him with Butler at the SF makes for a pretty nice wing rotation. Chicago's line-up looks pretty damn good now:

    Rose/DJ
    DD/Hinrich
    Butler
    Pattman/Boozer
    Noah

    We do this:
    Because Taj is a fantastic defender that makes us an elite defensive team is great in terms of attracting FAs (cough Durant cough). Scoring wise we will take a step back but it will force us to spread the offense around more to compensate for this. Our total salary including picks is about 63 million next season, but is only 37 million (including picks) in the summer of 2015. With the #19 pick I suggest we draft Glen Robinson III. Our lineup looks like:

    Lowry/De Colo
    Ross/Vasquez
    Dunleavy/Robinson
    Gibson/Amir
    Valanciunus

    We can defend at every position as well shoot better from the perimeter with Dunleavy and Robinson, who is a good spot up shot and is great at cutting back door. Overall our wing IQ I think skyrockets with this trade. Dunleavy is a very underrated player as well. Would be a great mentor for Ross and Robinson.

    I think that is a 50 win team each season. Finding an elite offensive player is the next goal of the team.
    Thats the most lopsided trade ever. You're trading away an all star for a role player... wtf lol

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    My concern is that I think Patterson fits very well with Casey's defensive style and into any offence, so I don't think Taj is that much of an upgrade. Not to the extent that you lose DD (who at the very least is worth a great deal in trade) to make a debatable upgrade.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    My concern is that I think Patterson fits very well with Casey's defensive style and into any offence, so I don't think Taj is that much of an upgrade. Not to the extent that you lose DD (who at the very least is worth a great deal in trade) to make a debatable upgrade.
    I don't really think it's an upgrade at all.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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