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Thread: Off-Season Realistic Expectations / Predictions / probably devolve dream acquisitions

  1. #181
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    A bad (or just not too good) offence and terrifying defence...

    Reminds me of a team... Oh yeah! The Bulls! Their playoff run was soooooo much better than ours right!
    We would be much better than the Bulls offensively. They were terrible offensively.

    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    My concern is that I think Patterson fits very well with Casey's defensive style and into any offence, so I don't think Taj is that much of an upgrade. Not to the extent that you lose DD (who at the very least is worth a great deal in trade) to make a debatable upgrade.
    Damn...I guess I'm still shooting low on my evaluation of DD, and I really do think Patterson is a good fit here. Was just thinking tho for that specific trade Patterson would have to be an outgoing player.

    I'll keep searching

  2. #182
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    The talk of history repeating itself, a great thread and reminder for old head Raptors fans got me thinking.

    Much like Grange elucidates in this piece the Raptors are in somewhat familiar territory. On the crust of a surprise spicy pizza, delivered prepaid and pre-tipped.

    We face an off-season much like those(00'01 & 06'07) where Messiah Ujiri's contemporaries have over paid minor talents. Riding crests of fan adulation with teams that never managed to sustain, let alone, build on those results.

    In that vein, I ask what is your realistic expectations of this off-season?

    And offer Mine:
    Lowry under 12 million for 3years and 10 million for 4years
    Vasquez under 3.5 mill for 3yrs
    Patterson under 5 mill for 4yrs

    Canary in the Fields mineshaft:
    Thabo Sefolosha at/under MLE or if somehow possible S&T to OKC (I'll offer the expiring Fields contract, their 2nd rounder and our 2nd rounder.)
    Bringing in Thabo would signal that the training staff doesn't think Fields can comeback from his litany of medical issues to the level he was, and thus should be considered cap relief and no more.

    Otherwise I look to 14'15 Off-season for a veteran presence and/or impact player.

    Finally, for whomever falls to our First Pick to make waves in Summer League and push the players in front of them on the depth chart in camp.

    Lowry had one spectacular season and he's only 27. I don't think you get him for 3 seasons because someone else is going to offer max years. PG's with that sort of ability, toughness and courage aren't exactly a dime a dozen.

    Patterson is a must re-sign in my opinion. I hope they keep him.

  3. #183
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Lowry had one spectacular season and he's only 27. I don't think you get him for 3 seasons because someone else is going to offer max years. PG's with that sort of ability, toughness and courage aren't exactly a dime a dozen.

    Patterson is a must re-sign in my opinion. I hope they keep him.

    I'd love to see Thabo come to Toronto but I don't think he's exactly the most pressing need.
    But, but he's gonna take our offer, right?
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

  4. #184
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Ah... Right.

  5. #185
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Ah... Right.
    At least I hope so, I'm gonna feel more nervous in this year's free agency than I have in a long time. With Lowry, 2Pat and Greasy (Big Balls) Vasquez (and Nando de Yolo!) needing a choice:

    To resign, or not to resign?
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

  6. #186
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    Love trade

    Wolves need to move Love. So, assuming Love is willing to extend and trade (we'll just go ahead and credit Ujiri and Leiweke with the ability to sell him), or the Raps are just extremely confident we can re-sign him, what about these ideas?

    First, assuming the Wolves are looking for youth, picks, cap solace, blowing it up.

    Wolves send Love, Martin (21.1M)

    Raptors send Ross, Salmons, Hansbrough, Hayes, 1st 2014, better of NYK/TOR 2016 (19.2M)

    Wolves shed 8M really quick waiving JS and TH, take on one expiring and a rookie scale, and get two picks. Good return for a disgruntled star. Free up a lot of long term salary. Still have Pekovic as a trade piece.

    Raptors get their superstar, take on a vet piece in Martin who can shoot, to help spread the floor (Lowry, Martin, Love spread the floor nicely for DD and JV to work inside). Re-sign Vasquez to backup the 1 and 2, Patterson to round out the big rotation (with Amir taking the backup C minutes), and letting Fields play as the defensive specialist in the wing rotation (need a little help there with DD and Martin on the wing).

    Lowry - Vasquez - de Colo
    Martin - Ross - Vasquez
    DD - Ross - Fields
    Love - Patterson - Johnson
    JV - Johnson - 2nd rounder

    Second, if the Wolves are looking to retool, rather than rebuild. Assume they want to keep Martin as a key piece, bring in good players to put around Pekovic and Rubio. Still want a pick probably, and some salary relief.

    Wolves send Love, Brewer (19.2M)

    Raptors send DeRozan, Amir Johnson, 1st 2014 (16M)

    Wolves get a starting calibre PF, all-star SG, a little salary relief, a rookie, and rid of Brewer's long term deal (and player option).

    Raptors get Love and a 3+D wing (mostly D, frankly). Re-sign Patterson and Vasquez. Sign a wing with the MLE. Waive Hansbrough and Salmons, unless they can be used in a trade for a wing or backup C.

    Lowry - Vasquez - de Colo
    Ross - Vasquez - Fields
    Brewer - MLE - Fields
    Love - Patterson - 2nd rounder
    JV - Hayes

    Thoughts?

  7. #187
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    You have Ross in the first trade and in the lineup, do you mean a rookie?


    And I think that another team could package together a better package.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

  8. #188
    Raptors Republic Rookie The Chef's Avatar
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    Gonna throw a wild card out there...

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mljnml2

    Detroit gets: Salmons, Hansbrough, Novak (or some slight variation of our non-core players, ie Hayes, Fields)

    Raptors get: Josh Smith


    Rationale: One of Detroit's 3 starting bigs has got to go. Everyone talks about signing Monroe as a RFA, although he is a questionable fit with JV, and his defense is lacklustre. Everyone (rightfully) hates on Josh Smith, but a big part of the problem was his (foreseeably) terrible fit in that lineup. He had a very bad season, but he was a terrible fit in a disfunctional organization.

    He is an elite defender versus most 3s and 4s, as well as a top-notch rim protector. He is also very good offensive player if he focuses on his strengths in transition, slashing, and in the post. That's a big if, obviously, but our strong organization and team chemistry, with leaders like Lowry, Demar, and Amir, could help in that regard.

    Casey would obviously have to hold him accountable, and essentially ban all jump shots beyond 16 feet. FWIW, something like this happened in 2009-10, when Smith only took seven 3-pointers all season and finished with a FG% of .505. Last season he attempted 265 3-pointers!

    Amir would move to our 3rd big, capable of backing up both Smith and JV for 20-30 minutes/night, which would limit wear and tear on his beatdown body. We could keep Patterson as our 4th big, let him walk, or S&T him for a good-value backup 5 or 3.

    Detroit does this to get out of Smith's onerous contract, which obviously isn't working for them. They get cap relief from Salmons, Hansbrough buyouts, and SVG gets a little more flexibility in building his team around the killer Drummond/Monroe tandem. Also, Novak would have some appeal spreading the floor for these two young bigs. Throw in a 2nd rounder or two if needed.

    Essentially, Josh Smith's stock has never been lower, but in Atlanta was a borderline all-star and legit 2-way player. In the right situation, there's no reason to think he can't regain that form. Is Toronto that right situation?

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by The Chef; Sun May 18th, 2014 at 10:31 PM.

  9. #189
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    Quote The Chef wrote: View Post
    Gonna throw a wild card out there...

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mljnml2

    Detroit gets: Salmons, Hansbrough, Novak (or some slight variation of our non-core players, ie Hayes, Fields)

    Raptors get: Josh Smith


    Rationale: One of Detroit's 3 starting bigs has got to go. Everyone talks about signing Monroe as a RFA, although he is a questionable fit with JV, and his defense is lacklustre. Everyone (rightfully) hates on Josh Smith, but a big part of the problem was his (foreseeably) terrible fit in that lineup. He had a very bad season, but he was a terrible fit in a disfunctional organization.

    He is an elite defender versus most 3s and 4s, as well as a top-notch rim protector. He is also very good offensive player if he focuses on his strengths in transition, slashing, and in the post. That's a big if, obviously, but our strong organization and team chemistry, with leaders like Lowry, Demar, and Amir, could help in that regard.

    Casey would obviously have to hold him accountable, and essentially ban all jump shots beyond 16 feet. FWIW, something like this happened in 2009-10, when Smith only took seven 3-pointers all season and finished with a FG% of .505. Last season he attempted 265 3-pointers!

    Amir would move to our 3rd big, capable of backing up both Smith and JV for 20-30 minutes/night, which would limit wear and tear on his beatdown body. We could keep Patterson as our 4th big, let him walk, or S&T him for a good-value backup 5 or 3.

    Detroit does this to get out of Smith's onerous contract, which obviously isn't working for them. They get cap relief from Salmons, Hansbrough buyouts, and SVG gets a little more flexibility in building his team around the killer Drummond/Monroe tandem.

    Essentially, Josh Smith's stock has never been lower, but in Atlanta was a borderline all-star and legit 2-way player. In the right situation, there's no reason to think he can't regain that form. Is Toronto that right situation?

    Thoughts?
    I we can trade the players you listed and get him, I'm loving that deal.

    If we need to we could throw in a couple of our extra second rounders (this year and 2017) and MAYBE if we have to the less favourable of the 2016 1st round picks.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

  10. #190
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    I don't see Masai wanting to tie up that much future cap space on a declining overpaid malcontent. Josh Smith would be great if he didn't think he was a superstar and could play second fiddle. That has never been the case though.

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    Quote The Chef wrote: View Post
    Gonna throw a wild card out there...

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mljnml2

    Detroit gets: Salmons, Hansbrough, Novak (or some slight variation of our non-core players, ie Hayes, Fields)

    Raptors get: Josh Smith


    Rationale: One of Detroit's 3 starting bigs has got to go. Everyone talks about signing Monroe as a RFA, although he is a questionable fit with JV, and his defense is lacklustre. Everyone (rightfully) hates on Josh Smith, but a big part of the problem was his (foreseeably) terrible fit in that lineup. He had a very bad season, but he was a terrible fit in a disfunctional organization.

    He is an elite defender versus most 3s and 4s, as well as a top-notch rim protector. He is also very good offensive player if he focuses on his strengths in transition, slashing, and in the post. That's a big if, obviously, but our strong organization and team chemistry, with leaders like Lowry, Demar, and Amir, could help in that regard.

    Casey would obviously have to hold him accountable, and essentially ban all jump shots beyond 16 feet. FWIW, something like this happened in 2009-10, when Smith only took seven 3-pointers all season and finished with a FG% of .505. Last season he attempted 265 3-pointers!

    Amir would move to our 3rd big, capable of backing up both Smith and JV for 20-30 minutes/night, which would limit wear and tear on his beatdown body. We could keep Patterson as our 4th big, let him walk, or S&T him for a good-value backup 5 or 3.

    Detroit does this to get out of Smith's onerous contract, which obviously isn't working for them. They get cap relief from Salmons, Hansbrough buyouts, and SVG gets a little more flexibility in building his team around the killer Drummond/Monroe tandem.

    Essentially, Josh Smith's stock has never been lower, but in Atlanta was a borderline all-star and legit 2-way player. In the right situation, there's no reason to think he can't regain that form. Is Toronto that right situation?

    Thoughts?
    Honestly, that sounds amazing.

    I would do that trade in a heartbeat and adding a couple second rounders would get Detroit to say yes. If smith plays pf and is not the first option, he obviously isn't going to be, we can be a dangerous team. Smith can guard the lebrons and joe penis of the league. But only if he doesn't shoot us out of games, and that's a major IF
    In Swag we Trust

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  12. #192
    Raptors Republic Rookie The Chef's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    I don't see Masai wanting to tie up that much future cap space on a declining overpaid malcontent. Josh Smith would be great if he didn't think he was a superstar and could play second fiddle. That has never been the case though.
    Yeah, those are the two big sticking points: it's a big salary cap commitment, and projecting whether or not Josh Smith would fit into the team system in Toronto.

    Malcontent, maybe, but I wouldn't say Josh Smith is declining. He's 28, with no major injury concerns. Last season he suffered a major drop-off in efficiency & productivity, but since that coincided with his switch to a new team that was an obviously poor fit, I'm willing to bet he can regain his borderline All-Star form given the right situation.

    It just seems that this is a textbook "buy low" opportunity, and a player who's skill-set (athleticism, rim protection, interior scoring) fit our team needs.

    Rough calculations put us at about $3-5mil under the luxury tax after completing the trade (assuming we bring back all our FAs), with 11 players signed, not including our draft picks. We could use some of our mid-level to add another bench player (eg. Wesley Johnson), fill up with our 2 top draft picks (stash our late 2-rounder) and we have this roster:

    1.Lowry 2.Vazquez 3.DeColo
    1.Derozan 2.Wesley Johnson 3. (Empty roster spot for flexibility)
    1.Ross 2.Fields 3.#20 pic
    1.Smith 2.Patterson 3.Hayes
    1.JV 2.Amir 3.#37 pick

    Super athletic, extremely versatile, this team can run, shoot, and defend. After next season expire Hayes and Fields shedding over $12mil, we add more draft picks, and though we don't have much (if any) cap space, we have the cap exceptions, and lots of trade assets that could be used for another upgrade in talent and/or experience.
    Last edited by The Chef; Sun May 18th, 2014 at 10:28 PM.

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  14. #193
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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    I we can trade the players you listed and get him, I'm loving that deal.

    If we need to we could throw in a couple of our extra second rounders (this year and 2017) and MAYBE if we have to the less favourable of the 2016 1st round picks.
    Yeah a 2nd-rounder or two might be needed as well. Also, I should have mentioned that SVG would see some value in Novak's ability to space the floor for Drummond/Monroe to work inside. (my earlier post has been edited to include these details).

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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    You have Ross in the first trade and in the lineup, do you mean a rookie?


    And I think that another team could package together a better package.
    Sorry, yeah, Ross wouldn't be in the lineup.

    Better package than 2 firsts, a prospect, and salary relief? I'd like to see it.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Sorry, yeah, Ross wouldn't be in the lineup.

    Better package than 2 firsts, a prospect, and salary relief? I'd like to see it.
    I think we will. That's very modest compared to past superstar trades. Someone would join and raise the price like often happens with trades of this caliber.

  17. #196
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    Quote The Chef wrote: View Post
    Gonna throw a wild card out there...

    http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=mljnml2

    Detroit gets: Salmons, Hansbrough, Novak (or some slight variation of our non-core players, ie Hayes, Fields)

    Raptors get: Josh Smith


    Rationale: One of Detroit's 3 starting bigs has got to go. Everyone talks about signing Monroe as a RFA, although he is a questionable fit with JV, and his defense is lacklustre. Everyone (rightfully) hates on Josh Smith, but a big part of the problem was his (foreseeably) terrible fit in that lineup. He had a very bad season, but he was a terrible fit in a disfunctional organization.

    He is an elite defender versus most 3s and 4s, as well as a top-notch rim protector. He is also very good offensive player if he focuses on his strengths in transition, slashing, and in the post. That's a big if, obviously, but our strong organization and team chemistry, with leaders like Lowry, Demar, and Amir, could help in that regard.

    Casey would obviously have to hold him accountable, and essentially ban all jump shots beyond 16 feet. FWIW, something like this happened in 2009-10, when Smith only took seven 3-pointers all season and finished with a FG% of .505. Last season he attempted 265 3-pointers!

    Amir would move to our 3rd big, capable of backing up both Smith and JV for 20-30 minutes/night, which would limit wear and tear on his beatdown body. We could keep Patterson as our 4th big, let him walk, or S&T him for a good-value backup 5 or 3.

    Detroit does this to get out of Smith's onerous contract, which obviously isn't working for them. They get cap relief from Salmons, Hansbrough buyouts, and SVG gets a little more flexibility in building his team around the killer Drummond/Monroe tandem. Also, Novak would have some appeal spreading the floor for these two young bigs. Throw in a 2nd rounder or two if needed.

    Essentially, Josh Smith's stock has never been lower, but in Atlanta was a borderline all-star and legit 2-way player. In the right situation, there's no reason to think he can't regain that form. Is Toronto that right situation?

    Thoughts?
    I never was a fan of Josh Smith but it's pretty interesting. I think it's realistic too.

    It comes down to what you prefer -- get Josh Smith now, or be more patient. Do you want to use 13.5 mil of your cap space on Josh Smith. Or wait a little and target someone else.

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  19. #197
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    I never was a fan of Josh Smith but it's pretty interesting. I think it's realistic too.

    It comes down to what you prefer -- get Josh Smith now, or be more patient. Do you want to use 13.5 mil of your cap space on Josh Smith. Or wait a little and target someone else.
    It's weird, I honestly believe j smoove can bring us to the next level. He has the size and the talent to guard big small forwards and the strength to guard power forwards. And if we are just sending over dead expiring weight, that sounds amazing.

    This is only true if smoove doesn't shoot threes, and that's a massive IF
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    To the Love Trade: We're not getting him. You want a better offer? Gibson+Mirotic+2014 pick. Dragic+Morris+Frye+2 1st rounders. Barnes/Thompson+Green+Lee+Future First rounder. Shoot, they'd probably prefer the high Lakers pick. But Love will not be a Raptor. Sad reality of the situation.

    To the Smith Trade: Not a fan. In a vacuum, giving up those assets for Smith is wonderful. But on a team with three capable bigs, two of whom play the 4, Smith will have to spend at least a little time at the 3. Factor in that Ross is not a 3 despite all attempts to convince us to the contrary, he's going to probably start at the 3. Ugh. Now, in conjuction with a trade for a real SF, preferably sending away either Amir or 2-Pat, that's something I can get behind.
    @Boymusic66

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    Default Off-Season Realistic Expectations / Predictions / probably devolve dream acqu...

    Just a useless trade

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    A Josh Smith trade as outlined is a bad idea because we're essentially repeating Detroit's problem: with Smith as a 3, we're running a front line that provides no spacing and clogs the paint, and then relying on the backcourt to provide spacing except whoops DeMar is an average three-point shooter at best so no, it's a bad idea. If we run Smith as a 4, then he works, but we have good talent at the 4 already who's more economical.

    Josh Smith is a good player, but he's not a good fit for us. He'd excel on a team with heaps of three-point shooting; Golden State should be talking to Detroit about a straight-up David Lee for Smith trade if the Warriors can't land Kevin Love, Houston could send over Jeremy Lin, etc. But we're an average three-point shooting team at best.

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