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Thread: Rank your top SGs.

  1. #81
    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    It's games like this from Stephenson that would make me hesitate from having him on my team. Intangibles may not show up in the stat sheet but I'll take Demar all day every day over a knucklehead like this.


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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Also add in Matthews for Lillard, which is probably why he is lower.

    Tho the combination does roughly pass my sniff test, where I had Harden, Waiters, Ellis and DD in the bottom half of my top ten
    It doesn't pass your "sniff test" at all. You said this about DeRozan:

    No. He normally fails as a team defender with poor rotations and even worse close outs, as well as he lets people blow by him (not as often as in the past) which leaves our bigs out to dry. He is a big problem defensively.

    I don't think we can win anything with him playing significant minutes in the playoffs
    Which is all completely falsified by those metrics.

  3. #83
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Which is all completely falsified by those metrics.
    More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

    DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

    That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.

  4. #84
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

    DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

    That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.
    I'm pretty sure you watched Derozan more than anyone else on your list. I won't pretend that i'm not a Demar supporter. However, your problem is that you ignore all Demar's strengths (free throw attempts, high usage, low turnovers, etc).

    It's pretty obvious that you have some serious bias against Demar.....I really like Waiters but he was better than Demar last year?? Look at all the data/posts showing how ridiculous your bias is....laughable.

    I must say that admire your stubbornness, but you can't run from the evidence forever :-)

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  6. #85
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

    DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

    That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.
    You're a bad defender.

    BOOM.

    *drops mic*
    In Masai we Trust.

  7. #86
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I'm pretty sure you watched Derozan more than anyone else on your list. I won't pretend that i'm not a Demar supporter. However, your problem is that you ignore all Demar's strengths (free throw attempts, high usage, low turnovers, etc).

    It's pretty obvious that you have some serious bias against Demar.....I really like Waiters but he was better than Demar last year?? Look at all the data/posts showing how ridiculous your bias is....laughable.

    I must say that admire your stubbornness, but you can't run from the evidence forever :-)
    I definitely do acknowledge DD's strengths. However I just don't value the things that he does well on the floor as much as what he does poorly. He is an offensive flow killer (via FTs or going black hole) and is a way below average shot creator (for himself or others) and driver/ball handler for a 28% USG guy.

    I'm sorry but in my books if you want to be a SG you need to at least spread the floor and defend if you aren't a shot creator or a good ball handler.

    Let me put it this way - DD is the skinny version of Corey Maggette. DD may turn the ball over less and is a better 3pt shooter, but doesn't rebound as much, get to the line as much, is less efficient and isn't as good defensively (and Maggette was never much of a defender, but was stronk). Corey maintained his success for a long time from the time he came into the league.

    Maggette was a good player, and DD is a good player. But when you think of building a team that competes to get to the conference finals each your, do you think to yourself, "this team really needs the abilities of Corey Maggette on the wing to make us a contender!"

    I don't think you do...

    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    You're a bad defender.

    BOOM.

    *drops mic*


    Nice burrito toss Joey
    Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Wed May 28th, 2014 at 12:06 AM.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

    DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

    That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.
    Dude just give it up man. You don't understand the game.

    You have biases against DeMar, and unfortunately you watch 82 Raptors games a season (I'm sure you don't watch nearly that much for any other team) where you can focus on and dissect his weaknesses while taking his strengths for granted like special1 said.

    Tons of evidence has been provided to prove that you're wrong. Waiters isn't better than DeRozan on either end of the floor. If you want to insist that he is, go ahead, but you look like a damn lunatic.

    I'm sure most Cavs fans would not agree with you and would gladly accept your silly offer of DeRozan for Waiters.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    I definitely do acknowledge DD's strengths. However I just don't value the things that he does well on the floor as much as what he does poorly. He is an offensive flow killer (via FTs or going black hole) and is a way below average shot creator (for himself or others) and driver/ball handler for a 28% USG guy.

    I'm sorry but in my books if you want to be a SG you need to at least spread the floor and defend if you aren't a shot creator or a good ball handler.
    No, you don't lol. How the hell does getting to the free throw line kill offensive flow? So OKC and HOU must kill a shit-ton of offensive flow then since they both have two guys that are top 10 in free throw attempts. Oh wait... those teams actually have top 10 offenses, I wonder how they do it with all those FTs killing offensive flow.

    DeRozan is the primary offensive weapon on the 9th ranked offense in the league. The fact that he uses 28% of the team's possessions while he's on the floor and that results in a top 10 offense should speak volumes. You can ignore it if you want as usual.

    DeRozan isn't a below average shot creator unless you're comparing him to point guards. The only pure 2-guards (I'm not including players like Vasquez or Dragic that are actually PGs, just play in 2-guard backcourts) that have a higher AST% than DeRozan who play >=30mpg are Manu, Harden, Wade and Lance Stephenson (basically plays PG); and DeRozan has a much lower turnover percentage than all of them. So objectively, he is actually a very good shot creator not just for himself but also for his teammates. You can give your usual bullshit counter-argument of "blah blah, Waiters has better handles, blah blah" but the facts are there plain as day.


    Let me put it this way - DD is the skinny version of Corey Maggette. DD may turn the ball over less and is a better 3pt shooter, but doesn't rebound as much, get to the line as much, is less efficient and isn't as good defensively (and Maggette was never much of a defender, but was stronk). Corey maintained his success for a long time from the time he came into the league.
    DeRozan is a much better passer than Maggette was. Higher assist rate, and nearly double that of his turnover rate. Maggette's turnover rate was higher than his assist rate. It's a good comparison though, and i'm also not really sure how it's an insult or takes anything away from DeMar. Maggette never winning anything has more to do with him never playing on good teams. His Clippers career was basically him, Brand and a whole bunch of mediocre players.

    Maggette was a good player, and DD is a good player. But when you think of building a team that competes to get to the conference finals each your, do you think to yourself, "this team really needs the abilities of Corey Maggette on the wing to make us a contender!"
    Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters. Give it a freaking rest. Nobody here is calling DeMar a franchise cornerstone, but he sure as hell is a lot better than you give him credit for.

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  12. #89
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    No, you don't lol. How the hell does getting to the free throw line kill offensive flow? So OKC and HOU must kill a shit-ton of offensive flow then since they both have two guys that are top 10 in free throw attempts. Oh wait... those teams actually have top 10 offenses, I wonder how they do it with all those FTs killing offensive flow.

    DeRozan is the primary offensive weapon on the 9th ranked offense in the league. The fact that he uses 28% of the team's possessions while he's on the floor and that results in a top 10 offense should speak volumes. You can ignore it if you want as usual.

    DeRozan isn't a below average shot creator unless you're comparing him to point guards. The only pure 2-guards (I'm not including players like Vasquez or Dragic that are actually PGs, just play in 2-guard backcourts) that have a higher AST% than DeRozan who play >=30mpg are Manu, Harden, Wade and Lance Stephenson (basically plays PG); and DeRozan has a much lower turnover percentage than all of them. So objectively, he is actually a very good shot creator not just for himself but also for his teammates. You can give your usual bullshit counter-argument of "blah blah, Waiters has better handles, blah blah" but the facts are there plain as day.




    DeRozan is a much better passer than Maggette was. Higher assist rate, and nearly double that of his turnover rate. Maggette's turnover rate was higher than his assist rate. It's a good comparison though, and i'm also not really sure how it's an insult or takes anything away from DeMar. Maggette never winning anything has more to do with him never playing on good teams. His Clippers career was basically him, Brand and a whole bunch of mediocre players.



    Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters. Give it a freaking rest. Nobody here is calling DeMar a franchise cornerstone, but he sure as hell is a lot better than you give him credit for.
    Yes you get it

    No way in hellllll is waiters better than derozan in any fucking way. Wookie, sorry bro but you REALLY need to understand this. Ask any Cleveland fan they will agree damn
    In Swag we Trust

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  13. #90
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters.
    This made me LOL.
    In Masai we Trust.

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    No, you don't lol. How the hell does getting to the free throw line kill offensive flow? So OKC and HOU must kill a shit-ton of offensive flow then since they both have two guys that are top 10 in free throw attempts. Oh wait... those teams actually have top 10 offenses, I wonder how they do it with all those FTs killing offensive flow.

    DeRozan is the primary offensive weapon on the 9th ranked offense in the league. The fact that he uses 28% of the team's possessions while he's on the floor and that results in a top 10 offense should speak volumes. You can ignore it if you want as usual.

    DeRozan isn't a below average shot creator unless you're comparing him to point guards. The only pure 2-guards (I'm not including players like Vasquez or Dragic that are actually PGs, just play in 2-guard backcourts) that have a higher AST% than DeRozan who play >=30mpg are Manu, Harden, Wade and Lance Stephenson (basically plays PG); and DeRozan has a much lower turnover percentage than all of them. So objectively, he is actually a very good shot creator not just for himself but also for his teammates. You can give your usual bullshit counter-argument of "blah blah, Waiters has better handles, blah blah" but the facts are there plain as day.




    DeRozan is a much better passer than Maggette was. Higher assist rate, and nearly double that of his turnover rate. Maggette's turnover rate was higher than his assist rate. It's a good comparison though, and i'm also not really sure how it's an insult or takes anything away from DeMar. Maggette never winning anything has more to do with him never playing on good teams. His Clippers career was basically him, Brand and a whole bunch of mediocre players.



    Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters. Give it a freaking rest. Nobody here is calling DeMar a franchise cornerstone, but he sure as hell is a lot better than you give him credit for.


    I'm a DD supporter and I didn't even realize he was such a good playmaker but not only himself but for others. I knew he improved this season but it seems he was actually very decent. What really impressed me about him was how well he played throughout the playoffs, at least when you look at the stats. I really thought he would struggle significantly and he didn't. Other than his field goal percentage going down, which I think we all expected, he went up or pretty much stayed in the same in most other categories. His defense wasn't the greatest but as others have said Joe Johnson shot the ball just as well against Miami. I think we should all just give Joe Johnson some credit and just accept that he's actually a really good offensive player. Yes DD needs to maybe take away half of the long twos he takes and substitute them for threes or getting to the basket. yes DD needs to improve his D even though I don't think it's horrendous like others do. Yes he needs to continue to improve on his play making, ESPECIALLY when it comes to passing the ball to the roller in the pick and roll because he almost never does that. But he does a lot of good for our team and has improved on almost all his flaws, not by much but still. He's a very hard worker and is still very young so I have faith that he will continue to come back every year stronger at something he wasn't good at. Also compared to other shooting guards or just perimeter players in general, does anyone know where DD ranks in terms of his efficiency with the long twos he takes?

  16. #92
    Raptors Republic Rookie kopite91's Avatar
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    I don't mind Derozan being a ballstopper. The thing with Derozan is that he tries to overcome weaknesses, rather than play to his strengths. He focuses wayyyy too much on overcoming his perimeter shooting when he should be feeding off his bread and butter... his midrange game. Wade was never a perimeter shooter. He became one of the best SGs in the game because he added a post up game in addition to his midrange... something that DD should consider doing. Since he's added ball-distribution to his repertoire, he can space the floor by kicking out passes to Ross, Lowry, Vasquez, Patman etc. rather than shooting the three himself. DD does need to work on his defense, but I wouldn't put Matthews ahead of Derozan solely because of DD's defensive shortcomings.

    Matthews is a very good onboard defender and helps Portland tremendously with their perimeter defense. But offensively, he's just a spot up shooter and heat-check guy. Derozan can score in a variety of ways and with the added ball-distributing skills, his offensive repertoire is one of the best among SGs. But I will say that Matthews is an underrated SG for sure. For me, Affalo is the most underrated SG in the NBA at the moment. Just as good defensively as Matthews and like Demar, a very dynamic scorer.

    And seriously, people need to stop using stats like defensive shares to compare players. It's a flawed stat and it doesn't paint the full picture of player's performance. There's a reason James Harden barely shot 40% from the floor. Matthews isn't a big defender like Tony Allen or Battier, all-world defenders who have long wingspans and big strides that allow for good lateral movement. He's more like Kyle Lowry.. a bulldog who hustles hard and will fight for every lose ball imaginable and like Kyle, his all-out hustle causes him to play through the pain barrier every night.

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  18. #93
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    Speaking of Wesley Matthews.

    His progression is exactly what I'd like to see from Ross. Would be ecstatic if Terrence could reach his level of play.

  19. #94
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Me on Page 4
    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    BUT, I have since re-evaluated what we need and realize that Waiters, although he would make us better, wouldn't push us into that contention range.
    You on page 5

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters.
    Keep up bro.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    No, you don't lol. How the hell does getting to the free throw line kill offensive flow? So OKC and HOU must kill a shit-ton of offensive flow then since they both have two guys that are top 10 in free throw attempts. Oh wait... those teams actually have top 10 offenses, I wonder how they do it with all those FTs killing offensive flow.

    DeRozan is a much better passer than Maggette was. Higher assist rate, and nearly double that of his turnover rate. Maggette's turnover rate was higher than his assist rate. It's a good comparison though, and i'm also not really sure how it's an insult or takes anything away from DeMar. Maggette never winning anything has more to do with him never playing on good teams. His Clippers career was basically him, Brand and a whole bunch of mediocre players.
    The FT line kills offensive flow by stopping play entirely by either shooting FTs or forcing timeouts?? I don't know how you can say that it doesn't kill flow.

    Basketball is a game of rhythm and most of our players (Ross, Vasquez and even Lowry, Val and Amir) all are hyper efficient in the open court, it is hard to establish a rhythm when you constantly are stopping and going. Watch any team and they go on runs when they are able to string together possessions with no interruptions...until a foul or a timeout. An old cliche' is that "basketball is a game of runs", and having ours constantly being interrupted just so ONE GUY can achieve mediocre levels of efficiency is kind of a slap in the face.

    I like the Maggette comparison to DD as well and it does no disservice to DD, I was a huge fan of Maggette back in the day. But I think there are better ways/skills/playstyles for winning basketball games. This one may work for now...but I sure as hell don't want to rely on it.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Me on Page 4


    You on page 5



    Keep up bro.
    I'm about to lap you actually.

    You said, "this team really needs the abilities of Corey Maggette on the wing to make us a contender!", basically insinuating that DeMar is not a player you can win a title with and that's why you want him gone. Well I'm not sure how replacing him with an inferior player fixes that but ok bruv.



    The FT line kills offensive flow by stopping play entirely by either shooting FTs or forcing timeouts?? I don't know how you can say that it doesn't kill flow.

    Basketball is a game of rhythm and most of our players (Ross, Vasquez and even Lowry, Val and Amir) all are hyper efficient in the open court, it is hard to establish a rhythm when you constantly are stopping and going. Watch any team and they go on runs when they are able to string together possessions with no interruptions...until a foul or a timeout. An old cliche' is that "basketball is a game of runs", and having ours constantly being interrupted just so ONE GUY can achieve mediocre levels of efficiency is kind of a slap in the face.
    You are just ridiculous man... i can't believe you're trying to turn DeMar getting to the free throw line into a negative... I'm almost done discussing DeRozan with you. You are so biased it's unbelievable, like I have literally never seen someone paint a negative picture of getting to the free throw line.

    Top 10 Players in FTA/game:
    1.) Durant
    2.) Harden
    3.) Howard
    4.) Griffin
    5.) Cousins
    6.) Love
    7.) DeRozan
    8.) James
    9.) Anthony
    10.) Brow

    These are all elite offensive players... like I literally have no clue wtf you're talking about right now.

    I like the Maggette comparison to DD as well and it does no disservice to DD, I was a huge fan of Maggette back in the day. But I think there are better ways/skills/playstyles for winning basketball games. This one may work for now...but I sure as hell don't want to rely on it.
    No shit there are better ways/skills/playstyles for winning basketball games. That's why there are 55+ and 60 win teams and we're at 48. That's not because of DeRozan, that's because those teams have higher overall talent levels and superstar players. Trading away DeRozan for Waiters does make us a better team. In fact trading DeRozan for any shooting guard not named Harden does not make us a better team (I'm excluding Wade and Manu because they're old).

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    Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends?
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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  23. #97
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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends? Why can't weeeeee be friends?
    LMAO

    you should've known that a thread talking about anything will eventually become a DeMar DeRozan argument
    He's 2 years away from being 2 years away, but his wingspan is already here .

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    My hope for everyone here remains.

    The hope that we can cross the gaping chasm that is a Demar Derozan thread (which all threads eventually deteriorate to) and live together in peace.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    My hope for everyone here remains.

    The hope that we can cross the gaping chasm that is a Demar Derozan thread (which all threads eventually deteriorate to) and live together in peace.
    Actually, only the ones that don't deteriorate to Coach Casey threads become DeMar threads.

    I don't see the point of arguing with OldSkoolCool. He clearly values defense above all else, but doesn't think defensive metrics tell you anything. He sees DeMar as a bad defender using the eye test, which is all he has to go by, and therefore concludes DeMar is not a good player. There's no way to argue that.

    I'm starting to come around to understanding the "can't win with DeMar" arguments though. I think the DeTractors believe DeMar is incapable of taking a lower usage if options around improve. So they believe that even if we put better talent around him, he's going to suck up a ton of possessions at slightly above average efficiency, which will stall the offense. They may be right. I don't think they are. I think DeMar is perfectly capable of playing second fiddle if that's what's called for, and I think his much improved assist % this year is good evidence of that.

    Also, it's kind of ironic that all the DeTractors have basically turned against stats at this point. Almost every stat says DeMar was elite this year, but for some reason all those stats don't have the proper context around them.

    Sorry, that's a couple weeks worth of comments piled together. Carry on.

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    Lol, DeTractors.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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