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  • #76
    I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.

    I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.

    I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.

    These are the results:

    Jimmy Butler 1
    Dwyane Wade 2
    Klay Thompson 3
    Manu Ginobili 4
    Bradley Beal 5-t
    Lance Stephenson5-t
    Demar Derozan 7
    Gerald Henderson 8
    James Harden 9
    Dion Waiters 10
    Jamal Crawford 11
    Wesley Matthews 12
    Monta Ellis 13
    Arron Afflalo 14
    Eric Gordon 15

    I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.

    Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM

    Butler 6th of 57
    Wade 10
    Stephenson 14
    Ginobili 16
    Beal 19
    Thompson 20
    Derozan 21
    Henderson 25
    Matthews 26
    Waiters 33
    Ellis 34
    Crawford 42
    Harden 46
    Afflalo 47
    Gordon 55th of 57

    There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.

    In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.


    PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.

    Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.

    Comment


    • #77
      Scraptor wrote: View Post
      I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.

      I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.

      I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.

      These are the results:

      Jimmy Butler 1
      Dwyane Wade 2
      Klay Thompson 3
      Manu Ginobili 4
      Bradley Beal 5-t
      Lance Stephenson5-t
      Demar Derozan 7
      Gerald Henderson 8
      James Harden 9
      Dion Waiters 10
      Jamal Crawford 11
      Wesley Matthews 12
      Monta Ellis 13
      Arron Afflalo 14
      Eric Gordon 15

      I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.

      Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM

      Butler 6th of 57
      Wade 10
      Stephenson 14
      Ginobili 16
      Beal 19
      Thompson 20
      Derozan 21
      Henderson 25
      Matthews 26
      Waiters 33
      Ellis 34
      Crawford 42
      Harden 46
      Afflalo 47
      Gordon 55th of 57

      There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.

      In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.


      PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.

      Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.
      I need a synergy subscription. Great post man!

      Comment


      • #78
        Yay Scraptor!
        The name's Bond, James Bond.

        Comment


        • #79
          Scraptor wrote: View Post
          I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.

          I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.

          I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.

          These are the results:

          Jimmy Butler 1
          Dwyane Wade 2
          Klay Thompson 3
          Manu Ginobili 4
          Bradley Beal 5-t
          Lance Stephenson5-t
          Demar Derozan 7
          Gerald Henderson 8
          James Harden 9
          Dion Waiters 10
          Jamal Crawford 11
          Wesley Matthews 12
          Monta Ellis 13
          Arron Afflalo 14
          Eric Gordon 15

          I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.

          Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM

          Butler 6th of 57
          Wade 10
          Stephenson 14
          Ginobili 16
          Beal 19
          Thompson 20
          Derozan 21
          Henderson 25
          Matthews 26
          Waiters 33
          Ellis 34
          Crawford 42
          Harden 46
          Afflalo 47
          Gordon 55th of 57

          There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.

          In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.


          PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.

          Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.
          Nice post. One flaw I wanted to point out though: Thompson often guards the opposing team's PG. Curry is the player that's hidden on that team.
          "Stop eating your sushi."
          "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
          "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
          - Jack Armstrong

          Comment


          • #80
            JimiCliff wrote: View Post
            Nice post. One flaw I wanted to point out though: Thompson often guards the opposing team's PG. Curry is the player that's hidden on that team.
            Also add in Matthews for Lillard, which is probably why he is lower.

            Tho the combination does roughly pass my sniff test, where I had Harden, Waiters, Ellis and DD in the bottom half of my top ten

            Comment


            • #81
              It's games like this from Stephenson that would make me hesitate from having him on my team. Intangibles may not show up in the stat sheet but I'll take Demar all day every day over a knucklehead like this.

              Comment


              • #82
                OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                Also add in Matthews for Lillard, which is probably why he is lower.

                Tho the combination does roughly pass my sniff test, where I had Harden, Waiters, Ellis and DD in the bottom half of my top ten
                It doesn't pass your "sniff test" at all. You said this about DeRozan:

                No. He normally fails as a team defender with poor rotations and even worse close outs, as well as he lets people blow by him (not as often as in the past) which leaves our bigs out to dry. He is a big problem defensively.

                I don't think we can win anything with him playing significant minutes in the playoffs
                Which is all completely falsified by those metrics.

                Comment


                • #83
                  imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                  Which is all completely falsified by those metrics.
                  More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

                  DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

                  That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                    More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

                    DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

                    That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.
                    I'm pretty sure you watched Derozan more than anyone else on your list. I won't pretend that i'm not a Demar supporter. However, your problem is that you ignore all Demar's strengths (free throw attempts, high usage, low turnovers, etc).

                    It's pretty obvious that you have some serious bias against Demar.....I really like Waiters but he was better than Demar last year?? Look at all the data/posts showing how ridiculous your bias is....laughable.

                    I must say that admire your stubbornness, but you can't run from the evidence forever :-)

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                      More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

                      DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

                      That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.
                      You're a bad defender.

                      BOOM.

                      *drops mic*

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        special1 wrote: View Post
                        I'm pretty sure you watched Derozan more than anyone else on your list. I won't pretend that i'm not a Demar supporter. However, your problem is that you ignore all Demar's strengths (free throw attempts, high usage, low turnovers, etc).

                        It's pretty obvious that you have some serious bias against Demar.....I really like Waiters but he was better than Demar last year?? Look at all the data/posts showing how ridiculous your bias is....laughable.

                        I must say that admire your stubbornness, but you can't run from the evidence forever :-)
                        I definitely do acknowledge DD's strengths. However I just don't value the things that he does well on the floor as much as what he does poorly. He is an offensive flow killer (via FTs or going black hole) and is a way below average shot creator (for himself or others) and driver/ball handler for a 28% USG guy.

                        I'm sorry but in my books if you want to be a SG you need to at least spread the floor and defend if you aren't a shot creator or a good ball handler.

                        Let me put it this way - DD is the skinny version of Corey Maggette. DD may turn the ball over less and is a better 3pt shooter, but doesn't rebound as much, get to the line as much, is less efficient and isn't as good defensively (and Maggette was never much of a defender, but was stronk). Corey maintained his success for a long time from the time he came into the league.

                        Maggette was a good player, and DD is a good player. But when you think of building a team that competes to get to the conference finals each your, do you think to yourself, "this team really needs the abilities of Corey Maggette on the wing to make us a contender!"

                        I don't think you do...

                        Joey wrote: View Post
                        You're a bad defender.

                        BOOM.

                        *drops mic*


                        Nice burrito toss Joey
                        Last edited by OldSkoolCool; Wed May 28, 2014, 12:06 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                          More like he owes 1/2 his paycheck to Amir because that is who bails him out.

                          DD is a bad defender, you can tell this by just watching him play and watching him get blown by or improperly rotating.

                          That is, if you understand how players are supposed to move on the defensive end.
                          Dude just give it up man. You don't understand the game.

                          You have biases against DeMar, and unfortunately you watch 82 Raptors games a season (I'm sure you don't watch nearly that much for any other team) where you can focus on and dissect his weaknesses while taking his strengths for granted like special1 said.

                          Tons of evidence has been provided to prove that you're wrong. Waiters isn't better than DeRozan on either end of the floor. If you want to insist that he is, go ahead, but you look like a damn lunatic.

                          I'm sure most Cavs fans would not agree with you and would gladly accept your silly offer of DeRozan for Waiters.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
                            I definitely do acknowledge DD's strengths. However I just don't value the things that he does well on the floor as much as what he does poorly. He is an offensive flow killer (via FTs or going black hole) and is a way below average shot creator (for himself or others) and driver/ball handler for a 28% USG guy.

                            I'm sorry but in my books if you want to be a SG you need to at least spread the floor and defend if you aren't a shot creator or a good ball handler.
                            No, you don't lol. How the hell does getting to the free throw line kill offensive flow? So OKC and HOU must kill a shit-ton of offensive flow then since they both have two guys that are top 10 in free throw attempts. Oh wait... those teams actually have top 10 offenses, I wonder how they do it with all those FTs killing offensive flow.

                            DeRozan is the primary offensive weapon on the 9th ranked offense in the league. The fact that he uses 28% of the team's possessions while he's on the floor and that results in a top 10 offense should speak volumes. You can ignore it if you want as usual.

                            DeRozan isn't a below average shot creator unless you're comparing him to point guards. The only pure 2-guards (I'm not including players like Vasquez or Dragic that are actually PGs, just play in 2-guard backcourts) that have a higher AST% than DeRozan who play >=30mpg are Manu, Harden, Wade and Lance Stephenson (basically plays PG); and DeRozan has a much lower turnover percentage than all of them. So objectively, he is actually a very good shot creator not just for himself but also for his teammates. You can give your usual bullshit counter-argument of "blah blah, Waiters has better handles, blah blah" but the facts are there plain as day.


                            Let me put it this way - DD is the skinny version of Corey Maggette. DD may turn the ball over less and is a better 3pt shooter, but doesn't rebound as much, get to the line as much, is less efficient and isn't as good defensively (and Maggette was never much of a defender, but was stronk). Corey maintained his success for a long time from the time he came into the league.
                            DeRozan is a much better passer than Maggette was. Higher assist rate, and nearly double that of his turnover rate. Maggette's turnover rate was higher than his assist rate. It's a good comparison though, and i'm also not really sure how it's an insult or takes anything away from DeMar. Maggette never winning anything has more to do with him never playing on good teams. His Clippers career was basically him, Brand and a whole bunch of mediocre players.

                            Maggette was a good player, and DD is a good player. But when you think of building a team that competes to get to the conference finals each your, do you think to yourself, "this team really needs the abilities of Corey Maggette on the wing to make us a contender!"
                            Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters. Give it a freaking rest. Nobody here is calling DeMar a franchise cornerstone, but he sure as hell is a lot better than you give him credit for.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                              No, you don't lol. How the hell does getting to the free throw line kill offensive flow? So OKC and HOU must kill a shit-ton of offensive flow then since they both have two guys that are top 10 in free throw attempts. Oh wait... those teams actually have top 10 offenses, I wonder how they do it with all those FTs killing offensive flow.

                              DeRozan is the primary offensive weapon on the 9th ranked offense in the league. The fact that he uses 28% of the team's possessions while he's on the floor and that results in a top 10 offense should speak volumes. You can ignore it if you want as usual.

                              DeRozan isn't a below average shot creator unless you're comparing him to point guards. The only pure 2-guards (I'm not including players like Vasquez or Dragic that are actually PGs, just play in 2-guard backcourts) that have a higher AST% than DeRozan who play >=30mpg are Manu, Harden, Wade and Lance Stephenson (basically plays PG); and DeRozan has a much lower turnover percentage than all of them. So objectively, he is actually a very good shot creator not just for himself but also for his teammates. You can give your usual bullshit counter-argument of "blah blah, Waiters has better handles, blah blah" but the facts are there plain as day.




                              DeRozan is a much better passer than Maggette was. Higher assist rate, and nearly double that of his turnover rate. Maggette's turnover rate was higher than his assist rate. It's a good comparison though, and i'm also not really sure how it's an insult or takes anything away from DeMar. Maggette never winning anything has more to do with him never playing on good teams. His Clippers career was basically him, Brand and a whole bunch of mediocre players.



                              Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters. Give it a freaking rest. Nobody here is calling DeMar a franchise cornerstone, but he sure as hell is a lot better than you give him credit for.
                              Yes you get it

                              No way in hellllll is waiters better than derozan in any fucking way. Wookie, sorry bro but you REALLY need to understand this. Ask any Cleveland fan they will agree damn
                              I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                imanshumpert wrote: View Post
                                Yeah man, because when I'm trying to build a championship team, the first thing that comes to my mind is Dion Waiters.
                                This made me LOL.

                                Comment

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