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Thread: Rank your top SGs.

  1. #61
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Defensive metrics are very flawed. DD is not as good of a defender as the metrics say. If you think he is way better than Tony Allen, or as good as Igoudala and Batum because the metrics say so....well I don't know what to say.
    I think its more the other way around; It's not so much you convincing me he's not as good a defender as those guys, because he's not, I'm realistic, I get that (though Batum isn't all that spectacular himself, from what I've seen). But Demar clearly better than you are giving him credit for. That's all. Nothing to do with those other players. But more so you acknowledging he's not a terrible defender. Because he's not. Regardless of how many times you say it. Yes, he's average, but hey, that's something to work with.
    Last edited by Joey; Sun May 25th, 2014 at 12:57 PM.
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    Yet you're still crazy to call him as good at defense as people like Wes Matthews, who completely shut down Harden in the playoffs and has always been a plus defender, although this wasn't his best year overall to my (useless) knowledge. also, Klay is an excellent defender too (highly underrated, where as his O is probably a tad overrated) who always guards the other teams best guard and does it well.

    1. Harden
    2. Wade
    3. DeRozan

    Rest of the list would take far too much effort given I'm on holiday in Norway and already a total nerd for being here in the first place
    Last edited by BigCamB; Sun May 25th, 2014 at 01:11 PM.

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    Does Derozan need to be an above average individual defender?

    If he has good defensive rating and win shares doesn't that show that he is a good team defender?
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    Does Derozan need to be an above average individual defender?

    If he has good defensive rating and win shares doesn't that show that he is a good team defender?
    No. He normally fails as a team defender with poor rotations and even worse close outs, as well as he lets people blow by him (not as often as in the past) which leaves our bigs out to dry. He is a big problem defensively.

    I don't think we can win anything with him playing significant minutes in the playoffs

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    No. He normally fails as a team defender with poor rotations and even worse close outs, as well as he lets people blow by him (not as often as in the past) which leaves our bigs out to dry. He is a big problem defensively.

    I don't think we can win anything with him playing significant minutes in the playoffs
    Well, okay then.

    Very pessimistic.
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    No. He normally fails as a team defender with poor rotations and even worse close outs, as well as he lets people blow by him (not as often as in the past) which leaves our bigs out to dry. He is a big problem defensively.

    I don't think we can win anything with him playing significant minutes in the playoffs
    I don't know what drugs you've been taking.

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    Quote Jordan Evans wrote: View Post
    I don't know what drugs you've been taking.
    And I don't know what games you have been watching.

    The things I am saying are nothing new

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    And I don't know what games you have been watching.

    The things I am saying are nothing new
    Am I saying he's a good defender? No. But his defense is not a big problem for us. He's decent. Be grateful he doesn't have James Harden's atrocious defense.

  11. #69
    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Right now the 4 teams left in the finals are Indiana, OKC, Miami, SAS. Those are the contenders.

    Each one of those teams have good defenders at each of the wing positions, with the weakest being Parker (who is underrated as a defender).

    The league is guard dominant, and if we want to win we need to be able to stop the guards on the perimeter. DD (and Harden) are not stoppers, and got knocked out of the first round.

    I am not content with having a major minute guy just being "decent". If we want to be a contending team, all of our major minute wings need to be at least "good" defenders.

    DD is not a "good" defender and has no place on my armchair Raptors team because of it. (among other things)

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Right now the 4 teams left in the finals are Indiana, OKC, Miami, SAS. Those are the contenders.

    Each one of those teams have good defenders at each of the wing positions, with the weakest being Parker (who is underrated as a defender).

    The league is guard dominant, and if we want to win we need to be able to stop the guards on the perimeter. DD (and Harden) are not stoppers, and got knocked out of the first round.

    I am not content with having a major minute guy just being "decent". If we want to be a contending team, all of our major minute wings need to be at least "good" defenders.

    DD is not a "good" defender and has no place on my armchair Raptors team because of it. (among other things)
    I'm just going to point out that Joe Johnson just as well against the Heat as he did against us... Also I'm really not sure how replacing DeRozan with Waiters (who is worse than DeRozan defensively and also smaller making him completely incapable of guarding 3s) makes us better defensively

    I think this boils down to you just not liking DeRozan.
    Last edited by imanshumpert; Sun May 25th, 2014 at 04:54 PM.

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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    So happy that someone finally has these guys in relevant conversation. Also Klay is a better defender than people think.

    My top 10 (no Kobe, he would be #1)

    1) Wade
    2) Manu
    3) Stephenson
    4) Beal
    5) Thompson
    6) Matthews
    7) Harden
    8) Waiters
    9) DeRozan
    10) Crawford


    Before I get flamed, let me explain.

    1 - If the player also played relevant levels of defense, they were automatically put ahead of players that didn't.

    For example, Wes Matthews is no where near Harden's offensive prowess, but his ability to play defense still makes him more of a plus player than Harden, hence a higher ranking.

    Manu and Wade are not prototypical shut down defenders, however they were both plus defenders on amazing defensive teams, plus their body of work just puts them on top of all the young guys on that list ftm.
    What does "relevant levels of defense" mean? I would really like a more in-depth explanation than that, because that to be honest is just BS rhetoric to set an arbitrary standard that suits your opinion. The only guys in that top 10 that are elite defenders are Lance (this is actually debatable, but let's just say he is) and Wesley Matthews. Wade can be at times, but he really isn't overall at this stage of his career. Manu, Klay Thompson, DeRozan and Beal are average to slightly above average defensively, and Waiters and Harden are below average.

    That qualification that you gave Manu and Wade "plus defenders on amazing defensive teams". Ok. DeMar holds his man to 19.5 points per 48 on .481 eFG% (I'm using that because 82games doesn't show TS% for this stat), and Wade holds his man to 20.6 points per 48 on .530 eFG%. You might want to argue that DeRozan gets "hidden" on defense against the worse wing. Well so does Wade, because LeBron always guards the best wing player on the other team. Hell Wade isn't even guarding Stephenson in the playoffs right now.

    Not to mention the Raptors were a better defensive team (10th in dRTG) than the Heat (11th) this year.

    2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)

    EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
    The only SGs on that list that are better than DeRozan in terms of taking care of the ball and creating for others are Wade, Harden and Ginobili. Klay and Wesley do almost nothing in that respect. Stephenson gets PG duties in Indiana but barely creates more assists than DeRozan (22% assist ratio to 19%), while turning it over nearly twice as much (19% TOV ratio to 10%). Not sure how the hell that makes him a better playmaker, unless you're going to tell me that those stats don't matter which would be utter BS. Beal is worse than DeRozan in both categories as well.

    It looks cool to have yo-yo handles like Lance and Waiters, but I'd rather have a guy who just controls the ball and sets up his teammates without losing it frequently like DeRozan. To me, THAT is a playmaker. Not someone who turns it over almost as often as he gets an assist.

  15. #72
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I'm just going to point out that Joe Johnson just as well against the Heat as he did against us... Also I'm really not sure how replacing DeRozan with Waiters (who is worse than DeRozan defensively and also smaller making him completely incapable of guarding 3s) makes us better defensively

    I think this boils down to you just not liking DeRozan.
    Lol you will not let that Dion for DD trade go, will you?

    I think Waiters is better than DD, and I do think the Raptors would be better if we had Waiters over DeMar.

    BUT, I have since re-evaluated what we need and realize that Waiters, although he would make us better, wouldn't push us into that contention range. Right now our need is a legit 3 who can handle some play making usage out of the PnR. One player who I think would be a great fit in TO would be Rodney Hood (well, Durant too)

    Dion is a pretty good defender when locked in, he has quick hands and feet and is very strong, he does quite well fighting over screens and is a good PnR defender (where DD is terrible). He just needs to be in a more defense oriented program for it to show. Sometimes he does float on the defensive end though and that is why I still ranked him in the same level as DD and Harden as "no-D" as per my original post.

  16. #73
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Lol you will not let that Dion for DD trade go, will you?

    I think Waiters is better than DD, and I do think the Raptors would be better if we had Waiters over DeMar.

    BUT, I have since re-evaluated what we need and realize that Waiters, although he would make us better, wouldn't push us into that contention range. Right now our need is a legit 3 who can handle some play making usage out of the PnR. One player who I think would be a great fit in TO would be Rodney Hood (well, Durant too)

    Dion is a pretty good defender when locked in, he has quick hands and feet and is very strong, he does quite well fighting over screens and is a good PnR defender (where DD is terrible). He just needs to be in a more defense oriented program for it to show. Sometimes he does float on the defensive end though and that is why I still ranked him in the same level as DD and Harden as "no-D" as per my original post.

    You probably voted Dion for the all star game.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post

    In a vacuum (1v1) I would take Harden hands down.

    But in terms of how each player fits within their team and affects their teams performance I would have to argue that Wesley is a better winner than Harden. For example if I am the Blazers, I think Wes is a better fit beside Lillard than Harden would be, therefor to the Blazers, Matthews > Harden.

    My proof: Blazers/Rockets series. Who won that?
    You're over analyzing everything. Take Harden off the Rockets and replace him with Matthews i don't think they make the playoffs. Put Harden on the Blazers along with LA and Lillard and i bet they'd be one of the fav to win it all.

    And you can't blame Harden for the Rockets losing that series against Portland. Yeah he struggled offensively and Matthews played him well defensively, but Harden still averaged 26ppg. The Rockets as a WHOLE are a terrible defensive team just like Portland. Portland's defense was just a little bit better in that series.

    Like i said, you're over analyzing everything. I don't care about the team structure. Give me the all star player over the role player any day of the week.
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    Quote OldSkoolCool wrote: View Post
    Lol you will not let that Dion for DD trade go, will you?

    I think Waiters is better than DD, and I do think the Raptors would be better if we had Waiters over DeMar.

    BUT, I have since re-evaluated what we need and realize that Waiters, although he would make us better, wouldn't push us into that contention range. Right now our need is a legit 3 who can handle some play making usage out of the PnR. One player who I think would be a great fit in TO would be Rodney Hood (well, Durant too)

    Dion is a pretty good defender when locked in, he has quick hands and feet and is very strong, he does quite well fighting over screens and is a good PnR defender (where DD is terrible). He just needs to be in a more defense oriented program for it to show. Sometimes he does float on the defensive end though and that is why I still ranked him in the same level as DD and Harden as "no-D" as per my original post.
    Actually DeRozan only allow 0.73 points per possession on the pick and roll which compares favourably to guys like Paul George (0.71) and Andre Iguodala (0.71). I couldn't find Waiters stats, just saw a table here that had stats for a few players.

    http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...e-Player/page3 (Don't agree wit h the article btw, just using the stats from it).

    Overall DeRozan allows 0.76 points per possession (40th in the NBA) compared to Waiters 0.94 (334th) the league average is about 0.88. Now obviously you take this stat with a grain of salt. For example DeRozan is ranked ahead of LeBron by this metric, and we know he's not a better defender.

    Source: http://www.bucksketball.com/2014/03/...-distribution/

    But when we're looking at two guys like DeMar and Waiters who are typically assigned to guard the worse of the two wings on the floor, a nearly 0.20 points per possession gap in defense demonstrates that DeMar is actually a vastly superior defender to Waiters. You can ignore the stat entirely if you want, but it's pretty hard to argue against with anything other than the bias in your eyes. Waiters is actually worse than Harden also (0.85 PPP against).

  20. #76
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    I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.

    I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.

    I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.

    These are the results:

    Jimmy Butler 1
    Dwyane Wade 2
    Klay Thompson 3
    Manu Ginobili 4
    Bradley Beal 5-t
    Lance Stephenson5-t
    Demar Derozan 7
    Gerald Henderson 8
    James Harden 9
    Dion Waiters 10
    Jamal Crawford 11
    Wesley Matthews 12
    Monta Ellis 13
    Arron Afflalo 14
    Eric Gordon 15

    I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.

    Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM

    Butler 6th of 57
    Wade 10
    Stephenson 14
    Ginobili 16
    Beal 19
    Thompson 20
    Derozan 21
    Henderson 25
    Matthews 26
    Waiters 33
    Ellis 34
    Crawford 42
    Harden 46
    Afflalo 47
    Gordon 55th of 57

    There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.

    In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.


    PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.

    Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.

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  22. #77
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.

    I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.

    I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.

    These are the results:

    Jimmy Butler 1
    Dwyane Wade 2
    Klay Thompson 3
    Manu Ginobili 4
    Bradley Beal 5-t
    Lance Stephenson5-t
    Demar Derozan 7
    Gerald Henderson 8
    James Harden 9
    Dion Waiters 10
    Jamal Crawford 11
    Wesley Matthews 12
    Monta Ellis 13
    Arron Afflalo 14
    Eric Gordon 15

    I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.

    Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM

    Butler 6th of 57
    Wade 10
    Stephenson 14
    Ginobili 16
    Beal 19
    Thompson 20
    Derozan 21
    Henderson 25
    Matthews 26
    Waiters 33
    Ellis 34
    Crawford 42
    Harden 46
    Afflalo 47
    Gordon 55th of 57

    There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.

    In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.


    PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.

    Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.
    I need a synergy subscription. Great post man!

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    Yay Scraptor!
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.

    I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.

    I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.

    These are the results:

    Jimmy Butler 1
    Dwyane Wade 2
    Klay Thompson 3
    Manu Ginobili 4
    Bradley Beal 5-t
    Lance Stephenson5-t
    Demar Derozan 7
    Gerald Henderson 8
    James Harden 9
    Dion Waiters 10
    Jamal Crawford 11
    Wesley Matthews 12
    Monta Ellis 13
    Arron Afflalo 14
    Eric Gordon 15

    I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.

    Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM

    Butler 6th of 57
    Wade 10
    Stephenson 14
    Ginobili 16
    Beal 19
    Thompson 20
    Derozan 21
    Henderson 25
    Matthews 26
    Waiters 33
    Ellis 34
    Crawford 42
    Harden 46
    Afflalo 47
    Gordon 55th of 57

    There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.

    In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.


    PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.

    Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.
    Nice post. One flaw I wanted to point out though: Thompson often guards the opposing team's PG. Curry is the player that's hidden on that team.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star OldSkoolCool's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Nice post. One flaw I wanted to point out though: Thompson often guards the opposing team's PG. Curry is the player that's hidden on that team.
    Also add in Matthews for Lillard, which is probably why he is lower.

    Tho the combination does roughly pass my sniff test, where I had Harden, Waiters, Ellis and DD in the bottom half of my top ten

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