Last edited by Joey; Sun May 25th, 2014 at 11:57 AM.
Yet you're still crazy to call him as good at defense as people like Wes Matthews, who completely shut down Harden in the playoffs and has always been a plus defender, although this wasn't his best year overall to my (useless) knowledge. also, Klay is an excellent defender too (highly underrated, where as his O is probably a tad overrated) who always guards the other teams best guard and does it well.
Rest of the list would take far too much effort given I'm on holiday in Norway and already a total nerd for being here in the first place
Last edited by BigCamB; Sun May 25th, 2014 at 12:11 PM.
Does Derozan need to be an above average individual defender?
If he has good defensive rating and win shares doesn't that show that he is a good team defender?
The name's Bond, James Bond.
I don't think we can win anything with him playing significant minutes in the playoffs
Right now the 4 teams left in the finals are Indiana, OKC, Miami, SAS. Those are the contenders.
Each one of those teams have good defenders at each of the wing positions, with the weakest being Parker (who is underrated as a defender).
The league is guard dominant, and if we want to win we need to be able to stop the guards on the perimeter. DD (and Harden) are not stoppers, and got knocked out of the first round.
I am not content with having a major minute guy just being "decent". If we want to be a contending team, all of our major minute wings need to be at least "good" defenders.
DD is not a "good" defender and has no place on my armchair Raptors team because of it. (among other things)
I think this boils down to you just not liking DeRozan.
Last edited by imanshumpert; Sun May 25th, 2014 at 03:54 PM.
That qualification that you gave Manu and Wade "plus defenders on amazing defensive teams". Ok. DeMar holds his man to 19.5 points per 48 on .481 eFG% (I'm using that because 82games doesn't show TS% for this stat), and Wade holds his man to 20.6 points per 48 on .530 eFG%. You might want to argue that DeRozan gets "hidden" on defense against the worse wing. Well so does Wade, because LeBron always guards the best wing player on the other team. Hell Wade isn't even guarding Stephenson in the playoffs right now.
Not to mention the Raptors were a better defensive team (10th in dRTG) than the Heat (11th) this year.
The only SGs on that list that are better than DeRozan in terms of taking care of the ball and creating for others are Wade, Harden and Ginobili. Klay and Wesley do almost nothing in that respect. Stephenson gets PG duties in Indiana but barely creates more assists than DeRozan (22% assist ratio to 19%), while turning it over nearly twice as much (19% TOV ratio to 10%). Not sure how the hell that makes him a better playmaker, unless you're going to tell me that those stats don't matter which would be utter BS. Beal is worse than DeRozan in both categories as well.2 - I also valued the players ability to be a guard (ie ball handler and playmaker) more than a scorer. This is why I have Stephenson and Beal (better playmakers/ball handlers) above Thompson and Matthews (scorers). This is also why I put Waiters above DD, even though they are equally mediocre defensively. I think players who can penetrate and get into the paint at will are extremely valuable (see Tony Parker's career)
EDIT: I forgot Dragic, who has played SG and been a force all year. I think I would put him in at 5
It looks cool to have yo-yo handles like Lance and Waiters, but I'd rather have a guy who just controls the ball and sets up his teammates without losing it frequently like DeRozan. To me, THAT is a playmaker. Not someone who turns it over almost as often as he gets an assist.
I think Waiters is better than DD, and I do think the Raptors would be better if we had Waiters over DeMar.
BUT, I have since re-evaluated what we need and realize that Waiters, although he would make us better, wouldn't push us into that contention range. Right now our need is a legit 3 who can handle some play making usage out of the PnR. One player who I think would be a great fit in TO would be Rodney Hood (well, Durant too)
Dion is a pretty good defender when locked in, he has quick hands and feet and is very strong, he does quite well fighting over screens and is a good PnR defender (where DD is terrible). He just needs to be in a more defense oriented program for it to show. Sometimes he does float on the defensive end though and that is why I still ranked him in the same level as DD and Harden as "no-D" as per my original post.
And you can't blame Harden for the Rockets losing that series against Portland. Yeah he struggled offensively and Matthews played him well defensively, but Harden still averaged 26ppg. The Rockets as a WHOLE are a terrible defensive team just like Portland. Portland's defense was just a little bit better in that series.
Like i said, you're over analyzing everything. I don't care about the team structure. Give me the all star player over the role player any day of the week.
http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/sho...e-Player/page3 (Don't agree wit h the article btw, just using the stats from it).
Overall DeRozan allows 0.76 points per possession (40th in the NBA) compared to Waiters 0.94 (334th) the league average is about 0.88. Now obviously you take this stat with a grain of salt. For example DeRozan is ranked ahead of LeBron by this metric, and we know he's not a better defender.
But when we're looking at two guys like DeMar and Waiters who are typically assigned to guard the worse of the two wings on the floor, a nearly 0.20 points per possession gap in defense demonstrates that DeMar is actually a vastly superior defender to Waiters. You can ignore the stat entirely if you want, but it's pretty hard to argue against with anything other than the bias in your eyes. Waiters is actually worse than Harden also (0.85 PPP against).
I think a lot of Demar critics still cling to a view of Demar that was shaped by his first few years in the league, when he was a fairly poor defender. If you take a look at his game and his stats, his defense has clearly improved. The guy fights much harder and goes all out on closeouts, something he was more lackadaisical about before.
I wanted to give some context to his defensive improvement, so I picked 15 shooting guards, most of whom have been named in this thread, as well as Jimmy Butler as a control, to illustrate how Demar ranks among other SGs in terms of defense.
I took four sources of defensive info. For individual impact, I used Synergy overall and espn DRPM. For team impact, I used individual drtg (which is affected by your teammates) and on/off net opponent ortg. I ranked these players on individual and team d and then produced the overall rankings.
These are the results:
Jimmy Butler 1
Dwyane Wade 2
Klay Thompson 3
Manu Ginobili 4
Bradley Beal 5-t
Demar Derozan 7
Gerald Henderson 8
James Harden 9
Dion Waiters 10
Jamal Crawford 11
Wesley Matthews 12
Monta Ellis 13
Arron Afflalo 14
Eric Gordon 15
I think this passes the sniff test for these players too.
Just to give you some idea of the full breadth of where these guys stand, here is their rank among SGs who have played 1000 minutes per ESPN DRPM
Butler 6th of 57
Gordon 55th of 57
There are mitigating factors for everything. Some might argue that Derozan benefited from Ross taking the tougher defensive assignment, but so does Ariza for Beal, Iguodala for Thompson, George for Stephenson. The other plus in favor of Demar is that he shoulders an offensive burden much higher than most of the guys above him. His usage (for better and worse) is considerably higher than the other SGs, simply because oftentimes we need him to soak up possessions.
In any case, I thought this would be a good indication of how far Demar's defense has come.
PS. Interesting fun facts: of the 15 guards, Demar ranked 1st in isolation defense, 5th in defending P&R ball handler, and 6th in spot-up situations. He was 14th in post-up situations.
Opposing offenses (Ortg) improved by a whopping 7.1 when Monta Ellis was on the floor. +6.1 for Eric Gordon, and +5.9 for Arron Afflalo. Opposing offenses improved by 1.5 when Demar was on the floor, so he was a slight negative, but still contributed to a fairly solid defense.
The name's Bond, James Bond.
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