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  • #16
    RaptorsFohEva wrote: View Post
    Pretty sure we can go over the cap with him, as long as he's a minimum.
    What about the rotation?

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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    • #17
      I'd like to see if we could package (IF) that 16th, 19th, and 20th in order to get into the top 10. Maybe Philly, because they've got that 10th pick, or even Sacramento, Charlotte.

      To Philly: 16th, 19th, 20th 1st-round picks.
      To Toronto: 10th, 32nd picks.

      What ya'll thinking?

      Philly will have their shot at either Embiid, Parker, or Wiggins, then the ability to draft three others in the first-round, late, but still, with how deep this draft is, they'd be very lucky to select a possible starting line-up.

      PG: Carter-Williams
      SG: 1st-rounder
      SF: Wiggins or Parker for #1?
      PF: Noel/1st-rounder
      C: Embiid for #1? or 1st-rounder

      Lots of possibilities for Philly. However, if Parker and Wiggins are taken, it'd be tough to pass on Embiid, regardless of already having Nerlens Noel who I think will be awesome.
      Last edited by ReubenJRD; Sat May 24, 2014, 02:18 PM.
      Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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      • #18
        Great thread Mat...errr...mcHappy52

        I love the Chicago trade. There are enough pieces that we have that could help them contend next season with the return of Rose, we could offer them a bit more than Stone and Buycks too, with one Steve "Super" Novak, who would look great on a team with Noah and Rose.

        Boozer+16+19 for TH+Novak+Salmons+20 I think is a better deal for Chicago as they get 2 serviceable players instead of 1. We wont miss Novak either.

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        • #19
          mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
          My post makes a few assumptions and takes a number of TL/MU statements at face value:

          1) Masai is going to build with the core currently in place for another year or two: KL, DD, AJ, TR, JV, PP, GV;
          2) Lowry will be resigned as per TL comments;
          3) Masai intends to build through the draft.


          All these threads going up on getting a lottery pick neglects the Raptors have to send away numerous assets. That goes 100% against everything the front office and top brass have been preaching. I believe Masai when he says the Raptors won't be stuck in no man's land. What the Raptors are currently doing, in my opinion, is accumulating assets.

          I expect draft night to see the Raptors get another draft pick on draft night via trade. This year's draft is very deep. There are a number of talented players in the 2nd half of the 1st round (#15-30). To get anything #1-14, the Raptors are going to have to give up pieces of their core. Sending out 2 or 3 assets to return 1, and an unproven one at that, goes against the idea of asset accumulation.

          The following are the types of trades I think make much more sense than #1 or #8 or anything in the lottery:


          #16 - Chicago

          Boozer, #16, #19 for Salmons, Hansbrough, Buycks, Stone, #20

          Bulls waive all 4 players and save about $16M off their cap and books.


          #21 and/or #29 - OKC

          Perkins, #21 and/or #29 for Salmons and (maybe) #20


          #22 - Memphis*

          Prince and #22 for Salmons


          #25 - Houston*

          Lin and/or Asik, #25 for Salmons and/or Hansbrough, Buycks, Stone, #37


          #26 - Miami*

          #26 for #37


          #28 - LA Clippers*

          Dudley and #28 for Gay TPE


          #30 - San Antonio

          Bahahahaha, the Spurs don't trade picks, silly!


          * All sniffing luxury tax.


          Personally, I would be ecstatic if the Raptors can pull off the above Bulls trade, the Clippers trade, and/or the Heat trade. Bring in 2 first round picks for next year and stash one/two more in Europe. It is all about ASSET ACCUMULATION. When the time is right, Masai has a cupboard full of assets to improve by trade and with a roster full of cheap rookie contract talent he also has the ability to improve with cap space deals (unbalanced trades or free agent signing).



          In summary, ASSET ACCUMULATION is the name of the game right now. Any trade that sends out more assets than it brings in is a no-no. Patience.
          Not a big fan of the Boozer trade. Just really don't want anything to do with him.

          The team I'd look into is OKC. Yeah, Perkins is much more useless than Boozer, but IMO, that makes the rotation easier to keep clear. Amir and 2Pat keep platooning the PF spot, while Perkins and Hayes back up JV at C. Clear roles and no likelihood that Casey starts overplaying his vets to the detriment of youth (with Boozer, I can see that as a risk).

          For OKC, I also think you may not need to trade #20. They are hovering pretty high in terms of salary cap for a team that doesn't want to pay tax. Salmons for Perkins helps big time with that, and if they still want a draft asset, I say go after #29 by flipping #37. I can see them not wanting to add 2 1st round picks because of guaranteed money, but an early 2nd rounder helps with that as they can still target a prospect who will come cheaper for them.

          Not sure I like the Memphis option. Prince is pretty close to the end, although I suppose he fills a bigger need than Salmons. I wouldn't be upset if it happens, preferring him to either deals involving Chicago or Houston where I don't like the players coming back and how they can muddle rotations.

          Then I see Houston as a possibility, but want nothing to do with Lin or Asik. Lin because of who he is as a player. Asik because if he was unhappy backing up Howard, why would he be ok with backing up a younger C in JV? Don't want to mess with chemistry. But it does make sense in terms of helping them clear money off the books.

          Don't know why Miami would care too much about the luxury tax, but I suppose the deal is possible.

          Clippers are another interesting target. They may not care that much about the luxury tax, but still might want to avoid adding a rookie contract as well as clearing Dudley off since he's been a disappointment for them. And in contender mode, probably don't care about adding a draft pick this year.

          I'd also add the following teams because of them having multiple picks as possible partners...Utah (23), Charlotte (24), PHX (27)....Though it's hard to think of what kind of trade would work with each since they have no financial issues and are in fairly flexible positions. But they could be wild cards who may look for trades. Though for Utah I can't imagine why they'd trade it.

          It's hard to believe Phoenix will use all their picks and they could be very active this offseason. Maybe they'd move Frye for Salmons to shave money off their books if they plan on going free agent hunting? Maybe they just want to move down from 27 so that they don't have to take on 3 1st round scaled deals?

          Charlotte may not want to add 2 1st round picks either as they try to build on a playoff season. But what would they want for #24? They may need PF insurance (McRoberts could walk), but does Hansbrough really fit what they're doing? Maybe Tyler + #37 for Haywood + #24? Is that deal worth it for Charlotte?

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          • #20
            mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
            In summary, ASSET ACCUMULATION is the name of the game right now. Any trade that sends out more assets than it brings in is a no-no. Patience.
            How about lack of action ? Is that a No-No as well ?
            How about letting Novak and Hayes contracts just expire and not doing anything with fields or Salmon's expiring ?

            With the current Core : DD, KL,TR,AJ,PP,JV,GV and a 20th pick from this draft, we are destine to be STUCK in the middle. Now, that is OK and COMPLETELY acceptable if we are in the "ASSET ACCUMULATION" mode ...

            "ASSET ACCUMULATION" should have STARTED from last Feb and before the TRADE DEADLINE. That was a lost opportunity.
            Now, this draft is a great opportunity for MU to show us his magic and start the "ASSET ACCUMULATION".

            Question is: if we don't make any moves in this draft in terms of "ASSET ACCUMULATION" , would that be considered a failure on parts of this management and MU ?

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            • #21
              Why wouldn't the Bulls and Thunder just amnesty Boozer and Perkins respectively instead of giving up assets to be rid of them?

              Like you said as well about stashing players in Europe, I think that'd be more likely for teams around the luxury tax than actively trading down in the draft. Also, everyone knows rookie contracts are the best deals in the NBA so if teams don't do that I could see a team like the Heat definitely not trading down just for salary purposes, especially since they have a lot of veterans coming off the books this year and have done pretty well on a couple of late first round picks in the last few years (Chalmers and Cole).

              Also I am staying well clear of Boozer no matter what. If Thibs can't help him defensively no one can.

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              • #22
                mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                In summary, ASSET ACCUMULATION is the name of the game right now. Any trade that sends out more assets than it brings in is a no-no. Patience.
                There is no such thing as a free lunch. I don't think anyone is advocating intentionally losing a trade. But in order to obtain quality assets you need to surrender quality assets.

                What underscores all the talk about getting high pick (top 10) is a philosophical debate about how best to build a team.

                If you think we can build a contender with the core as it stands, some smart drafting with 15th-30th picks, and shrewd free agent signings, the "asset accumulation" model is fine. I do think we should also consider "asset depreciation" as time expires and contracts run out (eg. Lowry, and Demar only has two years left), but that's a minor quibble. (Also a minor quibble is that "patience" and "accumulation" are seemingly unassailable in terms of criticism because it implies that anyone who disagrees is impatient and averse to smart gm'ing.)

                But if you think we need to raise the collective ceiling of the team, then a high draft pick is one way you can do it. If it takes surrendering part of this core, then that's what you have to do.

                Look at Denver. Do you think they have any hope of seriously competing going forward? I don't.

                I think the only way asset accumulation works is if you can parlay the assets into superstars. Daryl Morey did this brilliantly. That's why I think we should go hard after Kevin Love. And if that doesn't work, we should go hard after a high pick. I just don't see any team other than the Pistons in the last thirty years that didn't have a superstar to lead them to a title.

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                • #23
                  I'm not sure Chicago pulls the trigger on that trade unless they're absolutely convinced they can land 'Melo in free agency with their newfound cap space. If they think he's staying in New York then they're probably better off with their multiple, higher first round picks and trying to parlay them into a package that can get them in the Kevin Love discussions. Chicago also still has their amnesty provision, which despite not meshing with their historically frugal nature, could allow them to clear enough cap room to go after a big fish in free agency by dumping Boozer, AND they get to keep their two first round picks to use themselves or in separate trades to add more pieces around Noah/Rose/Butler/Free Agent X.

                  I've heard that the Rockets still expect to get a first round pick for Asik, not give one away to rid themselves of his contract. Whether that changes if there's little market for him and they want to get in the Melo sweepstakes themselves and need the cap room in a hurry.. who knows. It doesn't strike me as a Morey type deal though.

                  I like the Clippers deal, and I think it's conceivable. Dudley had a miserable season in LA but I've always liked the guy, and I think that Casey could drag a decent season out of him.

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                  • #24
                    ReubenJRD wrote: View Post

                    I'm not sure I like the idea of three rookies again. The team would get even younger, and even less experienced. Two at most in my opinion, because these first-rounders are going to warrant development.

                    I'd like to see a good mix of a young player(s), along with veterans like a Vince Carter (wink, wink, nudge, nudge).
                    Me neither.

                    Stash a player in Europe.

                    There are a couple of guys who aren't guaranteed to come over right away such as Saric and Porzingis.

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                    • #25
                      Raptorsnz wrote: View Post
                      Why wouldn't the Bulls and Thunder just amnesty Boozer and Perkins respectively instead of giving up assets to be rid of them?

                      Like you said as well about stashing players in Europe, I think that'd be more likely for teams around the luxury tax than actively trading down in the draft. Also, everyone knows rookie contracts are the best deals in the NBA so if teams don't do that I could see a team like the Heat definitely not trading down just for salary purposes, especially since they have a lot of veterans coming off the books this year and have done pretty well on a couple of late first round picks in the last few years (Chalmers and Cole).

                      Also I am staying well clear of Boozer no matter what. If Thibs can't help him defensively no one can.
                      The Bulls and Thunder still have to pay the guys to leave, then they have to pay other guys to replace them. Both teams are luxury tax avoiders at all costs. Plus the Bulls are trying to reload through free agency and Mirotic no longer qualifies for the rookie contract. They need cap space (or exception) to sign him to anything comparable to what he can make in Europe (and even then he will likely make more there).

                      But here's the thing: You continue to hear rumbles that Bulls chairman Jerry Reinsdorf is adamantly against the idea of setting Boozer free via amnesty, even though the 32-year-old is finally poised to enter the final year of his contract, valued in 2014-15 at $16.8 million.

                      Sources briefed on Chicago's thinking say the Bulls are going to do everything they can to try to find a trading partner for Boozer before seriously considering the amnesty option.

                      Bear in mind that Chicago essentially has until July 15 to craft a deal that finds a new home for Boozer after a season in which he lost much of his fourth-quarter run to Taj Gibson. The NBA's amnesty window this summer runs through July 10-16.

                      http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-...-using-amnesty
                      I'm not a fan of Boozer either but he is done in Europe and he is a very undesirable contract. His production is in serious decline and his advanced stats are horrendous.
                      Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat May 24, 2014, 05:56 PM.

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                      • #26
                        mcHAPPY wrote: View Post

                        #21 and/or #29 - OKC

                        Perkins, #21 and/or #29 for Salmons and (maybe) #20


                        #22 - Memphis*

                        Prince and #22 for Salmons
                        Don't think either of these happen. OKC trade only goes through if Brooks doesn't return as coach. He seems to have some type of unnatural infatuation with Perk, citing leadership, toughness, blah blah blah as reasons to keep him starting. Also, I don't see any use for Salmons if Thunder are willing to keep betting on Lamb's progress. Butler has done well in the 20-odd games he's played for them; he may also be signed back at vet. minimum.

                        With Memphis, Salmons and Prince are essentially the same player. Mediocre-to-good defense, no outside shot, both are 34. Grizz are desperate for a starting-caliber 3, and they may be able to land one with their pick.
                        Twitter - @thekid_it

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                        • #27
                          Small Steps and accountability: These are keys. If we are building via draft and want to take the patient path, then this draft is the time to do so. If MU does not make any move , then it is a failure on his side and a missed opportunity.

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                          • #28
                            Scraptor wrote: View Post
                            There is no such thing as a free lunch. I don't think anyone is advocating intentionally losing a trade. But in order to obtain quality assets you need to surrender quality assets.

                            What underscores all the talk about getting high pick (top 10) is a philosophical debate about how best to build a team.

                            If you think we can build a contender with the core as it stands, some smart drafting with 15th-30th picks, and shrewd free agent signings, the "asset accumulation" model is fine. I do think we should also consider "asset depreciation" as time expires and contracts run out (eg. Lowry, and Demar only has two years left), but that's a minor quibble. (Also a minor quibble is that "patience" and "accumulation" are seemingly unassailable in terms of criticism because it implies that anyone who disagrees is impatient and averse to smart gm'ing.)

                            But if you think we need to raise the collective ceiling of the team, then a high draft pick is one way you can do it. If it takes surrendering part of this core, then that's what you have to do.

                            Look at Denver. Do you think they have any hope of seriously competing going forward? I don't.

                            I think the only way asset accumulation works is if you can parlay the assets into superstars. Daryl Morey did this brilliantly. That's why I think we should go hard after Kevin Love. And if that doesn't work, we should go hard after a high pick. I just don't see any team other than the Pistons in the last thirty years that didn't have a superstar to lead them to a title.
                            Circumstance often fits in to trades.

                            Look at what Miami did in 2010 in anticipation of signing LBJ and Bosh:

                            Miami receives: 32nd pick (Dexter Pittman) in 2010 Draft
                            Oklahoma City receives: Daequan Cook and the No. 18 pick (Eric Bledsoe) in 2010 Draft
                            Or when Masai fleeced Dallas in anticipation of their free agent dreams:

                            The Dallas Mavericks traded Spanish swingmen Rudy Fernandez and Corey Brewer to the Denver Nuggets for a 2016 second round pick that originally belonged to Memphis.
                            Those are some pretty uneven trades. In Miami's case it worked out for them despite 'losing' the trade; Dallas lost on both fronts.


                            Personally, if Raps could get top 10 picks for Lowry and DD, I'd go for it. But as I said in OP, I'm taking the 'continuity' comments at face value.


                            You can't parlay assets in to a superstar without the assets. I don't think Masai is going to necessarily go the "Houston" route or "Indiana" route. I think he is going to do what gives him the most options. Having draft picks, rookie contracts, cap space, and players on value contracts is going to give him the most options and opportunities.
                            Last edited by mcHAPPY; Sat May 24, 2014, 05:51 PM.

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                            • #29
                              isaacthompson wrote: View Post
                              Don't think either of these happen. OKC trade only goes through if Brooks doesn't return as coach. He seems to have some type of unnatural infatuation with Perk, citing leadership, toughness, blah blah blah as reasons to keep him starting. Also, I don't see any use for Salmons if Thunder are willing to keep betting on Lamb's progress. Butler has done well in the 20-odd games he's played for them; he may also be signed back at vet. minimum.

                              With Memphis, Salmons and Prince are essentially the same player. Mediocre-to-good defense, no outside shot, both are 34. Grizz are desperate for a starting-caliber 3, and they may be able to land one with their pick.
                              Keeping Salmons is not going to happen with any trade. He is a $7M contract only guaranteed for $1M next season. Both Memphis and OKC waive him in my opinion should any of these hypothetical trades even come to fruition.

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                              • #30
                                Raptorsnz wrote: View Post
                                Why wouldn't the Bulls and Thunder just amnesty Boozer and Perkins respectively instead of giving up assets to be rid of them?

                                Like you said as well about stashing players in Europe, I think that'd be more likely for teams around the luxury tax than actively trading down in the draft. Also, everyone knows rookie contracts are the best deals in the NBA so if teams don't do that I could see a team like the Heat definitely not trading down just for salary purposes, especially since they have a lot of veterans coming off the books this year and have done pretty well on a couple of late first round picks in the last few years (Chalmers and Cole).

                                Also I am staying well clear of Boozer no matter what. If Thibs can't help him defensively no one can.
                                Not sure if this was already said, but if they amnesty Boozer they still have to pay the 16 or 17M still left on his contract. If they trade for unguaranteed deals like Salmons and expirings, that's less money that needs to be paid. Plus they still have their amnesty clause if they need it later.

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