Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 79

Thread: Learning from the Pacers mistakes

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Waterloo
    Posts
    594
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I have read many times that the Spurs look for guys that have specific skill sets and attitudes that will fit within their team and system. That is why they are so successful. They find character guys who are skilled. And the system allows them to use their skill set. And then, after playing with each other for 2-3 years, those guys start to look REALLY good.

    The Raptors don't have to go for wholesale changes. They do need and offensive/defensive system that everybody learns, and that the players have the skills to work within. When you have well run offensive and defensive systems, you have room for Matt Bonner and Marco Bellinelli, and Corey Joseph and Austin Daye. It's been six years since Boris Diaw averaged over 10 pts a game. You go down the list of the Spurs, and you aren't overwhelmed by individual talents outside of the top 4. Raps need to add talent. More importantly they need to play up to their ability...THAT is what the Spurs do.
    Thing is, we don't have an exceptional top couple guys headed by a really, really, REALLY exceptional guy in Duncan. It's easy to build that system when you have a top-15 player on the team for like 20 years.
    @Boymusic66

  2. Like Scraptor liked this post
  3. #42
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    56
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Seems as if lots of posts are how we should emulate the Spurs.

    I don't think we have the parts to emulate the Spurs, nor do we have the coach.

    We saw in this year's playoffs that when the D gets ramped up we aren't a ball-movement team. It'd be foolish to try to mimic a playing style without the correct talent, just as it would be dumb to drive your porche in an off-road race.

  4. #43
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    2,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Stevo wrote: View Post
    Seems as if lots of posts are how we should emulate the Spurs.

    I don't think we have the parts to emulate the Spurs, nor do we have the coach.

    We saw in this year's playoffs that when the D gets ramped up we aren't a ball-movement team. It'd be foolish to try to mimic a playing style without the correct talent, just as it would be dumb to drive your porche in an off-road race.
    The spurs didn't become so good at ball movement over night. They've been playing together for years and years. They know each others tendencies and trust each other fully

  5. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star Raptorsnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    The spurs didn't become so good at ball movement over night. They've been playing together for years and years. They know each others tendencies and trust each other fully
    Exactly, if it was easy to become the Spurs then everyone would. Even the small details of their organisation are hard to replicate, such as an owner that doesn't interfere and near-equal input on personal decisions by coach and GM. Then of course you have to find an all-time great coach and top 10 player ever to build around...

  6. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star Scraptor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    1,314
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Puffer wrote: View Post
    I have read many times that the Spurs look for guys that have specific skill sets and attitudes that will fit within their team and system. That is why they are so successful. They find character guys who are skilled. And the system allows them to use their skill set. And then, after playing with each other for 2-3 years, those guys start to look REALLY good.

    The Raptors don't have to go for wholesale changes. They do need and offensive/defensive system that everybody learns, and that the players have the skills to work within. When you have well run offensive and defensive systems, you have room for Matt Bonner and Marco Bellinelli, and Corey Joseph and Austin Daye. It's been six years since Boris Diaw averaged over 10 pts a game. You go down the list of the Spurs, and you aren't overwhelmed by individual talents outside of the top 4. Raps need to add talent. More importantly they need to play up to their ability...THAT is what the Spurs do.
    I agree with you 100% about seeking out very specific skillsets, but the underlying debate lies in your mention of the Spurs top 4.

    The foundation comes first. Duncan, Ginobili, Parker, and now Leonard. Then you can rely on role players exceeding their previous limits.

    I think we definitely have one championship foundational player in Lowry and possibly another in Val. But I think we need at least one more major star before we can settle back on becoming a system team.

    Look at the Bulls, for example. Great system, Thibs is a genius. Got a ton out of Augustin during the regular season. But when the postseason hits you need star power.

  7. #46
    Raptors Republic Rookie
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    56
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    The spurs didn't become so good at ball movement over night. They've been playing together for years and years. They know each others tendencies and trust each other fully
    I agree with this post.

    I'm skeptical however, of our players being able to learn this. Lowry, as much as I believe he was our MVP this year, does not strike me as a ball-movement guy. He needs to feed off his dribble to be effective, and rides his adrenaline too much to stick to a systematic approach of playing ball. I hope that's just my opinion, but guys like Duncan, Ginobli, Parker were slowly groomed in to accepting Pop's ball-movement system when they became clear grizzled veterans without the ability to compete based off of pure natural athleticism with the young stars of today.

    That's still years away for guys like Lowry, DD, and so on.

  8. Like stooley liked this post
  9. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    RaptorLand
    Posts
    478
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
    Well written post, lots of good ideas and I really hate myself for this but there were too many spelling mistakes in the OP for me to be able to concentrate lol. Anyone else?
    Sorry, french is my first language haha, doing my best. In fact if you see any blatant mistakes, do not hesitate to report them to me.

    ____

    My point is not that we need to emulate the Spurs playing style, i didn't mention them once in the initial post.

    But they sure are the best managed team. Every player they bring in as a specific role and has been recruited for a purpose.

    Also I do not know where the obsession over "talent" came from, especially if you refer to the spurs. Referring to Duncan is great, however he is not a top 20 player in the league anymore. Also, his supporting cast is loaded with undrafted/unwanted players who contribute in some way or another because they FIT in the system.

    Parker/Ginobli weren't drafted as stars, but they became that by internal growth, continuity and team system/culture. They more than likely wouldn't have become what they are now if they were traded for assets.
    Myself (March 2014):
    The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

  10. Like Puffer liked this post
  11. #48
    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    RaptorLand
    Posts
    478
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    ALso regarding the draft and talent vs chemistry, check out this quote:

    Tolzman confirmed that the Raptors are looking at fit as much as talent. They don’t want the players they bring into training camp to mess up the team’s chemistry.

    “Just seeing what kind of people they are,” Tolzman said. “It’s a huge part because you want to see how they are going to fit with the chemistry of our team right now. I think that was one of the biggest positives of our team was our chemistry and so one of the last things we would ever want to do is mess that up.”
    Myself (March 2014):
    The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

  12. #49
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,610
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    ALso regarding the draft and talent vs chemistry, check out this quote:

    Tolzman confirmed that the Raptors are looking at fit as much as talent. They don’t want the players they bring into training camp to mess up the team’s chemistry.

    “Just seeing what kind of people they are,” Tolzman said. “It’s a huge part because you want to see how they are going to fit with the chemistry of our team right now. I think that was one of the biggest positives of our team was our chemistry and so one of the last things we would ever want to do is mess that up.”
    As one of the posters in this thread that had more of a negative response to the OP, I would summarize my opinion like this:

    Talent + Chemistry = Ideal (duh)

    Talent alone = 2nd choice, since chemistry can be worked on (no knuckleheads, please)

    Chemistry alone = 3rd choice, since losing together is still losing


    I just didn't like how the OP and its supporters seemed to give too much weight to the impact of chemistry, to the point that it seemed valued even beyond talent. I never questioned the importance of chemistry/fit/balance/knowing your role, but only if the team (recognizing that sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts) is talented enough to be (or become) legitimately competitive for an NBA championship.

    I don't think the current Raptors roster is that talented, so improving the overall talent should still be MU's top priority. Obviously incorporating internal growth, chemistry, fit, balance and clearly defined (and accepted) roles, should go hand-in-hand with talent acquisition and development. It was just the idea that the current roster should be left as is, simply because of the positive chemistry they have (despite being a mid-tier team at best), that I failed to understand or agree with.

  13. Like Bendit liked this post
  14. #50
    Raptors Republic Starter special1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Toronto, ON
    Posts
    762
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    As one of the posters in this thread that had more of a negative response to the OP, I would summarize my opinion like this:

    Talent + Chemistry = Ideal (duh)

    Talent alone = 2nd choice, since chemistry can be worked on (no knuckleheads, please)

    Chemistry alone = 3rd choice, since losing together is still losing


    I just didn't like how the OP and its supporters seemed to give too much weight to the impact of chemistry, to the point that it seemed valued even beyond talent. I never questioned the importance of chemistry/fit/balance/knowing your role, but only if the team (recognizing that sometimes the whole is greater than the sum of its parts) is talented enough to be (or become) legitimately competitive for an NBA championship.

    I don't think the current Raptors roster is that talented, so improving the overall talent should still be MU's top priority. Obviously incorporating internal growth, chemistry, fit, balance and clearly defined (and accepted) roles, should go hand-in-hand with talent acquisition and development. It was just the idea that the current roster should be left as is, simply because of the positive chemistry they have (despite being a mid-tier team at best), that I failed to understand or agree with.
    Everyone in the NBA has "talent." Obviously some are more talented than others (which you usually see earlier in drafts as they get drafted earlier because of their talent/potential/upside). NOBODY is saying to leave the team as is. I think we all accept that there must be some changes (for example Salmons/Byucks/Stone/Hayes/Novak could all be replaced and no one would really care NOR do i think it would destroy the team chemistry).

    I think the discussion was reflecting on what happened to the Pacers (same team went from #1 contender to struggling to hold on to the top spot and then struggling to defeat the #8th seed). They won 6 out of their final 15 regular season games. Their chemistry obviously took a big hit and they reportedly had locker room issues after the trade with Philadelphia.

    I personally think your 3rd choice above is just ridiculous as we know that most if not everyone in the NBA has talent. I don't think a 3rd choice actually really exists. So therefore i would pick number one. Talent + Chemistry/Fit is VERY important to successful teams. I actually think this Raptors team has a lot of talent (Lowry, Demar, TRoss, JV, Amir, GV, Patterson are all talented players in my opinion).....but obviously that's just my opinion and your entitled to yours.

    Would i like to add to the talent of this team? (YES). Should we bring in talent that could mess with the current team chemistry/identity? (NO). I think most posters may agree or disagree, but would understand the logic.
    Last edited by special1; Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 05:00 PM.

  15. #51
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    4,610
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Everyone in the NBA has "talent." Obviously some are more talented than others (which you usually see earlier in drafts as they get drafted earlier because of their talent/potential/upside). NOBODY is saying to leave the team as is. I think we all accept that there must be some changes (for example Salmons/Byucks/Stone/Hayes/Novak could all be replaced and no one would really care NOR do i think it would destroy the team chemistry).

    I think the discussion was reflecting on what happened to the Pacers (same team went from #1 contender to struggling to hold on to the top spot and then struggling to defeat the #8th seed). They won 6 out of their final 15 regular season games. Their chemistry obviously took a big hit and they reportedly had locker room issues after the trade with Philadelphia.

    I personally think your 3rd choice above is just ridiculous as we know that most if not everyone in the NBA has talent. I don't think a 3rd choice actually really exists. So therefore i would pick number one. Talent + Chemistry/Fit is VERY important to successful teams. I actually think this Raptors team has a lot of talent (Lowry, Demar, TRoss, JV, Amir, GV, Patterson are all talented players in my opinion).....but obviously that's just my opinion and your entitled to yours.

    Would i like to add to the talent of this team? (YES). Should we bring in talent that could mess with the current team chemistry/identity? (NO). I think most posters may agree or disagree, but would understand the logic.
    Well the OP was suggesting the core be left intact, which I took to mean the primary 10 rotation players (at least the main 7-8). I think that would be a terrible mistake. Obviously the current core players have talent, but I don't believe they are talented enough to be (or become) more than a 2nd round playoff team, which is why I would argue that the overall talent level of the core roster needs to be upgraded.

    Everybody seems to be in agreement that chemistry is an integral part of successful team building.

    I suppose there are 2 main points of disagreement:
    1. the current Raptors core is or could become (through organic growth only) a legitimate title contender
    2. the failure of the Pacers was entirely a result of chemistry being negatively impacted, due primarily to the Granger trade

    If you agree with either of those 2 points, then we absolutely disagree. Disagreement is fine, and lots of discussion/debate could be had about each point, but neither issue really has anything to do with 'talent VS chemistry' (which was the premise of the OP).
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jun 5th, 2014 at 05:15 PM.

  16. #52
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    2,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    I think you get the most talented player that fits the team culture with our top pick.

    That's how the Spurs have rolled and they're the most successful team in the past 17 years.

  17. Like OptimalOptimist, Puffer liked this post
  18. #53
    Raptors Republic Starter TSF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Waterloo
    Posts
    594
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I think you get the most talented player that fits the team culture with our top pick.

    That's how the Spurs have rolled and they're the most successful team in the past 17 years.
    Well, that and EXCEPTIONAL player development. Kawhi didn't have a good shot when he came in. Danny Green met with one of their assistant coaches during summer league for 3 days/5 workouts. Popovich met with Richard Jefferson in the off-season when he came to the spurs to work out how his game could work in SA. George Hill's D and 3-point shooting were improve with their staff. Every player on the spurs roster has something to credit to that development help.
    @Boymusic66

  19. #54
    Raptors Republic All-Star e_wheazhy_'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    1,188
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Well the OP was suggesting the core be left intact, which I took to mean the primary 10 rotation players (at least the main 7-8). I think that would be a terrible mistake. Obviously the current core players have talent, but I don't believe they are talented enough to be (or become) more than a 2nd round playoff team, which is why I would argue that the overall talent level of the core roster needs to be upgraded.

    Everybody seems to be in agreement that chemistry is an integral part of successful team building.

    I suppose there are 2 main points of disagreement:
    1. the current Raptors core is or could become (through organic growth only) a legitimate title contender
    2. the failure of the Pacers was entirely a result of chemistry being negatively impacted, due primarily to the Granger trade

    If you agree with either of those 2 points, then we absolutely disagree. Disagreement is fine, and lots of discussion/debate could be had about each point, but neither issue really has anything to do with 'talent VS chemistry' (which was the premise of the OP).
    I agree with the OP though that we should keep the core intact (that being DD, Ross, JV, Kyle, PPat, Amir, Greivis) . The beauty of this raps team and the reason a lot of us have for being optimistic is that we have flotsam on the current roster on relatively bloated contracts (Novak, Landry, salmons, Chucky) and so once we get rid of them we have cap space to add some pretty good players. It's not like in the Colangelo era where the core had us capped out so much that keeping it intact would cripple us financially. This core can be kept intact while still chasing a max player! Who'd have ever thunk that?

    Chemistry is definitely a big part of how well a team performs. If guys are in tune, not only will they play harder for each other, they'll move more, they'll know where each other is at all times (see the spurs ball movement as an example) and will be used to each other's cuts and know how to get the ball to the open man. Look at the spurs and pacers as (easy) examples of how chemistry impacts a team's performance, positively and negatively, respectively.


    It doesn't necessarily mean it'll happen, but imagine this core with Love, or Durant (or both, which Matt Devlin will call Y2Kevin). I want to see these guys (DD, Kyle, Amir, etc.) win, and I want to see them win in Toronto.
    A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

  20. Like stooley liked this post
  21. #55
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    2,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    Well, that and EXCEPTIONAL player development. Kawhi didn't have a good shot when he came in. Danny Green met with one of their assistant coaches during summer league for 3 days/5 workouts. Popovich met with Richard Jefferson in the off-season when he came to the spurs to work out how his game could work in SA. George Hill's D and 3-point shooting were improve with their staff. Every player on the spurs roster has something to credit to that development help.
    Agreed.

    But there's also an element in there of picking the right players that are humble, willing to work and mouldable (ie Spurs guys).

  22. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Kitchener "Sketchener"
    Posts
    1,841
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Agreed.

    But there's also an element in there of picking the right players that are humble, willing to work and mouldable (ie Spurs guys).
    Ie demar derozan
    In Swag we Trust

    -Nick Young

  23. Like stooley liked this post
  24. #57
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    2,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    Ie demar derozan
    Yep.

  25. #58
    Raptors Republic All-Star Raptorsnz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,553
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    Well, that and EXCEPTIONAL player development. Kawhi didn't have a good shot when he came in. Danny Green met with one of their assistant coaches during summer league for 3 days/5 workouts. Popovich met with Richard Jefferson in the off-season when he came to the spurs to work out how his game could work in SA. George Hill's D and 3-point shooting were improve with their staff. Every player on the spurs roster has something to credit to that development help.
    Good article on their shooting coach in case you haven't seen it:

    http://grantland.com/features/the-shot-doctor/

  26. #59
    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    3,423
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
    I agree with the OP though that we should keep the core intact (that being DD, Ross, JV, Kyle, PPat, Amir, Greivis) . The beauty of this raps team and the reason a lot of us have for being optimistic is that we have flotsam on the current roster on relatively bloated contracts (Novak, Landry, salmons, Chucky) and so once we get rid of them we have cap space to add some pretty good players. It's not like in the Colangelo era where the core had us capped out so much that keeping it intact would cripple us financially. This core can be kept intact while still chasing a max player! Who'd have ever thunk that?

    Chemistry is definitely a big part of how well a team performs. If guys are in tune, not only will they play harder for each other, they'll move more, they'll know where each other is at all times (see the spurs ball movement as an example) and will be used to each other's cuts and know how to get the ball to the open man. Look at the spurs and pacers as (easy) examples of how chemistry impacts a team's performance, positively and negatively, respectively.


    It doesn't necessarily mean it'll happen, but imagine this core with Love, or Durant (or both, which Matt Devlin will call Y2Kevin). I want to see these guys (DD, Kyle, Amir, etc.) win, and I want to see them win in Toronto.
    Where was the chemistry during the playoffs when we actually needed it? Random hero ball was pretty much the only reason we won 3 games against the nets. This core definitely isn't talented enough to make a serious splash.

  27. #60
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    2,112
    Post Thanks / Like

    Default

    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    Where was the chemistry during the playoffs when we actually needed it? Random hero ball was pretty much the only reason we won 3 games against the nets. This core definitely isn't talented enough to make a serious splash.
    don't think I agree at all. a starting lineup that's played zero playoff minutes and who's average age is like 24 didn't play well, but still managed to push a super vet lineup to seven.

    that's pretty good in my books

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •