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Thread: Learning from the Pacers mistakes

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    Raptors Republic All-Star e_wheazhy_'s Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    Where was the chemistry during the playoffs when we actually needed it? Random hero ball was pretty much the only reason we won 3 games against the nets. This core definitely isn't talented enough to make a serious splash.
    That's where the experience comes in. With some more experience and that "killer" mentality we definitely will make a serious splash.

    And are you telling me that adding a max (or 2 max) contract players wouldn't push this team further?
    A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    don't think I agree at all. a starting lineup that's played zero playoff minutes and who's average age is like 24 didn't play well, but still managed to push a super vet lineup to seven.

    that's pretty good in my books
    pretty good? this 'super vet lineup' only won a single game vs the heat before they got knocked out in the second round. the nets weren't that good. we were just really really bad in the playoffs.

    Quote e_wheazhy_ wrote: View Post
    That's where the experience comes in. With some more experience and that "killer" mentality we definitely will make a serious splash.

    And are you telling me that adding a max (or 2 max) contract players wouldn't push this team further?
    adding 2 max contract players would most likely push ANY team further. quantifying experience is a hard thing. playoffs or not, DD already said its just basketball, not rocket science. so according to him, 'experience' doesn't matter that much. of course it could just be talking points due to the situation (young raptors vs old nets) but by the time this team gets more 'experience' (how much do we need? 1 more playoff berth? 2? 3?), most of our core players will probably be gone.
    Last edited by iblastoff; Sat Jun 7th, 2014 at 11:34 AM.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    pretty good? this 'super vet lineup' only won a single game vs the heat before they got knocked out in the second round. the nets weren't that good. we were just really really bad in the playoffs.



    adding 2 max contract players would most likely push ANY team further. quantifying experience is a hard thing. playoffs or not, DD already said its just basketball, not rocket science. so according to him, 'experience' doesn't matter that much. of course it could just be talking points due to the situation (young raptors vs old nets) but by the time this team gets more 'experience' (how much do we need? 1 more playoff berth? 2? 3?), most of our core players will probably be gone.


    Dang since when have you become so negative? LOL. Anytime I said anything negative about the team all year and that they will probably lose to Brooklyn you got at me like there was no tomorrow. It's cool I'm just kind of shocked ahahaha

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote GLF wrote: View Post
    Dang since when have you become so negative? LOL. Anytime I said anything negative about the team all year and that they will probably lose to Brooklyn you got at me like there was no tomorrow. It's cool I'm just kind of shocked ahahaha
    i don't think i've ever been SUPER positive or anything. when the raptors were winning this past season, i think a lot of people including me just let go of their usual critiques and wanted to enjoy some decent toronto basketball for once. now that we've had our fun with a shitty 1st round exit playing not-so-great playoff ball against some old useless fucks who are probably going to retire soon, its back to reality.

    i might have had a different outlook if we actually played well in the playoffs (ie the ball movement we all saw during the regular season), but no, it was just a bunch of lucky iso play and relying on the nets to miss a ton of open shots. maybe that fault lays on our coaching but who knows.

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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    i don't think i've ever been SUPER positive or anything. when the raptors were winning this past season, i think a lot of people including me just let go of their usual critiques and wanted to enjoy some decent toronto basketball for once. now that we've had our fun with a shitty 1st round exit playing not-so-great playoff ball against some old useless fucks who are probably going to retire soon, its back to reality.

    i might have had a different outlook if we actually played well in the playoffs (ie the ball movement we all saw during the regular season), but no, it was just a bunch of lucky iso play and relying on the nets to miss a ton of open shots. maybe that fault lays on our coaching but who knows.
    I hear you. Well I wasn't that shocked that we played the way we did. I knew guys would play nervous and foolish for most of that series. But to be positive, a lot of guys stats wise either stayed the same or improved in most categories. We were literally a shot away from winning the series. If Terrence just shot the ball even close to the way he did in the regular season we would have won that series for sure because every other player pretty much did their jobs when you look at stats. Our defense fell off but that didn't shock me either because it was slowly falling off to end the season. Also I was always worried about Joe. I knew we had no one who could even make it difficult for him to score and I think he was the difference maker. If we had someone who could remotely stop him we would have won that series easily. Trust me, if we met this same team next year and both of our teams had the same exact players I have no doubt it my mind we would win the series. I think the reason for the lack of assists is partly because guys weren't hitting shots and then guys got selfish and felt they had to do it alone. We should have passed it to the bigs more but I also think Brooklyn's traps really affected us and guys just couldn't make the pass. I also think Brooklyn turning us over so much it first couple games scared our guys off from making plays. Everyone was just making the simplest pass or not passing at all. You can tell a lot of our guards were scared almost to pass. I think only good things can come from this experience all our guys got. It will make them hungrier since they lost and could have and should have won and it will also give them a lot to learn from and work on in the offseason. I actually feel more positive looking back than negative. Weird I know LOL.

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    Raptors Republic Starter JordanMariam14's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    pretty good? this 'super vet lineup' only won a single game vs the heat before they got knocked out in the second round. the nets weren't that good. we were just really really bad in the playoffs.



    adding 2 max contract players would most likely push ANY team further. quantifying experience is a hard thing. playoffs or not, DD already said its just basketball, not rocket science. so according to him, 'experience' doesn't matter that much. of course it could just be talking points due to the situation (young raptors vs old nets) but by the time this team gets more 'experience' (how much do we need? 1 more playoff berth? 2? 3?), most of our core players will probably be gone.
    Well.. it was the Heat.. + you could argue that the Nets weren't THAT bad considering the Heat stole a game or two in the last minute.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    This article had me going this morning. I know it's a long read, but i think it is worth it.

    http://hoopshabit.com/2014/06/01/tor...els-promising/

    I think that the parallels between the team are really strong from a players perspective. The coaches also draw the same positive and negative reviews. The me against the world mentality is really embraced as well in the new Raptors culture (as being on the wrong side of the whistles, enduring the "Won't play in Canada" years.) Both teams had winning basketball season based more on team play, hustle, role definition

    Both teams have superstars in the making whom struggles in various areas. (George disappearing offensively, DeRozan being exposed as a 1 on 1 defender.)

    However where things differ, is the mistakes the Pacers made, regarding their identity and culture.

    First move which appears to really hurt them, from an eye test and stats standpoint, was the swap of Hands Bro with Scola.

    Scola, while being a way more skilled player, proved to be a predictable odd fit on the roster, posting the lowest FG% of his entire NBA career and a negative win share on offense.

    Handsbrough in his last Pacers season had a higher PER, higher win shares in offense and defense, better rebounding numbers and was just an overall better player to have in a Pacers' culture.

    I won't write about the Andrew Bynum move because it was just terrible. Even if it was just to prevent the Heat from signing him, it showed one thing to the players: lack of trust of them defeating the Heat with their current roster. From that signing on (sorry no stats there) Roy Hibbert began to be horrible, trying to do too much on offense and not being the shell of himself defensively.

    Finally, the worst move of them all. Swapping a veteran on the decline for Evan Turner. Even though Turner, at this stage of his career, is a better player all around than Granger, the transaction created even more issue. Firsteval, the former all-star that was Granger was also George mentor and his departure coincide with a dramatic drop off in George's and even the whole team play winning 7 out of 17 games. The move also deferred the leadership role to David West. While he's a terrific player, he wasn't an homegrown talent like Granger.

    Chalmers, while speaking of that trade and the Pacers struggles, said that he couldn't picture the Heat parting ways with Haslem because of his heart and soul role.

    WHERE I'M FINALLY GETTING AT.

    Parting ways with veteran on upcoming talent
    Trading Amir Johnson, not picking his option, not resigning him, etc. What effect could that have on that team? He, with DeRozan, are the raptors who have been Raptors for the longest time. He is as important, to not say way more, than Haslem is to Miami and than Granger was to Indy. Loosing him means more than loosing a player, it means loosing an integral part of what makes the Raptors the Raptors, and would lead to a probable identity crisis such as the one the Pacers went through.

    The same needs to be said about DeRozan. Like it or not, he is the raptors face in the same way Granger was. Let's create a scenario in which Lowry stays and DeRozan quits. The leadership would differ to Lowry who, despite being an impact arrival (like West was), didn't grow as a player within the organisation which leads me to think that the team could possibly try to adapt to a new personality leading to a new direction which might not lead to a winning situation.

    Importance of role players
    Role players are about more than just being role players. They define the identity and allow the starters to keep playing their game instead of adjusting to other players. The importance of this cannot be underestimate. The Pacers had to play freaking Rasual Butler (god was he awful) instead of Turner because of this exact reason. Bringing Turner in the game disrupted the entire Indiana offense.

    Playing the Sacramento Raptors with the starters didn't led to any discordance because they all are (yes even Salmons) gritty and hustle player which mesh to the identity and culture.

    Conclusion
    Any further acquisition of players, through the draft or FA, must allow the team to continue playing Raptors basketball and not going away from what they are doing well.
    I agree with a ton of what you are saying but you can't hold everyone's hand these are men.

    The reality of the situation is Lowry probably wants money and MU probably doesn't want to tie himself to a player who may have only preformed this well cause it was a contract year. As much as we like what Lowry has done if there is a option that doesn't tie our hands from improving the overall roster in years to come then I would take that.

    As far as derozan goes can u surround him with players that work well with him and does Amir want to sit on the bench and be a cheerleader?


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    Raptors Republic All-Star 007's Avatar
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    Quote grindhouse wrote: View Post
    I agree with a ton of what you are saying but you can't hold everyone's hand these are men.

    The reality of the situation is Lowry probably wants money and MU probably doesn't want to tie himself to a player who may have only preformed this well cause it was a contract year. As much as we like what Lowry has done if there is a option that doesn't tie our hands from improving the overall roster in years to come then I would take that.

    As far as derozan goes can u surround him with players that work well with him and does Amir want to sit on the bench and be a cheerleader?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Are you saying Amir is not good enough to play on a very good team?
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    Quote 007 wrote: View Post
    Are you saying Amir is not good enough to play on a very good team?
    I am saying his injuries are hurting his game and it may be time to move in another direction at that postion


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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Raptorsnz wrote: View Post
    Good article on their shooting coach in case you haven't seen it:

    http://grantland.com/features/the-shot-doctor/
    I've been harping on this type of investment for a while. Not specifically shooting coaches, but suggesting that the Raptors need to identify and steal away the best developmental coaches they can find, in the league or across the world. To me, here is the most critical part of that whole articles:

    "Furthermore, his presence on the staff allows general manager R.C. Buford and the San Antonio player personnel department to pursue players, like Leonard, who are undervalued because of their shooting woes, knowing that they have the league’s best shot doctor on staff to improve things. It wouldn’t be a surprise if Engelland was involved at some level in the target identification process, recommending players he might be able to fix. That creates a perpetual advantage that goes beyond one player and one shot. Just as Engelland rebuilt Parker’s shot and helped create a team cornerstone, he has built one again in Leonard. After turning Gary Neal into a deadeye shooter from 3, he built Belinelli into San Antonio’s latest spot-up monster on the cheap."

    Whether it's a big man coach, a ball handling coach, whatever...players have skill sets that can be improved with the right type of work. What an advantage, if you are the raptors and you could improve a guys durability, his strength, his vertical, his ball handling, or, as in the case above, his shooting. You could draft differently, trade differently and pick up free agents that others chose to ignore, because you'd know you could help them become the players you need them to be.

    When you look at the scoring and defensive differentials between the top teams and those 5-10 spots lower, tyhere isn't always a huge gap. Toronto just has to move the needle a few percentage points in either or both categories to make a huge difference in the teams future.

    Guys like Chip Engelland and his ilk are worth big, big dollars, because their salary doesn't show against the cap and they let you sign guys who have lower salaries. You grab them for longer term deals and then fix whatever is broken. Then use them yourself, or turn them into highly desirable trade bait.
    Last edited by Puffer; Sat Jun 7th, 2014 at 04:46 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    ...DD already said its just basketball, not rocket science....
    And he quickly wished he had spent some time at NASA. Next year he will say, "It's not ALL rocket science. A lot of the time it's just basketball."

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    Raptors Republic All-Star e_wheazhy_'s Avatar
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    Take in how the highest drafted player on our roster is JV at 5th overall
    A key that opens many locks is a master key, but a lock that gets open by many keys is just a shitty lock

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    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    This article had me going this morning. I know it's a long read, but i think it is worth it.

    http://hoopshabit.com/2014/06/01/tor...els-promising/

    I think that the parallels between the team are really strong from a players perspective. The coaches also draw the same positive and negative reviews. The me against the world mentality is really embraced as well in the new Raptors culture (as being on the wrong side of the whistles, enduring the "Won't play in Canada" years.) Both teams had winning basketball season based more on team play, hustle, role definition

    Both teams have superstars in the making whom struggles in various areas. (George disappearing offensively, DeRozan being exposed as a 1 on 1 defender.)

    However where things differ, is the mistakes the Pacers made, regarding their identity and culture.

    First move which appears to really hurt them, from an eye test and stats standpoint, was the swap of Hands Bro with Scola.

    Scola, while being a way more skilled player, proved to be a predictable odd fit on the roster, posting the lowest FG% of his entire NBA career and a negative win share on offense.

    Handsbrough in his last Pacers season had a higher PER, higher win shares in offense and defense, better rebounding numbers and was just an overall better player to have in a Pacers' culture.

    I won't write about the Andrew Bynum move because it was just terrible. Even if it was just to prevent the Heat from signing him, it showed one thing to the players: lack of trust of them defeating the Heat with their current roster. From that signing on (sorry no stats there) Roy Hibbert began to be horrible, trying to do too much on offense and not being the shell of himself defensively.

    Finally, the worst move of them all. Swapping a veteran on the decline for Evan Turner. Even though Turner, at this stage of his career, is a better player all around than Granger, the transaction created even more issue. Firsteval, the former all-star that was Granger was also George mentor and his departure coincide with a dramatic drop off in George's and even the whole team play winning 7 out of 17 games. The move also deferred the leadership role to David West. While he's a terrific player, he wasn't an homegrown talent like Granger.

    Chalmers, while speaking of that trade and the Pacers struggles, said that he couldn't picture the Heat parting ways with Haslem because of his heart and soul role.

    WHERE I'M FINALLY GETTING AT.

    Parting ways with veteran on upcoming talent
    Trading Amir Johnson, not picking his option, not resigning him, etc. What effect could that have on that team? He, with DeRozan, are the raptors who have been Raptors for the longest time. He is as important, to not say way more, than Haslem is to Miami and than Granger was to Indy. Loosing him means more than loosing a player, it means loosing an integral part of what makes the Raptors the Raptors, and would lead to a probable identity crisis such as the one the Pacers went through.

    The same needs to be said about DeRozan. Like it or not, he is the raptors face in the same way Granger was. Let's create a scenario in which Lowry stays and DeRozan quits. The leadership would differ to Lowry who, despite being an impact arrival (like West was), didn't grow as a player within the organisation which leads me to think that the team could possibly try to adapt to a new personality leading to a new direction which might not lead to a winning situation.

    Importance of role players
    Role players are about more than just being role players. They define the identity and allow the starters to keep playing their game instead of adjusting to other players. The importance of this cannot be underestimate. The Pacers had to play freaking Rasual Butler (god was he awful) instead of Turner because of this exact reason. Bringing Turner in the game disrupted the entire Indiana offense.

    Playing the Sacramento Raptors with the starters didn't led to any discordance because they all are (yes even Salmons) gritty and hustle player which mesh to the identity and culture.

    Conclusion
    Any further acquisition of players, through the draft or FA, must allow the team to continue playing Raptors basketball and not going away from what they are doing well.
    Too much.
    Too much of everything here.

    The only "mistake" the pacers made was losing. Thats it. If you plan to learn from that franchise, if youre toronto, learn from what they do right, year after year.

  15. #74
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    Too much.
    Too much of everything here.

    The only "mistake" the pacers made was losing. Thats it. If you plan to learn from that franchise, if youre toronto, learn from what they do right, year after year.
    Well, why did they lose?

    I think that's what we're trying to get at.

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    I agree on the overriding importance of chemistry (thanks to Masai I am now a believer) ... when I didn't before ... to the extent that I would rank personality at least equal with basketball skills in my evaluation.

    As an aside, I regretted our losing James Johnson, who had great stats again this year for the Grizz (for those who follow such things). I figured 'can't he shape up, does he really need to be dumped over this'?

    Then I saw that he was accused of beating his wife a few days ago. He may be able to play basketball at what WP says is a 'star' level (many will debate that) in limited minutes. And I'd now rather have a hardworking, great attitude Landry Fields (who I desperately hope can rebuild his shot) on the bench rather than JJ, even if WP says Fields is just an average player.

    So I like the whole premise of the OP ... and am interested to see how this team shapes up next year!

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    I think that you are putting too much importance on Amir. Sure, he has been with the Raptors for the longest time, but he is by no means the integral part of the team as you have emphasized. On a good team he would be a solid bench player at best and it does not look as if he will improve from his number from last season. If Majai is smart, he would trade Amir while his stock is at its highest the same way Bryan Colangelo did to Ed Davis when he got Rudy Gay. A player like Amir could certainly grab us a quality veteran to complement Demar, Kyle, and Jonas--whom I believe are the Raptors' core players.

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    Quote slapdoghoops wrote: View Post
    I think that you are putting too much importance on Amir. Sure, he has been with the Raptors for the longest time, but he is by no means the integral part of the team as you have emphasized. On a good team he would be a solid bench player at best and it does not look as if he will improve from his number from last season. If Majai is smart, he would trade Amir while his stock is at its highest the same way Bryan Colangelo did to Ed Davis when he got Rudy Gay. A player like Amir could certainly grab us a quality veteran to complement Demar, Kyle, and Jonas--whom I believe are the Raptors' core players.
    He's also our best help defender, covers up alot of the mistakes for the guards, never needs plays called for him, has a decent enough shot to be at least semi-respected which is important for a 4, and is a core part of the chemistry on this team. Amir IS a quality veteran that compliments Demar Kyle and Jonas- who else do you think you're getting for just Amir that fits better?
    @Boymusic66

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    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    He's also our best help defender, covers up alot of the mistakes for the guards, never needs plays called for him, has a decent enough shot to be at least semi-respected which is important for a 4, and is a core part of the chemistry on this team. Amir IS a quality veteran that compliments Demar Kyle and Jonas- who else do you think you're getting for just Amir that fits better?
    Great response. Eck, even the NBA channel made a video about him.



    Having a glue guy in your starting line up is crucial, every good playoff team has at least one of them in their line up. Amir is tremendous at what he does. He makes everyone around him better by just being on the floor.

    Quote grindhouse wrote: View Post
    I agree with a ton of what you are saying but you can't hold everyone's hand these are men.

    The reality of the situation is Lowry probably wants money and MU probably doesn't want to tie himself to a player who may have only preformed this well cause it was a contract year. As much as we like what Lowry has done if there is a option that doesn't tie our hands from improving the overall roster in years to come then I would take that.

    As far as derozan goes can u surround him with players that work well with him and does Amir want to sit on the bench and be a cheerleader?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Not sure what's your point with Derozan. Amir doesn't care if he comes off the bench and even asked Casey to play him off it during the season (in the stretch where Hands Bro started).

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote TSF wrote: View Post
    He's also our best help defender, covers up alot of the mistakes for the guards, never needs plays called for him, has a decent enough shot to be at least semi-respected which is important for a 4, and is a core part of the chemistry on this team. Amir IS a quality veteran that compliments Demar Kyle and Jonas- who else do you think you're getting for just Amir that fits better?
    Let's add that he's an ELITE finisher at the rim - one of the best in the league.

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