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  • #31
    imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    It's not luck at all. Miami was the better team and they won the series. They made more plays to win, and also Popovich was out-coached by Spoelstra.

    Even if you're only looking at the Ray Allen 3, that's not lucky. Popovich had no rebounders on the floor because he wanted to cover shooters, not realizing that in the event any ball came off that rim in Bosh's vicinity he was going to get it because the Spurs had no size. So yeah LBJ missed the 3, but then Bosh got the rebound due to poor defensive game-planning by San Antonio. As a result, Ray Allen gets a mildly contested 3 in the corner, a spot from which he shoots like 50%.

    Not luck at all.

    The missed FTs by Ginobili and Kawhi aren't luck, it's two guys cracking under the pressure of being seconds away from a championship. The title was never "theirs"" like you said because they didn't fucking win it.
    No matter what, you can't deny the fact Spurs had them on the ropes.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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    • #32
      JordanMariam14 wrote: View Post
      No matter what, you can't deny the fact Spurs had them on the ropes.

      Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
      Yeah they had them on the ropes that's fine, and that's accurate. But Miami threw an uppercut and knocked them out.

      Spurs never won anything, got close as hell, and then got smacked in the jaw right at the end.

      Not to mention they still had a chance to win in game 7 and lost that as well.

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      • #33
        imanshumpert wrote: View Post
        It's not luck at all. Miami was the better team and they won the series. They made more plays to win, and also Popovich was out-coached by Spoelstra.

        Even if you're only looking at the Ray Allen 3, that's not lucky. Popovich had no rebounders on the floor because he wanted to cover shooters, not realizing that in the event any ball came off that rim in Bosh's vicinity he was going to get it because the Spurs had no size. So yeah LBJ missed the 3, but then Bosh got the rebound due to poor defensive game-planning by San Antonio. As a result, Ray Allen gets a mildly contested 3 in the corner, a spot from which he shoots like 50%.

        Not luck at all.

        The missed FTs by Ginobili and Kawhi aren't luck, it's two guys cracking under the pressure of being seconds away from a championship. The title was never "theirs"" like you said because they didn't fucking win it.
        Settle down now son. I'm not taking anything away from Miami. Obviously, a great team; one for the ages. When I refer to luck, I'm mostly referring to Miami's second to last possession, the one where James airballed the three off of the side of the backboard. They had horseshoes rammed way up on that play.
        "Stop eating your sushi."
        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
        - Jack Armstrong

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        • #34
          The only superstars that win championships are lebron Kobe and Duncan/Parker. Every superstar has not won. Look at melo, love, rose, George.

          So we do not need a superstar to win we need a lebron or Kobe type player to win championships and that probably isn't happening

          So enough talk about gutting the team to get kevin love, if he can't make the playoffs with a decent Minnesota team, he ain't winning a championship with lowry and amir since every other good player on our team would be traded for him plus all our future picks. I think we can actually win with a collection of good players rather than one superstar and a soft rest of team
          Last edited by yabadabayolo; Wed Jun 4, 2014, 07:31 PM.
          I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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          • #35
            Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
            The only superstars that win championships are lebron Kobe and Duncan/Parker. Every superstar has not won. Look at melo, love, rose, George.

            So we do not need a superstar to win we need a lebron or Kobe type player to win championships and that probably isn't happening

            So enough talk about gutting the team to get kevin love, if he can't make the playoffs with a decent Minnesota team, he ain't winning a championship with lowry and amir since every other good player on our team would be traded for him plus all our future picks. I think we can actually win with a collection of good players rather than one superstar and a soft rest of team
            Yes, there are superstars that have not won championships.
            No, there are not champions that have not featured superstars (excl. Detroit in 2004).

            You don't go after Love to win you a championship. You go after Love for the same reason Houston went after Harden: once you have one legitimate all-NBA/all-star, it is much easier to bring in others.

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            • #36
              JimiCliff wrote: View Post
              Settle down now son. I'm not taking anything away from Miami. Obviously, a great team; one for the ages. When I refer to luck, I'm mostly referring to Miami's second to last possession, the one where James airballed the three off of the side of the backboard. They had horseshoes rammed way up on that play.
              I dont really call that play lucky IMO

              It was Pop's fault he took out Duncan on that play and all Bosh did was use his height and grab a rebound and pass it out the the greatest 3pt shooter in NBA history

              Ray Allen making a corner 3 is far from luck
              "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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              • #37
                MACK11 wrote: View Post
                I dont really call that play lucky IMO

                It was Pop's fault he took out Duncan on that play and all Bosh did was use his height and grab a rebound and pass it out the the greatest 3pt shooter in NBA history

                Ray Allen making a corner 3 is far from luck
                This is my exact point. It's not "luck" it was a choke job/collapse by the Spurs combined with Miami stepping up big-time in the clutch. Pop made a coaching blunder and basically outsmarted himself by taking out Duncan.

                And like you said, Ray Allen making a corner 3 that was only moderately contested by a 6'2 Tony Parker isn't lucky at all.

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                • #38
                  Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                  The only superstars that win championships are lebron Kobe and Duncan/Parker. Every superstar has not won. Look at melo, love, rose, George.

                  So we do not need a superstar to win we need a lebron or Kobe type player to win championships and that probably isn't happening

                  So enough talk about gutting the team to get kevin love, if he can't make the playoffs with a decent Minnesota team, he ain't winning a championship with lowry and amir since every other good player on our team would be traded for him plus all our future picks. I think we can actually win with a collection of good players rather than one superstar and a soft rest of team
                  None of us said that we should gut the team. I think we're all just discussing the necessity of having a superstar to win a championship, using the Heat as the measure. We could expand that and discuss:

                  -Without a superstar, is it possible to beat the Heat?
                  -How should we go about acquiring a superstar? Via the draft, FA, or developing our own players?
                  -Do we have any players on our current roster that can be developed in to a 1st tier superstar, with the ability to take over a game?

                  1st tier superstars have value in other areas as well, such as attracting FA, allowing rotation players to focus on their play on one or two particular skill sets that they have, and the ability to draw double teams in a ball-movement system cannot be overlooked as well.

                  Of course, 1st tier superstars often have egos that have to be tempered a bit, but that's kinda an occupational hazard for them.

                  Also note that my personal preference is the beat the Heat at their best on route to a championship, as that would solidify our raptors as a true championship caliber team, currently at least.

                  This ain't about gutting the team or Kevin Love, stay on topic dude.

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                  • #39
                    Stevo wrote: View Post
                    None of us said that we should gut the team. I think we're all just discussing the necessity of having a superstar to win a championship, using the Heat as the measure. We could expand that and discuss:

                    -Without a superstar, is it possible to beat the Heat?
                    -How should we go about acquiring a superstar? Via the draft, FA, or developing our own players?
                    -Do we have any players on our current roster that can be developed in to a 1st tier superstar, with the ability to take over a game?

                    1st tier superstars have value in other areas as well, such as attracting FA, allowing rotation players to focus on their play on one or two particular skill sets that they have, and the ability to draw double teams in a ball-movement system cannot be overlooked as well.

                    Of course, 1st tier superstars often have egos that have to be tempered a bit, but that's kinda an occupational hazard for them.

                    Also note that my personal preference is the beat the Heat at their best on route to a championship, as that would solidify our raptors as a true championship caliber team, currently at least.

                    This ain't about gutting the team or Kevin Love, stay on topic dude.
                    I'm just using kev as a example, people are willing to just throw everything away for him and I feel that is not worth it.

                    I think it is possible to beat the heat without a true superstar. All you need to do is control lebron, if that is possible which it is really hard to do. You lose. Let's say we have a solid 6-7 balanced attack of solid players that can score/defend at the same time. Now that is something that can beat the heat where any one of them go off for like 20 on any day or can prohibit his opposition player for doing.

                    I'm just pointing out that you don't need a superstar player to be good but it would be nice. You can still play well even though you don't have that guy that can score at will.
                    I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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                    • #40
                      Scraptor wrote: View Post
                      Yes, there are superstars that have not won championships.
                      No, there are not champions that have not featured superstars (excl. Detroit in 2004).

                      You don't go after Love to win you a championship. You go after Love for the same reason Houston went after Harden: once you have one legitimate all-NBA/all-star, it is much easier to bring in others.
                      That isn't always true though, how many superstars has kev love attracted to Minnesota, how many did lebron attract to Cleveland. It all depends on the situation. If they all come together as a unit like Miami did than it works but if you slowly use the Houston route, well see how that turns out
                      I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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                      • #41
                        MACK11 wrote: View Post
                        I dont really call that play lucky IMO

                        It was Pop's fault he took out Duncan on that play and all Bosh did was use his height and grab a rebound and pass it out the the greatest 3pt shooter in NBA history

                        Ray Allen making a corner 3 is far from luck
                        Again, I'm not talking about that play, I'm talking about the one before it. That one was as lucky as it gets.
                        "Stop eating your sushi."
                        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                        - Jack Armstrong

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                        • #42
                          Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                          I'm just using kev as a example, people are willing to just throw everything away for him and I feel that is not worth it.

                          I think it is possible to beat the heat without a true superstar. All you need to do is control lebron, if that is possible which it is really hard to do. You lose. Let's say we have a solid 6-7 balanced attack of solid players that can score/defend at the same time. Now that is something that can beat the heat where any one of them go off for like 20 on any day or can prohibit his opposition player for doing.

                          I'm just pointing out that you don't need a superstar player to be good but it would be nice. You can still play well even though you don't have that guy that can score at will.
                          I gotta disagree here. Superstars should have consistent skills or abilities that are superior to those of an average NBA player, statistics-wise, certain intangibles like one-on-one ability, or even just a presence about them that influences their team or oppposing teams mentally/physically that can greatly increase the chances of winning a basketball game.

                          I think championship teams need that. It's not really putting all the glory or responsibility on to a select few players on a 15 man NBA team, but the NBA is a superstar driven league because teamwork is not the be-all-end-all way to sustain success. Player match-ups are more important in basketball then say soccer or hockey, where teamwork is really the ONLY way to be winning all the matches.

                          It's not pretty, but isolation plays work in basketball. It's a set play based off of taking advantage of a the match up. It gives the other players the time to focus on other areas of basketball like ball possession, positional rebounding, or spot up shooting which the iso player (superstar) integrates in to their playing style. I don't think the Heat right now can be beaten without the advantage of having a player of such quality, with the ability to draw double-teams and so on creating space and chances for his teammates to thrive against a team like the Heat.

                          Of course there are parameters like the coaches offensive/defensive system as well, but let's probably another conversation for another time.

                          And yes, I think Kevin Love is a superstar, no doubt.
                          No, I don't not think he's THE superstar that would help this team win a championship due to factors including assets lost to acquire him, his fit on the current team, and so on.
                          But yes, with a superstar LIKE him on the team the coaches can adjust their offensive schemes based on him being involved in likely 25% or more of the offensive touches in a normal game.

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                          • #43
                            Stevo wrote: View Post
                            It's not pretty, but isolation plays work in basketball. It's a set play based off of taking advantage of a the match up. It gives the other players the time to focus on other areas of basketball like ball possession, positional rebounding, or spot up shooting which the iso player (superstar) integrates in to their playing style. I don't think the Heat right now can be beaten without the advantage of having a player of such quality, with the ability to draw double-teams and so on creating space and chances for his teammates to thrive against a team like the Heat.
                            Sounds like we should go after rudy gay again doesnt. He commands a double plays ALOT of iso and scores quite a bit plus can take over games.

                            The term superstar is too vague that you can name sooo many players that by those standards are superstars. Joe johnson is a najor example how did he fare againstbthe heat.

                            Hell even demar is good at doing those things. Couldnt he be consifered a superstar. I think you can win with a colection lf demar type guys rayher than one god like player surronded by role llayers. If you have 3/4 suprrstars that fit well together than the superstar method works. So far only the heat have that working lakers failed with d12 and the brooklyn mess didnt work.

                            Sooo...your up buddy

                            Sent from my GT-S7560M using Tapatalk
                            I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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                            • #44
                              Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
                              Sounds like we should go after rudy gay again doesnt. He commands a double plays ALOT of iso and scores quite a bit plus can take over games.

                              The term superstar is too vague that you can name sooo many players that by those standards are superstars. Joe johnson is a najor example how did he fare againstbthe heat.

                              Hell even demar is good at doing those things. Couldnt he be consifered a superstar. I think you can win with a colection lf demar type guys rayher than one god like player surronded by role llayers. If you have 3/4 suprrstars that fit well together than the superstar method works. So far only the heat have that working lakers failed with d12 and the brooklyn mess didnt work.

                              Sooo...your up buddy

                              Sent from my GT-S7560M using Tapatalk
                              Well I agree with you man. If the only way to win a championship is to have a top 5 player on your team then why do most NBA fans watch at all? Most teams do not have a superstar, so whats the point of supporting a team that has no chance of winning a title? Whats the point of supporting a team that has little to no chance of even acquiring such a superstar type player, because let's face it, most teams in the league have no chance of even doing so, and the Raptors are one of them. Neither Love, Durant, or LBJ will play in TO. I do not believe there is a circumstance in which those types of players would play for the Raptors. Even if Love was traded for, he would leave in free agency. Whether it's because it's in Canada, or the Raps aren't a winning franchise close to contention, or the league would prefer to see it's superstars in large domestic markets, it really doesn't matter. We are one of the franchise's that just does not have access to 'superstars' like L.A. or NYK or Chicago.

                              But despite 'the facts', I have to believe that a team without a superstar can succeed in this league, although it seems very likely not to happen. Otherwise, I may just as well stop watching, because I think the Raps have a better chance of being a successful team without a superstar than they have of actually acquiring one.

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                              • #45
                                So, how do you guys feel? Do you believe that a superstar is absolutely necessary to be a contender, or do you think it's possible to contend with a bunch of good to great players? Because if you think the former is necessary, than I can understand how cheering for this team could be frustrating, and how it will continue to be so in the future.

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