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Thread: Why DeRozan is an ideal 2nd option for a championship team.

  1. #61
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you're saying again. But this doesn't prove that DD is "the ideal second option for a championship team" as much as it says that he's better suited to be a number two option, period. There's a big difference in that.
    And those factors coupled with his level of production make him an ideal second option for a championship team.

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    And those factors coupled with his level of production make him an ideal second option for a championship team.
    Okay, I will have to take your word for it. I still think you've taken a few loose connections between DD and previous second options on championship teams in order for a massive leap of faith. Common sense indicates that DeRozan's level of production would curtail quite a bit with less touches, less shots, more restrictions on what he's supposed to do offensively, but maybe not.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    Okay, I will have to take your word for it. I still think you've taken a few loose connections between DD and previous second options on championship teams in order for a massive leap of faith. Common sense indicates that DeRozan's level of production would curtail quite a bit with less touches, less shots, more restrictions on what he's supposed to do offensively, but maybe not.
    I think DeRozan could still score 20ppg with 15 shots a game as a 2nd option. I'd expect his shooting efficiency to improve with less bad shots being taken.

    All it would take is for him to make about 7 of those 15 shots and maybe 1 of them is a three a game. Then 5 or 6 free throws a night and you still have him scoring 20 a game. Don't think the assists or rebounds would drop at all, in fact they would probably increase.

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I think it needs to be pointed out that I do not use the term "hater" for people that don't like DeMar's game. In fact I just searched to confirm, and I have never used it to describe another poster or group of posters on this forum.

    Why do I think DeRozan would be excellent as a 2nd option aside from just the examples I've posted? Because it would reduce the number of isolation plays that are drawn up for him/he decides to take for himself. DeRozan is much better when he isn't the one initiating the offensive play. What I mean by that isn't that he's bad with the ball, but he's better catching it in motion or coming off a screen and THEN doing something rather than dribbling at the 3 point line and taking a pull-up mid-range jumper.

    Having DeMar as a 2nd option would allow him to focus on his strengths:

    - More opportunities to shoot corner threes out of offensive sets, and basically eliminate above-the-break 3 pointers from his shot attempts. This could result in him being a high 30s three point shooter. I noticed from looking at some of Richard Hamilton's shot charts that his improvement in 3pt shooting from his 6th season onwards was primarily due to just shooting more of them from the corners and not necessarily entirely because he became a better shooter.

    - He excels at coming off screens and pin-downs. Why? Because either he can clear space to get a wide-open jumpshot or he gets to isolate 1 on 1 (not this is different than an isolation set where he is basically going 1 on 5), which usually results in a basket at the rim, a dish to an open man if someone cheats to help, or free throws.

    - Operating out of the high or low post. Say you have another great wing scorer, now the other team can't necessarily put their biggest defender on DeRozan. And we've seen that DeMar has the ability to punish smaller guards (and like 90% of shooting guards are smaller than him) on the block. Would also be much riskier for the other team to throw a second defender at him in this situation (because he's not the most dangerous scoring threat).

    - Pick and roll offense. DeRozan was the second most efficient pick and roll ballhandler in the league this year. What we would be looking at here isn't running a pick and roll from the top of the key, but rather in motion. Have DeRozan come off a screen, catch the ball, then have the screener (a guy like Amir or JV) set a ball screen now and roll to the basket. That's going to result in points the majority of the time.

    All of these things would be effective as a third option as well, so I don't really see the issue there, it would really depend on who we have on the roster. Right now DeRozan is paid like a third or fourth banana. And if you look around the league, most contenders have 3 or more guys making 8 figures a season. So even an extension 2 years from now in the 11-13M range per season would make sense in a 2nd or 3rd option role.

    I just think being a 2nd option would allow DeMar to really focus on and harness his strengths. People say his mid-range shots are the issue, no that's an over-simplification of the problem. It's not the fact that he's taking mid-range jumpers that's the problem, it's the type of jumpers he's getting. Those pull-up, isolation mid-range Js are what lower his efficiency (which is actually solid btw, not great but solid especially given his role). As a second option with a proper offense, you'd see less of those and more of him focussing on the strengths I outlined above.

    I also don't really get when people say he couldn't fit into an offense like the Spurs or whatever. He's a very good passer. Both the ye test and advanced metrics would tell you that.
    It's good that you pointed out your non use of "hater". That was directed at other posters.

    I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I do think it's telling that in your extensive analysis of Derozan's game you devote little to no analysis of Demar on the defensive end.

    What does he bring defensively?

    What positives do the raps enjoy with him on defense?

    What are his short-comings defensively?

    What defensive schemes should the raptors use to maximize his strengths/minimize his weaknesses?

    What skills do surrounding players need to have to make up for Derozan's weaknesses/run optimal defensive schemes?

    This isn't sarcasm, offense is only one half of the game, and any evaluation of how likely the raps are to win a championship with Derozan needs to take into account offense & defence, in equal measure.

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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    It's good that you pointed out your non use of "hater". That was directed at other posters.

    I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I do think it's telling that in your extensive analysis of Derozan's game you devote little to no analysis of Demar on the defensive end.

    What does he bring defensively?

    What positives do the raps enjoy with him on defense?

    What are his short-comings defensively?

    What defensive schemes should the raptors use to maximize his strengths/minimize his weaknesses?

    What skills do surrounding players need to have to make up for Derozan's weaknesses/run optimal defensive schemes?

    This isn't sarcasm, offense is only one half of the game, and any evaluation of how likely the raps are to win a championship with Derozan needs to take into account offense & defence, in equal measure.
    The reason I focussed on offense is because when I say 2nd option I'm referring to 2nd scoring option (which I think is the general assumption of what a 1st, 2nd or 3rd or whatever option is). I'll answer your questions though.

    What does DeRozan bring defensively? Well let's be real, DeRozan is an average defender. He can guard his position and some small-forwards or point guards depending on their size/quickness/scoring ability. He's not someone you want to send to guard the best player on the other team, but he is capable of doing a solid job against role players on the defensive end.

    What positives do the Raps enjoy with him on defense? Well DeRozan to me is a net-zero on defense. Doesn't really improve your defense, doesn't hurt it. As far as positives, he has good size for his position and is not likely to try to do too much on defense by over-helping or overplaying passing lanes which could leave your defense exposed. Also DeRozan is effective at limiting role players to being just that, role players. His isolation defense is excellent. Obviously he usually is not guarding players that excel in isolations, but what it does mean is that the "blow-bys" that people here like to harp on him for consistently are overstated.

    What are his short-comings defensively? One thing that I've seen has improved quite a lot this year is the effort, that was really an issue for him in the past, now we're seeing a consistent effort on the defensive end which is great. One shortcoming is that his lateral quickness is not elite, which prevents him from being able to guard star wings (who usually have explosive first-steps); this can pose a problem because it requires him to play with a wing that is very good on the defensive end most of the time. Also, DeRozan does not defend the post well against larger players. We usually see this when Ross is asked to guard the smaller wing. DeRozan is undersized for the 3-spot so most of those guys can abuse him on the block and so can some bigger shooting guards (Joe Johnson for example, although he plays SF for Brooklyn).

    What defensive schemes should the Raptors use? I think we're already using the right ones. We had the 10th ranked defense last year, and as Jonas improves as an anchor an Ross' defensive IQ increases I think that can only get better. The schemes right now do a pretty good job of preventing DeRozan from having to guard the best player on the other team and maximizing his defensive ability while minimizing the effect of his weaknesses.

    What skills do surrounding players need to have? Ideally next to DeRozan what you'd want is a SF that has adequate size and length and is elite on the defensive end. Then obviously you want good rim protectors if his man gets beaten off the dribble. I think generally a championship team can get away with 1 or 2 average defenders in the starting lineup as long as the other 3 players are elite defensively and the coach puts together good schemes.

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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    The reason I focussed on offense is because when I say 2nd option I'm referring to 2nd scoring option (which I think is the general assumption of what a 1st, 2nd or 3rd or whatever option is). I'll answer your questions though.

    What does DeRozan bring defensively? Well let's be real, DeRozan is an average defender. He can guard his position and some small-forwards or point guards depending on their size/quickness/scoring ability. He's not someone you want to send to guard the best player on the other team, but he is capable of doing a solid job against role players on the defensive end.

    What positives do the Raps enjoy with him on defense? Well DeRozan to me is a net-zero on defense. Doesn't really improve your defense, doesn't hurt it. As far as positives, he has good size for his position and is not likely to try to do too much on defense by over-helping or overplaying passing lanes which could leave your defense exposed. Also DeRozan is effective at limiting role players to being just that, role players. His isolation defense is excellent. Obviously he usually is not guarding players that excel in isolations, but what it does mean is that the "blow-bys" that people here like to harp on him for consistently are overstated.

    What are his short-comings defensively? One thing that I've seen has improved quite a lot this year is the effort, that was really an issue for him in the past, now we're seeing a consistent effort on the defensive end which is great. One shortcoming is that his lateral quickness is not elite, which prevents him from being able to guard star wings (who usually have explosive first-steps); this can pose a problem because it requires him to play with a wing that is very good on the defensive end most of the time. Also, DeRozan does not defend the post well against larger players. We usually see this when Ross is asked to guard the smaller wing. DeRozan is undersized for the 3-spot so most of those guys can abuse him on the block and so can some bigger shooting guards (Joe Johnson for example, although he plays SF for Brooklyn).

    What defensive schemes should the Raptors use? I think we're already using the right ones. We had the 10th ranked defense last year, and as Jonas improves as an anchor an Ross' defensive IQ increases I think that can only get better. The schemes right now do a pretty good job of preventing DeRozan from having to guard the best player on the other team and maximizing his defensive ability while minimizing the effect of his weaknesses.

    What skills do surrounding players need to have? Ideally next to DeRozan what you'd want is a SF that has adequate size and length and is elite on the defensive end. Then obviously you want good rim protectors if his man gets beaten off the dribble. I think generally a championship team can get away with 1 or 2 average defenders in the starting lineup as long as the other 3 players are elite defensively and the coach puts together good schemes.

    Nice response, and yes the word option, has an assumed connotation of offense, I just fell like when you talk about deep playoff runs you can't only look at one side of the ball.

    I agree with most of what you say, but I'm not quite sure I can say he is average defensively, and/or a net zero on defense. If he improves the defense to get to the point of average/net zero, the case for keeping him would be MUCH stronger (EDIT: which would also raise the amount coming back to the Raps for Ujiri to accept a trade him).

    I don't have the time for it, but it would be interesting to breakdown some of the defensive numbers of SGs who play 20+ minutes/game to get a better understanding of where he actually stands. Right now my evaluate of Demar is solely based on the eye test. Not that defensive stats are great, but it would be interesting to see where he comes down.
    Last edited by ezz_bee; Tue Jun 10th, 2014 at 09:17 AM.
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    Quote ezz_bee wrote: View Post
    Nice response, and yes the word option, has an assumed connotation of offense, I just fell like when you talk about deep playoff runs you can't only look at one side of the ball.

    I agree with most of what you say, but I'm not quite sure I can say he is average defensively, and/or a net zero on defense. If he improves the defense to get to the point of average/net zero, the case for keeping him would be MUCH stronger (EDIT: which would also raise the amount coming back to the Raps for Ujiri to accept a trade him).

    I don't have the time for it, but it would be interesting to breakdown some of the defensive numbers of SGs who play 20+ minutes/game to get a better understanding of where he actually stands. Right now my evaluate of Demar is solely based on the eye test. Not that defensive stats are great, but it would be interesting to see where he comes down.
    Couldn't really find anything better than this because I don't actually have a Synergy account (if someone does that would be helpful).



    Those are his Synergy defensive stats, but kind of old (from early January I think).

    PPP(Points per Possession)

    Synergy Stats from February 1st
    Overall: 0.76 Ranks 34th
    Isolation: 0.29 Ranks 1st
    P&R Ball handler: 0.62 Ranks 17th
    Post up: 0.93 Ranks 90
    Spot up: 0.86 Ranks 46
    OffScreen: 0.98 Ranks 55

    All those ranks are league-wide ranks. Obviously DeRozan benefits from defending the worst of the other team's two wing players. But holding those players to 30 something percent shooting and the 34th best overall defensive PPP in the league is great too. I wish I could see the stats to compare him to other similar shooting guards but like I said I don't have access.

    From looking at those stats though, his main issues are defending off-ball screens and post-up plays, which is pretty consistent with what you see during games. But even in those categories, he's better than average against his competition.
    Last edited by imanshumpert; Tue Jun 10th, 2014 at 10:01 AM.

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