mcHAPPY wrote:
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Report: Lowry re-signs @ 4yr/$48M w/ETO after 3rd year
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DanH wrote: View PostAny deal you outlined except HOU for Lowry would mean a tank to me. I'd also expect Amir moved as well, for futures/picks. Honestly, even if HOU deal happens, it's probably for Lin, who is nowhere near Lowry in terms of impact.
They might not be as good as last season but they are still playing for a playoff spot.
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mcHAPPY wrote: View PostIf the Raptors could get Bledsoe in a sign and trade then it would not be tank on, in my opinion.
They might not be as good as last season but they are still playing for a playoff spot.
Getting Bledsoe is the only path I see to a non-tanking route - although I would definitely prefer not doing a S+T and giving up assets - would rather overpay with a near-max contract and hope they don't match.
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DanH wrote: View PostYeah, but you didn't propose getting Bledsoe in a S+T - you proposed Bledsoe going to the Suns and the Raptors getting picks.
Getting Bledsoe is the only path I see to a non-tanking route - although I would definitely prefer not doing a S+T and giving up assets - would rather overpay with a near-max contract and hope they don't match.
If Phoenix are looking to trade one of Dragic or, more likely, S&T Bledsoe, I think the Raptors can make a better offer than #8 and Isaiah Thomas. DeRozan and S&T Vasquez for S&T Bledsoe and #18.
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I think after lasts seasons performance there is clearly potential in this Raptors group. As such, I don't believe tanking is a strategy the Raps should employ. I guess it comes down to whether or not you believe the first statement I made there is true. If you don't believe in the core, then I can understand why anyone would want to tear it down and rebuild. With or without Lowry, I think the team can still go forward and improve.
Tanking is a situation I think is best reserved when your core has outlived it's usefulness. I think of Boston a couple of seasons ago, when it was clear that the KG, PP, Allen core were past their primes and could no longer contend as a group. They had a good run, and the best option to rebuild was to cash in on those guys as assets and acquire picks. And Boston did it proper. I don't think they were necessarily trying to lose on purpose, but obviously, without a plethora of assets that contribute to winning now, losing is what's gonna happen. In this situation, you still get to place expectations on your young guys. You don't want to pressure them of course, and you want them to learn, but not in a situation where you expect (and maybe even want) them to not compete, like it was in Philly. And Boston is now in a great situation to rebuild, either through all the draft picks they have acquired, or via trading them for known quantities or some combination of both. And I'm guessing that the turnaround will be rather quick. They could be back in the playoffs next year depending what happens this offseason. That's smart tanking/rebuilding (maybe tanking doesn't really apply to Boston in this situation?).
The Raptors, however, do not have an aging core that has outlived it's usefulness as a competitive squad. We really have no idea how good these guys can be together, as they have really only scratched the surface of their collective potential IMO. I'd like to see it for another season at least before I dismiss the group. I do believe that upgrades and additions will be needed for this group to contend, but I do not think we need to rebuild as of yet. I do think it's possible that we can add to the current group and get to the next level (EC contenders).
Furthermore, I don't think the Raps have the assets to rebuild like the Celts are. DD, Amir, Ross, Patterson, GV, KL, I don't think any of these guys will be able to net you the type of returns that would enable a proper rebuild. However, give them another year or two together, playing the way they did last year and each of those guys will look more appealing to other teams around the league. Trade any of them now and you will not be selling high IMO. But that of course, depends on the team performing well during the season. If they shit the bed, or everyone gets lazy because of new contracts, and the plan goes to shit. And that's a risk, but an outcome I think is unlikely to happen. So many of those players got there real first taste of the playoffs, I know they will want that again, and I have confidence they will play at a high level next year.
If rebuilding is in the cards, I don't think it happens anytime soon. I bet MU will try to build this team by adding to the current core, smart cap management, and smart drafting, and shrewd trades. If over the next couple of seasons it appears that these guys cannot take us to the next level, or that they are unable to attract a guy that could help take the team to the next level, then maybe MU considers a tear down or partial rebuild. At the moment, I think the situation is less than ideal for the Raps to rebuild. Not to mention how on earth would MU explain to TL and the FO that he needs to rebuild following the most successful season the team has ever had? Even if KL were to leave, MU would basically be admitting to his employers that he is not very good at his job if he thought that tanking was the best option in lew of Lowry's departure. Tanking, I feel, is something that GM's don't want to do, as it suggests there is absolutely no other way to compete without bottoming out and sucking for a few years, and no well managed franchise wants to do that. It should be a last resort, and the Raptors are far from being in that situation.Last edited by JawsGT; Fri Jun 20, 2014, 09:53 AM.
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mcHAPPY wrote: View PostI assume you meant the Kings. I said that but I also said:
Anyway, with all the other Lowry trades you are bringing in futures and not pieces that will win now - in which case it would be foolhardy to try to bring in a win-now piece in a DD move. So I'd at least hope that IF a Lowry trade occurs, and the return is primarily futures, Ujiri would look to get a futures return on DD as well, and given the choice between Bledsoe or the Bledsoe 3 team trade, Ujiri would take the picks.
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DanH wrote: View PostYou did, but then you said you just kept bringing up Bledsoe because of the Kings' rumoured interest in him.
Anyway, with all the other Lowry trades you are bringing in futures and not pieces that will win now - in which case it would be foolhardy to try to bring in a win-now piece in a DD move. So I'd at least hope that IF a Lowry trade occurs, and the return is primarily futures, Ujiri would look to get a futures return on DD as well, and given the choice between Bledsoe or the Bledsoe 3 team trade, Ujiri would take the picks.
I disagree it would be foolhardy to bring in Bledsoe. He is a good to great player and will be under contract for his prime years. The Raptors would already have Ross and JV developing plus whoever they draft this year. It is going to be hard to attract quality to that cap space in 2015 and 2016 if you don't have a proven core to work with.
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mcHAPPY wrote: View PostI will hire an editor to proof read my posts.
I disagree it would be foolhardy to bring in Bledsoe. He is a good to great player and will be under contract for his prime years. The Raptors would already have Ross and JV developing plus whoever they draft this year. It is going to be hard to attract quality to that cap space in 2015 and 2016 if you don't have a proven core to work with.
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DanH wrote: View PostYeah, foolhardy was a strong word in Bledoe's case. I just think in general, if Lowry is gone, I don't want DD moved for veteran pieces. I could get on board a Bledsoe S+T if he is making a reasonable amount (say, 12M per year). If he's making the max though, I'd rather be receiving picks in a three team deal. If you want to be using cap space, the players you have already need to be on reasonable deals, and I don't see reasonable in Bledsoe's future. If we are going forward with the core as is, then it doesn't matter as much.
While I would certainly pause at the idea of paying Bledsoe the max (actually, I wouldn't pause, I just wouldn't do it) it would still be less than Lowry/DD cap hits.
I think Bledsoe will get the Lawson deal (4 years, $48M).
If Lowry left my dream would be the #7 from LA then trade DD for Bledsoe and #18.
Take Randle or Vonleh at #7, Ennis at #18, and Capela at #20.
I'd keep rolling with what Raptors have and aim for KD/Batum/Harkless as free agent targets in 2016.
None of that is concrete and I reserve the right to change my mind - lol
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Demar Derozan would be soooo disappointed to find out that fans are mentioning the word 'tank' ...
Personally I won't be too disappointed if Lowry leaves. I think Vasquez is capable of filling up that empty hole, if Lowry were to leave. And we can easily pick up point gaurd at #20 pick or hopefully we can sign Bledsoe or Isaih Thomas and so on
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The Raptors just finished their best regular season in franchise history, went 7 games in the first round with a young team after missing the playoffs for five years, and it took one "Lowry to the Heat" rumor to light the wick on the tank/anti-tank TNT?
I'm not saying this for any particular reason guys, but honestly if this discussion takes over these message boards again, I'll be checking out until October. We just had a half season break from the tanking discussion, and I LOVED IT."We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard
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Need to build on PG position if he leaves or not, theres going to be something waiting for us at that 20th pick (Ennis)
But if lowry leaves, the team really needs to take a look at what needs to happen to bring in names like Thomas, Dragic or Bledsoe
really looking foward to Thursday, and watching Magic Masai go to work
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jarvis295 wrote: View PostNeed to build on PG position if he leaves or not, theres going to be something waiting for us at that 20th pick (Ennis)
But if lowry leaves, the team really needs to take a look at what needs to happen to bring in names like Thomas, Dragic or Bledsoe
really looking foward to Thursday, and watching Magic Masai go to work
Lowry proves that if we have someone filling that role we can be a good team, so we just need to fill that role.
If it turns out that signing one of those guys is much harder than me simply writing it in this post, then we should just ride it out and see what happens.
Everyone is making the mistake of not factoring in the individual improvements JV, ross and DD will make. They won't be the same this year...so that should factor in. If Ross starts to show that he can reach his potential, we'll have two great wing players and a great center. so What's so bad about that?
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