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Thread: Are we treadmilling?

  1. #1
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    Default Are we treadmilling?

    Not saying we are but I'm starting to see the "treadmill" sentiment building up (particularly CalgaryRapsFan and McHAPPY's comments caught my eye). Are people worried that with the DeMarre Carroll and no subsequent moves (yet), we're in danger of becoming a treadmill team once again? Is the DeMarre signing the equivalent of the Hedo signing in 2009?

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    Teams like Milwaukee, Boston and Orlando can only get better considering how much youth they have. Then you have Miami and Indiana likely coming back full-force this year if healthy...

    Is Masai... dare I say it... a false messiah?

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    Carroll is an improvement over any SF we had last year. There are a number of PF candidates still available via trade or FA who are an improvement over Amir. We can expect continued growth from JV. We'll have cap space (along with every other team in the league) next year, plus four draft picks in the next two years to either trade for compete now assets, or to form the core of a true rebuild. From the moves this year (trading Vasquez, no signs of retaining Lou currently), there's reason to believe that the management of the Raptors understands what the problems were with the team's identity and style of play last year (though I'm skeptical that Casey really gets it, and will remain skeptical until the on-court style of play improves dramatically).

    Not everyone has the same definition, but to me, treadmilling means a team getting stuck in a position where they don't have any reasonable options that will allow them to improve. I don't see that as where we are right now. We are at a point where growth is slowing, however. And that's reason for concern, but not alarm.
    tank-agnostic

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    Super Moderator Axel's Avatar
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    Offseason is still too early to judge things like this. Subsequent moves are needed to assess.

    We haven't given up any assets yet (letting Amir walk was expected), so we still have all the same flexibility as before. Carroll is a solid defender (which we desperately needed) but haven't really done anything else yet.
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    To me treadmilling means being stuck around the 8th seed in the conference or just out. Too good to get high picks, too bad to win in the playoffs.

    I know we just got swept, but we also won 48-49 games for two years in a row, and we are in the Leastern conference. We also have never been to the conference finals in franchise history. In a situation like this, I think you have to build towards winning.

    I think we have a shot to win a couple playoff rounds, and after that you never know what may happen, depending on injuries, matchups, luck. Even just winning a couple rounds and getting to conference finals would be special.

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    We basically have 5 rookies either on the roster or in the development program. Then we potentially have 4 first rounders over the next two season. Finally, we have flexibility to make further moves this summer and next. We have a solid foundation on which to grow.

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    way to clearly to tell....a Gibson trade & Biyombo signing seem inevitable at this point but until we see the complete picture can't judge

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    So many threads want all the answers now... it's way too early to tell. It's July Freaking 3rd.
    Keep Calm & Chive On

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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with tread-milling for a while.

    There was an article by well-respected basketball analytics guy that showed that tread-milling for a while is actually a more successful strategy than losing big (e.g. like the Sixers). Golden State, Houston and Atlanta are just 2 recent examples of teams that have gone from treadmill to conference finalists. Cavs are an un-precedented case in sports franchise building (i.e. the best player in the league coming home from a contender, in his prime).

    Losing Is Not a Winning Strategy in the NBA
    http://freakonomics.com/2013/10/29/l...gy-in-the-nba/

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    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Treadmilling is being capped out and having no prospects.

    Raptors aren't treadmilling. They should have one lottery pick next year and have a lot of cap space because the cap is going up.

    Raptors however are still pretenders until they can get a tier 1 talent on their roster. Masai has to hit a home run with that pick next year or start trading part of the core. As LMA has proven... top tier talent will not be coming to Toronto any time soon.

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    I agree with your last statement, that Knicks/ nuggets draft pick could be very special next year. The Bruno , Mo Pete's , Delon Wright are solid complementary players.

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    I think the Clippers are a good example of treadmilling and the Grizzlies too. I don't see either team ever winning the west in the current climate although they are two really good teams. I think they've hit their ceilings and should reboot. But thats just me.

    We're more reloading or retooling. The best thing that could have happened for our team was a first round sweep. The false optimism pre-playoffs of our team was nauseating. I'm glad thats over. I'm even more glad Masai was skeptical about our chances about winning and this was a sign of good intuition on his part. Now, he's fixing our personnel to improve our chances and addressing some of our roster issues. It's far from perfect but he has the whole summer and then some to make changes.

    I think he gives Casey one more full year with the Raptors and has him step down from his position after this final opportunity. Unless the improbable happens and Casey wins big. But i doubt it.
    Last edited by BS10; Fri Jul 3rd, 2015 at 03:16 PM.

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    This isn't treadmilling we have picks for next years draft that we can use to trade up. We have financial flexibility and assets.

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    Quote Heatdreamer wrote: View Post
    I agree with your last statement, that Knicks/ nuggets draft pick could be very special next year. The Bruno , Mo Pete's , Delon Wright are solid complementary players.
    Pretty sure Mo Pete is staying retired.
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    NYK/DEN pick could be huge - hopefully it's high lottery. Otherwise, on this trajectory, the Raps are well on their way to putting together a nice team that will probably make the second round and go no further. So far Masai is adding to a one-and-done core with role players and late first-round rookies. If they re-sign DeMar, essentially everything will hinge on that NKY/DEN pick or lucking into a James-Harden-trade type of situation where you package a few assets for a top-tier franchise player.

  20. #16
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    This franchise just learned to crawl, let's stand up and take a few steps before we collectively start belly aching about possible cramps or stitches to come.
    Last edited by Raptor Jesus; Fri Jul 3rd, 2015 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote BS10 wrote: View Post
    I think the Clippers are a good example of treadmilling and the Grizzlies too. I don't see either team ever winning the west in the current climate although they are two really good teams. I think they've hit their ceilings and should reboot. But thats just me.

    We're more reloading or retooling. The best thing that could have happened for our team was a first round sweep. The false optimism pre-playoffs of our team was nauseating. I'm glad thats over. I'm even more glad Masai was skeptical about our chances about winning and this was a sign of good intuition on his part. Now, he's fixing our personnel to improve our chances and addressing some of our roster issues. It's far from perfect but he has the whole summer and then some to make changes.
    Well, if Clippers and Grizzlies are treadmilling, then I want to be treadmilling. I understand your point of view, but I think that when you have multiple all stars, including 1 or more top 10 player, you have to build to win. If you are where they are, then it doesn't take that much to get over the top. Just one right move, some luck, maybe some low draft pick turning into Draymond Green. A year ago most people probably would've put Warriors into the same category as the Clippers and the Grizzlies.

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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    This franchise just learned to crawl, let's stand up and take a few steps before we collectively start belly aching about possible cramps or stitches to come.
    What does that even mean? KL is 30. DD could be a UFA at seasons end. We've had 2 seasons of this core to know what they are.
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    gotta start by defining what a tread mill team is, because that's where most of the disagreement stems from:

    1. A playoff team that has no real hope at contending:

    Yes, if that's how you define treadmill, then we are on it.

    2. A playoff team that has no hope at contending, and has no avenue to make changes in the coming years:

    No, we've got picks and flexibility and lots of tradable contracts.

    Ultimately, there really only are 4 or 5 teams that contend every year, and not being one of those teams, we are in one of the best spots to be, barring Minnesota and Milwaukee.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

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    The concern is definitely valid that this team is starting to cross off its draft picks/cap space options as time goes by and still doesn't have a franchise player talent.

    The Pelicans, for example, haven't accomplished anything more than the Raptors recently, but they've got a work-in-progress situation centred around Anthony Davis, who's already getting MVP votes. Figuring out how to add role players to your superstar is a much more comfortable situation to be in than one where you're still figuring out how to get a superstar.

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