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Thread: Is Casey right? Is the day of the C over??

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Is Casey right? Is the day of the C over??

    The article on the mainpage has pushed me over the top.

    Since Casey's comments about the day of the C being done so many have jumped on that bandwagon and said, "yeah yeah yeah!"

    I'm not sure how many people have actually played at a high level or coached basketball but here is how it goes:

    In a game you look for an advantage.
    If you find it you capitalize on it until the other team adapts or neutralizes the advantage.


    Simple.


    You are not guaranteed to gain an advantage by merely going small.
    Nor are you guaranteed to negate the possible advantage of another team going small by going small yourself.



    What is over looked in the whole small ball circle jerk of the last few days is you need very skilled players at every position and at your traditional big position(s) you need strength, length, and skill.

    But it really doesn't matter how you play as long as you have the guys to play it. It was just 1 year ago that San Antonio won with a traditional approach to the size of players but they employed on and off ball movement combined with shooting and good decision making.

    Golden State was successful because they had the guys to play a particular way.... just as San Antonio was last season with Tim Duncan and Tiago Splitter up front.



    I put this recent trend in the same context as those who state there is only one way to build a team in the NBA and that is a big fat, "Ugh, NO."

    There is no shortage of ways to build or play - but however you choose to go about either - you better have the right guys to do it.


    What Casey has always failed to grasp is he doesn't have the guys to play small ball nor does he have the guys to play scramble defense..... but that hasn't stopped him from pounding the rock. Every year Casey talks about how he doesn't have the right guys....even when he gets what he wanted from the previous season (If only we had a guy to stop Paul Pierce!!! - lol).


    And now we've come full circle on the issue: the job of a coach is to maximize the talent and abilities of the players he has. Casey has failed at this time and time again.... unless you think promoting inefficient volume scoring is a viable and sustainable approach to winning basketball games.


    I'm glad GS won. I'm glad D'Antoni and Don Nelson are getting a lot of credit for their trailblazing ways. However, the recency bias is currently overwhelming.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Nice post!

    I was thinking the exact same thing over the past few days. Whether it's basketball, another sport, or life in general, you don't succeed simply by copying what other successful people are doing. You have to recognize your own strengths and play to them, turning them into a benefit for you. You also need to be able to adapt, because there is not a single approach that will be successful at all times, in all circumstances, for ever and ever.

    I definitely agree that this sort of summarizes all the criticisms about Casey. He utilizes a system that doesn't fit the roster, he doesn't maximize the skill of individual players, he doesn't use a team-first approach the allows the skills of the 5-man unit to compliment each other, and he's proven time and time again to be unable to adapt (especially in-game).

    Whether a team is primarily big, primarily small, or able to throw out multiple looks, it all comes down to 4 factors:

    1. talent
    2. maximizing individual skills (ie: playing to strengths while minimizing weaknesses)
    3. fit / chemistry (ie: player skills/roles need to compliment each other, and every player needs to accept his role)
    4. team-first play (ie: play as 1 unit, not as 5 individuals)
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Jun 17th, 2015 at 11:11 AM.

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    Lebron was playing 1 vs. 10 deep on GSW, so it's pretty idiotic to draw any conclusions. Even then, the series was 4-2 with 2 games going to OT.

    The main takeaway from Casey's statements is that he's publicly "defending" himself from the criticism he's gotten throughout this season because of his strategies (or lack thereof) and handling of JV. Defending himself in the media (and probably to MLSE) is probably the best defensive scheme he's executed all year.

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    Everyone knows Casey is an idiot and his comments should be taken with a grain of salt.

    Having said that, this year's NBA draft is the year of the Centers. Towns, Okafor, Stein, Kaminsky, Turner, etc… Regardless of what people say about centres as being not as used or useful as they use to, they're still going to be drafted at a high spot.

    I think not using Centers in certain line ups or as frequently more reflects the lack of talented centres rather than small ball posing as a threat to their likelihood. If I had Prime Shaq, Hakeem, or Russell, I'd have them dominate the paint all day.

    I think this years draft nominee Towns has the potential to change the role of the position to be more valued with his all around skillset. This guy it seems is good at about everything. Minnesota is soooo lucky if they draft him.

    Small ball worked for GS cause they had the roster to do it. Kerr played to the team's strengths. It wasn't just the strategy it was also the players that he had available to him to fit into the system. As much as it is the system, its also the players and their talents that are able to be maximized in the system.

    Congrats to GS though, was rooting for them all the way.
    Last edited by BS10; Wed Jun 17th, 2015 at 11:41 AM.

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    Again please remind me why did MU retain DC?

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote psrs1 wrote: View Post
    Again please remind me why did MU retain DC?
    I don't know.

    I am not going to lie.... I am concerned.

    The only logical explanation I have is this season is going to be a transition year.

    Hopefully next week kicks that off.

    The other issue here is, lets say JV is trade bait, Casey's comments are hardly raising his stock.

    Idiocy all around.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    agree completely

    Casey is the king of saying players don't fit what he wants to do and so help me god if i ever hear him mention how much he wants tyson chandler back in some shape or form again.

    he's an assistant coach that won it all before while having an extremely talented team with a TON of vets and a first team all nba PF in Nowitzki. congrats! with 2 all stars and a young, talented big man in JV he hasn't gotten to the second round of the playoffs. in the east. he's been thoroughly out-coached time and time again in important games and is an absolute cancer towards developing young players.

    but yes, let's dump JV because he likes the way golden state play the game.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Jangles's Avatar
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    McHappy mad, McHappy smash!

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    I don't know.

    I am not going to lie.... I am concerned.

    The only logical explanation I have is this season is going to be a transition year.

    Hopefully next week kicks that off.

    The other issue here is, lets say JV is trade bait, Casey's comments are hardly raising his stock.

    Idiocy all around.
    the only thing, the ONLY thing i can think of is he's not allowed to hire a new coach this offseason because casey still has a year on his contract.

    i will be SHOCKED if he doesn't fire him at some point during the season and roll with Nurse.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Will Masai come out from behind the curtain and support or deny that Casey position?

    My take is that anything Casey says publicly is in tune with the f/o position. This extends to what happened last season. I thought it was rather disingenuous of Masai to give the impression that he does not meddle with a coach's macro positioning/philosophy running a team, enduring the meltdown after the ASG and season's end, say he is evaluating the coaching and ends up firing 2 asst coaches but retains Casey. The takeaway for me is that both were in lockstep. Now this. I dont think I have ever heard another NBA coach (save DAntoni) who spoke of a game changing philosophy (7 secs or less shot making). But Dwane Casey?

    All I can say is MU had better make some ground breaking off season moves cause it's not making any sense.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Do we really need to be calling people Idiots in the Subject line?? LOL

    That being said, I agree with the general premise of the thread. A team with Demarcus Cousins would never go small to match another team .. they would just expose the mismatch and let DCo go Ham. Unfortunately, there's not many DCo's in the league.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    Do we really need to be calling people Idiots in the Subject line?? LOL
    That being said, I agree with the general premise of the thread. A team with Demarcus Cousins would never go small to match another team .. they would just expose the mismatch and let DCo go Ham. Unfortunately, there's not many DCo's in the league.
    Bold: Ooops. I was really fired up when I started. I had calmed down considerably by the end.

    re: DMC. That is exactly my point. There is no one set way to win and if DMC ever gets stability and the right pieces around him, it could be very scary what he does. To the extent there aren't a lot of DMC around, there also are not a lot of Curry's or LeBron's or Harden's or Durant's etc.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

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    Raptors Republic Starter Just Is's Avatar
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    Casey is an idiot. That's what the narrative has shown. That's what his own statements have shown. I've said this previously but the actual success of the Raptors over the last 2 season have been IN SPITE of Casey; not because of him.

    As far as the article on the main page, it highlights so much of what I've been hearing. It completely ignores the actual context. Even looking at GS's entire run during the playoffs, they only actually went small during the last 4 games of the Finals. And even then, that was because they were forced to. Cleveland didn't possess a big that has even a remotely strong enough post game to make GS pay for going small (not to mention; Cleveland had a shrunken bench due to injuries so they really didn't have a lot of options). It's REALLY that simple.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar JimiCliff's Avatar
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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    Do we really need to be calling people Idiots in the Subject line?? LOL
    Although harsh, it isn't unfair.

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote ceez wrote: View Post
    but yes, let's dump JV because he likes the way golden state play the game.
    Lol But even then, it was 7'0" Andrew Bogut starting 65 games (and netting All-Defense 2nd Team) that really helped GS get to 67 wins during the regular season. Playing Draymond Green at Center for 82 games will get you no where, in my humble opinion.
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote JimiCliff wrote: View Post
    Although harsh, it isn't unfair.
    Regardless, if people have a differing opinion, we should encourage the ensuing debate. There is obviously merit to the idea that Small Ball is, and can be, effective in the right circumstances.

    It just drives me nuts when Casey tries to play "me too" with the complete wrong personel to do it with. And compounds on that by having the complete wrong system for JV to thrive in, and then tries to justify either end with "the center is gone".
    "That was Nasty right? Cocked that Joint back and banged on 'em." -James Johnson

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    Keeping with the idiocy theme, which is quite appropriate in this context - suppose your goal was actually to trade JV? What purpose would this statement serve, other than to seriously undermine his value on the trade market? Wouldn't Masai be pissed about that? JV's agent has got to be steaming.

    There's really only 2 conclusions: (1) Casey's being idiotic just covering his ass & to hell with the collateral damage to the franchise or (2) Masai is also in on it and the Raps want to sign JV to a low-ball extension.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Just Is's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Keeping with the idiocy theme, which is quite appropriate in this context - suppose your goal was actually to trade JV? What purpose would this statement serve, other than to seriously undermine his value on the trade market? Wouldn't Masai be pissed about that? JV's agent has got to be steaming.

    There's really only 2 conclusions: (1) Casey's being idiotic just covering his ass & to hell with the collateral damage to the franchise or (2) Masai is also in on it and the Raps want to sign JV to a low-ball extension.
    Was he wearing his Championship ring at the time? I think it's (1) in either case. His job is completely safe and he was getting criticized for this throughout the season; he's trying to save his ass.

    If I'm JV; I'm sincerely considering to sign the QO.

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    Quote Joey wrote: View Post
    Regardless, if people have a differing opinion, we should encourage the ensuing debate. There is obviously merit to the idea that Small Ball is, and can be, effective in the right circumstances.
    Small ball just won the NBA finals and fans around here are calling people who believe in small ball an Idiots !!! It is really sad.

    As far as the main page article and as you mentioned here, there are still room for Big Cs in this league. These big Cs can still dominate in paint and enforce their will. The article in the main page pointed to it and clearly explained how.

    The problem starts on the defensive end and where your centre does not have the lateral quickness and is not able to chase and guard the smaller player.

    I think the days of Heavy, slow, non-mobile, Cs is gone in NBA but guys like DCs, AD who are athletic, quick, fast, mobile, have a foot work will still dominate the game.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Just Is's Avatar
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    Quote McRealistic wrote: View Post
    Small ball just won the NBA finals and fans around here are calling people who believe in small ball an Idiots !!! It is really sad.

    As far as the main page article and as you mentioned here, there are still room for Big Cs in this league. These big Cs can still dominate in paint and enforce their will. The article in the main page pointed to it and clearly explained how.

    The problem starts on the defensive end and where your centre does not have the lateral quickness and is not able to chase and guard the smaller player.

    I think the days of Heavy, slow, non-mobile, Cs is gone in NBA but guys like DCs, AD who are athletic, quick, fast, mobile, have a foot work will still dominate the game.
    I might have the dates off but I'm pretty sure San Antonio won the title last year and I'm also pretty sure that Duncan played a pretty big role in that run.

    And that GS wasn't able to go small against the Memphis or Houston.

    Context of what happened in the finals REALLY needs to be considered. It's not about whether or not small ball is a good or bad thing (there are various definitions on what even constitutes small ball); it's about looking at it in the actual context.
    Last edited by Just Is; Wed Jun 17th, 2015 at 01:06 PM.

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