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Thread: Everything Bruno Caboclo

  1. #1061
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I think this is the crux of issue people have with Casey. It's not a matter of deserving, it's a matter of trusting. In Salmon's case, it was obvious to all that at some point, he shouldn't have even been put into games. Even a one-armed Fields would be a better option, or simply sticking with Ross. However, Casey trusts his veterans, because he feels that they should make the right plays, and is willing to roll the dice on that. The unfairness comes in when fans see that Casey's trusted veterans aren't really contributing to winning, but there seems to be no negative consequences (i.e. less playing time) to the vets. In contrast, when the rooks or sophs make one mistake, it's an immediate hook.
    In the part you bolded, when I said "who deserve it more", what I meant by that was that they had already earned their playing time.

    I agree that all players should continue to have to earn their playing time, regardless whether they're a rookie or grizzled vet, starter or backup. I think a 3rd string guy like Bruno, who is so young and inexperienced, has to do so much more to prove that he's not only worthy of playing time, but that he's worthy of it ahead of the other players who are currently ahead of him on the Raptors' depth chart.

    Believe me, I was as vocal as anybody on here over the past few seasons, regarding the quick hook that DC had for Valanciunas & Ross and, more importantly, his unwillingness to put them back in within the same game to show that they were able to correct their mistakes.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    I don't want to be seen as a Bruno hater, cause I actually like him a lot. His skill set complement our franchise players Klow and DD. Also I believe him and AJ would cover JV's shortcoming defensively pretty well. Having said all that Bruno hasn't proven or earned anything
    @Chr1st1anL

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    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    In the part you bolded, when I said "who deserve it more", what I meant by that was that they had already earned their playing time.

    I agree that all players should continue to have to earn their playing time, regardless whether they're a rookie or grizzled vet, starter or backup. I think a 3rd string guy like Bruno, who is so young and inexperienced, has to do so much more to prove that he's not only worthy of playing time, but that he's worthy of it ahead of the other players who are currently ahead of him on the Raptors' depth chart.

    Believe me, I was as vocal as anybody on here over the past few seasons, regarding the quick hook that DC had for Valanciunas & Ross and, more importantly, his unwillingness to put them back in within the same game to show that they were able to correct their mistakes.
    I also think there's something to be said for the difference between rookie and (common) veteran mistakes.

    While Bruno getting a steal and a turnover within a couple minutes may be equal mathematically, I think having an unpredictable teammate can affect other players negatively. Either you hesitate passing the ball for fear it won't come back or you second guess making a rotation on defense, wondering if the rookie will cover for you or not, etc.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    In the part you bolded, when I said "who deserve it more", what I meant by that was that they had already earned their playing time.

    I agree that all players should continue to have to earn their playing time, regardless whether they're a rookie or grizzled vet, starter or backup. I think a 3rd string guy like Bruno, who is so young and inexperienced, has to do so much more to prove that he's not only worthy of playing time, but that he's worthy of it ahead of the other players who are currently ahead of him on the Raptors' depth chart.

    Believe me, I was as vocal as anybody on here over the past few seasons, regarding the quick hook that DC had for Valanciunas & Ross and, more importantly, his unwillingness to put them back in within the same game to show that they were able to correct their mistakes.
    Ok, I probably over-reacted to semantics, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg, isn't it. Why should the bar be higher for rooks and sophs? It should really be case-by-case. And how do young players get the opportunity to even prove they're worthy, when they are not getting minutes and looking over their shoulder when they do? Players in that situation are tense and not playing loose - over-thinking and forcing your game instead of letting it come to you, just so you can make a visible impact. It's a negative spiral. That was basically what T. Ross said... becoming a starter allowed him to play relaxed, knowing he would have guaranteed minutes and be allowed to play through his mistakes. I'm not saying to make everything rook a starter, but if the goal is development, and he isn't hurting the team, then there should be some level of consistency with respect to role and minutes. And in the case of Ross' development, if Casey's alternative was Salmons (or Anderson, before that), then it should have been a no-brainer. If all of them suck equally, then you give Ross the minutes because at least you can get some long term return-on-investment by developing him. There's no point in 'investing' in players who have either plateaued, or worse in the case of Salmons - is on the downside, when you have equally 'bad' options.

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  6. #1065
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Casey's m.o. of teaching young guys by benching them for mistakes and requiring them to earn their minutes by doing what he's asking them to do is well established and not at all unique. A lot of coaches do that, virtually all of them when you're talking playoff teams.

    You don't hook a vet like Salmons the same way because a.) He's already earned his minutes (that's what being a vet is all about), and b.) You disrespect a 30+ year old vet by treating him like a 19 year old kid. You'd talk to Salmons instead of benching him, but you'd also be aware of his limitations - he is what he is at that stage - whereas you're still hoping to develop the skills and mindset of your young guys.

    This stuff isn't that weird and I don't know why theae boards get so riled up about it. I'd have liked to see JV and Ross get a few more minutes last year, but I can appreciate what Casey's doing. It's just a coaching style, which'll suit some players better than giving them a long leash and some less so.

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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Casey's m.o. of teaching young guys by benching them for mistakes and requiring them to earn their minutes by doing what he's asking them to do is well established and not at all unique. A lot of coaches do that, virtually all of them when you're talking playoff teams.

    You don't hook a vet like Salmons the same way because a.) He's already earned his minutes (that's what being a vet is all about), and b.) You disrespect a 30+ year old vet by treating him like a 19 year old kid. You'd talk to Salmons instead of benching him, but you'd also be aware of his limitations - he is what he is at that stage - whereas you're still hoping to develop the skills and mindset of your young guys.

    This stuff isn't that weird and I don't know why theae boards get so riled up about it. I'd have liked to see JV and Ross get a few more minutes last year, but I can appreciate what Casey's doing. It's just a coaching style, which'll suit some players better than giving them a long leash and some less so.
    I think it's the 'he is what he is' that gets the fans riled up. At some point, you know Salmons is going to be so bad, why even play him in the first place? And I'm not so sure about the "that's what virtually all coaches on playoff teams do".

    The best example is Popovich and Tony Parker. In Parker's rookie year, Pop had the option of playing the 16-year vet, Terry Porter, or the 19-year old, 29th pick of the draft, from France, with no jump-shot. Parker started 72 games for a 59-win team with championship aspirations, and Porter came off the bench 72 times. Is there any question what Casey would have done, given the choice? And that's what makes Popovich so great. He had the balls to go with his gut, recognize potential talent and go right at development, rather than play it safe. And that gamble has paid for itself many times over. In the case of Ross over Salmons, that doesn't even look like a gamble. Salmons shouldn't even have been on the court. At some point, vets also 'un-earn' their minutes, too.

    Vince Carter got to start over even a solid 2-way veteran like Doug Christie, just based on pre-season, as yet another example even closer to home of a coach who wasn't afraid to play talented youth over 'vets who earned it'. At some point, it crosses the line to entitlement, which is equally bad.

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  10. #1067
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    Ok, I probably over-reacted to semantics, but it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg, isn't it. Why should the bar be higher for rooks and sophs? It should really be case-by-case. And how do young players get the opportunity to even prove they're worthy, when they are not getting minutes and looking over their shoulder when they do? Players in that situation are tense and not playing loose - over-thinking and forcing your game instead of letting it come to you, just so you can make a visible impact. It's a negative spiral. That was basically what T. Ross said... becoming a starter allowed him to play relaxed, knowing he would have guaranteed minutes and be allowed to play through his mistakes. I'm not saying to make everything rook a starter, but if the goal is development, and he isn't hurting the team, then there should be some level of consistency with respect to role and minutes. And in the case of Ross' development, if Casey's alternative was Salmons (or Anderson, before that), then it should have been a no-brainer. If all of them suck equally, then you give Ross the minutes because at least you can get some long term return-on-investment by developing him. There's no point in 'investing' in players who have either plateaued, or worse in the case of Salmons - is on the downside, when you have equally 'bad' options.
    1st bold - my thinking is that if you go into the season with a clearly established starter, 2nd and 3rd string, the lower you are down the depth chart, the more you need to prove yourself in order to move up. If the 3rd string plays well, but no better than the 1st/2nd string, he'll remain buried as the 3rd string. First you need to prove your worth to maintain your current spot, then you have to prove your worthy of overtaking another player - that's where I have a hard time believing that Bruno will earn minutes over the combination of DeRozan/Ross/Williams/JJ/Vasquez/Fields.

    2nd bold - I already addressed this in a previous post; I agree with you on the surface and argued the same point in years past. However, I think this year the depth ahead of Bruno isn't made up of worthless vets, as it has been in the past. Fields is probably the only wing that will be gone after this season, but that still leaves Bruno behind DeRozan and Ross (young, entrenched long-term starters), Williams (young and itching to prove his worth to be re-signed long-term) and JJ (relatively young, signed to value deal, looking to prove his worth in fight of his own for minutes). It's not longer a situation of blue-chip prospect (ie: Valanciunas & Ross) VS worthless veteran who isn't in future plans.

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  12. #1068
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    I've been reading and my 2 cents are
    Bruno even if he out plays JJ or any other vet he would still most likely be buried on the bench just because of his age. We seen 1st hand how playing a rookie minutes speeds up development or helps them play better because they constantly don't have to look behind them and they know they can make mistakes and play through them.

    This is exactly what we did with DeMar and look how he turned out. But the notion that just because Salmons or any other vet should get minutes because they are a vet is stupid this is what happened last year and with Allan Anderson as well. All I'm saying is if it's clear that this vet is playing and he's playing like shit but he still gets minutes just because hes a vet is ridiculous. The players that play well regardless of age or experience should be in the game.

    And I see some posters saying Bruno, Ross, and Jonas all have to prove that they should get minutes and I agree but when the guy ahead of them on the depth chart is playing terrible and he still gets his minutes while the younger players don't play how is that setting a good example? We all know Casey loves his vets regardless is they play good or bad. So why do the young guys have to prove they should play but the vets get a free pass?

    Also why even over play vets when you know they're not the long term solution? It's not like we're contenders so we need our younger guys to develop and lead this team like DeMar
    Last edited by MACK11; Wed Oct 15th, 2014 at 05:09 PM.

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  14. #1069
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    I've been reading and my 2 cents are
    Bruno even if he out plays JJ or any other vet he would still most likely be buried on the bench just because of his age. We seen 1st hand how playing a rookie minutes speeds up development or helps them play better because they constantly don't have to look behind them and they know they can make mistakes and play through them.

    This is exactly what we did with DeMar and look how he turned out. But the notion that just because Salmons or any other vet should get minutes because they are a vet is stupid this is what happened last year and with Allan Anderson as well. All I'm saying is if it's clear that this vet is playing and he's playing like shit but he still gets minutes just because hes a vet is ridiculous. The players that play well regardless of age or experience should be in the game.

    And I see some posters saying Bruno, Ross, and Jonas all have to prove that they should get minutes and I agree but when the guy ahead of them on the depth chart is playing terrible and he still gets his minutes while the younger players don't play how is that setting a good example? We all know Casey loves his vets regardless is they play good or bad. So why do the young guys have to prove they should play but the vets get a free pass?

    Also why even over play vets when you know they're not the long term solution? It's not like we're contenders so we need our younger guys to develop and lead this team like DeMar
    I haven't seen anybody suggesting the bold should (or will) be the case. If any of the players currently ahead of Bruno on the depth chart play poorly - whether it's a key young player like Ross or a veteran like Williams/JJ/Fields - then they won't have earned their playing time and shouldn't get playing time by default. Although, I suppose an argument could be made that a struggling Ross should still take priority, given the investment in him - but that's another discussion entirely.

    The other issue is the subjective nature of 'struggling'. Also, how much must one of these players struggle, to get to the point that playing a super-green Bruno in critical moments of a game is putting the Raptors in a better position to win the game? I honestly don't know, because it's definitely not an easy question. Ross or Williams having an off shooting night, or JJ having a 'I think I'm the 2nd coming of MJ' night, are not nearly the same as giving heavy minutes to the likes of utterly useless players like Pietrus, Kleiza, Butler, etc...

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    expecct to see what they did to T-mac the first few years he was here garbage time player

  16. #1071
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    I think it's the 'he is what he is' that gets the fans riled up. At some point, you know Salmons is going to be so bad, why even play him in the first place? And I'm not so sure about the "that's what virtually all coaches on playoff teams do".

    The best example is Popovich and Tony Parker. In Parker's rookie year, Pop had the option of playing the 16-year vet, Terry Porter, or the 19-year old, 29th pick of the draft, from France, with no jump-shot. Parker started 72 games for a 59-win team with championship aspirations, and Porter came off the bench 72 times. Is there any question what Casey would have done, given the choice? And that's what makes Popovich so great. He had the balls to go with his gut, recognize potential talent and go right at development, rather than play it safe. And that gamble has paid for itself many times over. In the case of Ross over Salmons, that doesn't even look like a gamble. Salmons shouldn't even have been on the court. At some point, vets also 'un-earn' their minutes, too.

    Vince Carter got to start over even a solid 2-way veteran like Doug Christie, just based on pre-season, as yet another example even closer to home of a coach who wasn't afraid to play talented youth over 'vets who earned it'. At some point, it crosses the line to entitlement, which is equally bad.
    Bold is a great point. Everything you read about Bruno is that his work ethic and dedication to improving is off the charts - similar to DD.

    Another great example of Pop developing players immediately and having them contribute is Kawhi Leonard. He was 20 in his rookie year and played PF in college. Not only did he adapt to the NBA game, he adapted to playing SF and adding a 3pt shot to his game. His rookie year was lockout shortened 66 game season. Spurs won 50 games and went to Conference Finals with Leonard playing 64, starting 39, for 24 minutes per game. In the playoffs he started 14 of 14 and 29mpg.


    Of course everyone is going to point out: yeah but we don't have Pop nor TP nor TD nor Manu. Exactly. The Raptors are still developing. They Should be pretty damn good this year but they aren't a contender, I don't think. I'm all about looking 2-3 seasons down the road and it si exactly what I felt about JV. When games start to matter, like they do now, and REALLY matter, like they hopefully will in next 1-2 years, you don't want your talented young players experiencing it for the first time. Indiana has shown how quickly a window can close.

    Develop the talent.


    Now don't forget I very much realize Bruno is raw but he is talented. 50+ games and on average 10mins per game is not excessive or unreasonable, I don't think. Again, we're talking Novak minutes.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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  18. #1072
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    I've been reading and my 2 cents are
    Bruno even if he out plays JJ or any other vet he would still most likely be buried on the bench just because of his age. We seen 1st hand how playing a rookie minutes speeds up development or helps them play better because they constantly don't have to look behind them and they know they can make mistakes and play through them.

    This is exactly what we did with DeMar and look how he turned out. But the notion that just because Salmons or any other vet should get minutes because they are a vet is stupid this is what happened last year and with Allan Anderson as well. All I'm saying is if it's clear that this vet is playing and he's playing like shit but he still gets minutes just because hes a vet is ridiculous. The players that play well regardless of age or experience should be in the game.

    And I see some posters saying Bruno, Ross, and Jonas all have to prove that they should get minutes and I agree but when the guy ahead of them on the depth chart is playing terrible and he still gets his minutes while the younger players don't play how is that setting a good example? We all know Casey loves his vets regardless is they play good or bad. So why do the young guys have to prove they should play but the vets get a free pass?

    Also why even over play vets when you know they're not the long term solution? It's not like we're contenders so we need our younger guys to develop and lead this team like DeMar
    Exactly.

    But they are very close to being contenders, I think.

    Wouldn't it be better to have Bruno ready to roll at NBA speed?
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Mr.Z's Avatar
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    For the sake of speeding things along because I do believe Bruno is going to be a two-way monster when he hits his prime I agree that he should get some burn this season and I'm not even talking garbage minutes. If Casey plays him at all this season on a semi-regular basis I hope he puts him out there with the best group possible. I want to see him next to Lowry and Demar, so he can learn and play with/against the best. It could only be for 2/3 minutes at a time but it could help him/us a lot in the long run.
    "You clearly don't know who you're talking to, so let me clue you in: I am not in danger, Skyler. I am the danger. A guy opens his door and gets shot, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

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  21. #1074
    Raptors Republic Rookie 5upercharged's Avatar
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    BRUNOOOOO!!!!!!!

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote 5upercharged wrote: View Post



    BRUNOOOOO!!!!!!!
    Sweeet!!!

    Don't care how he does.

    All about experience.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    The thing that makes this tough on fans is that we don't know what happens in practise. I could easily see the likes of DD, JJ, Fields and even J Ham just bodying Bruno all practise long. I can also see Bruno blocking and changing a lot of their shots as well. The thing is we don't which one is more consistent. Most likely first option is more consistent.
    @Chr1st1anL

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    Last edited by Rapzilla; Sat Oct 18th, 2014 at 03:32 PM.

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  27. #1078
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    This is a pretty cool conversation you guys are having. I would just point out that you guys are comparing Casey to Pop, but Pop has also sent players to the DLeague to develop. For example, the PG from Toronto on his roster. The advantage he has is that their DLeague team is owned by the Spurs. It is a significant advantage. They can run similar sets, give preferential playing time to draft picks, etc.

    Also, Parker was already starting in France on a regular basis, Bruno had only recently made his team's senior side when he was drafted. And Kahwi may have been a power forward in college, but he was coached by one of the best all-time coaches in Coach Fischer. You can't compare what Bruno was getting to what Leanord was getting as far as a fundamental base.

    A player at his level (Using Summer League for this assessment), at his age, in any league around the world would be on a bench. The Raps share their DLeague team with almost half the league! He won't get play time there. In Europe, where they value experience and maturity -- he'd get great coaching in the right leagues but he would be a bench player anywhere higher than the 3rd division. In Australia, (where they sent Daniels) he would most likely come off the bench, etc. So why not have him ride a bench in the NBA? He already looks improved from Summer League.

    If the Raptors were not aiming to win their division I would be solidly behind giving him minutes. The East has strengthened but they probably could get a 6-8 seed, and give him minutes. But they're not just developing Bruno. Ross and Val deserve to develop in an environment where every game counts.

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