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Thread: Everything Bruno Caboclo

  1. #1101
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    They were also one of the worst close-game teams in crunch time. So there's that too.
    I dunno, nba.com has them as 9th best performance in crunch time.

    http://stats.nba.com/leagueTeamClutc...&sortOrder=DES
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

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  2. #1102
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    I would argue a lot of our success in 4th quarters was because Amir-2Pat-DeMar-Lowry (I'd guess our most frequent combo late in games) formed a really strong unit. The best we could usually hope from Salmons was that he would at least play some D and not do terrible things on O. And without real evidence, I also feel like as the season wore on, Greivis would supplant Salmons fairly often, giving us a very strong offensive unit with only one really weak defensive player.
    Maybe, maybe not.

    But that's not really much to go on to say that accountability within the team is an issue.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

  3. #1103
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I dunno, nba.com has them as 9th best performance in crunch time.

    http://stats.nba.com/leagueTeamClutc...&sortOrder=DES
    That is flawed though. You're ranking by +/-, which in no way helps describe what happens situationally, nor does it represent results. In the end, the best stat for performance is the most basic, Ws and Ls.

    The Raptors were a very good fourth-quarter team a year ago, outscoring opponents by 195 points in that final frame, easily the biggest edge they had in any quarter. But when it came to close games, the Raptors were vulnerable. In game decided by five points or less the Raptors were 7-14. In games decided by three or less they were 3-8. In seven overtime games, the Raptors managed just one win against six losses.
    http://www.torontosun.com/2014/10/16...in-crunch-time

    Those are horrible numbers for a team that won 48 games (and outpaced that post-trade). They did some good things late in games (especially defensively), but were an awful offensive team, and clearly had issues finding ways to win tight games.

    *It's definitely hard to tell what impact exactly the juggling of vets vs. kids had on this, but watching enough games there were more than a few situations where the vet clearly failed in exactly the role Casey trusted him to fill because he's a vet. This can be more a problem of actual talent available, or just a coach not doing good enough with the xs and os to make things easy (or players really failing miserably to execute a decent plan). However it was certainly extremely frustrating having to watch a vet fail way too many times while a youngster gets far fewer chances.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Oct 21st, 2014 at 06:53 PM.

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  5. #1104
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    This label is based on years of observations going back to his time in Minnesota. And you are the one coloring it with your own perceptions, by suggesting his critics think it's an "infantile" bias and that he is being tagged "a fool".

    I like Casey in general. I don't think he's a fool at all. My only problem with the way he develops kids is that he is far too focused on short term results over long term ones.

    Every time he avoided playing JV in the fourth quarter just pushed back the timetable for when JV would be ready for those situations. Giving opportunities to journeyman vets in situations where we were clearly rebuilding simply devalues the time we have young players under contract.

    And there are confidence issues too. Casey's short leash can have a significant impact on players' confidence; young guys are so worried about making mistakes that they overthink the game and lose their natural flow.

    http://m.espn.go.com/general/blogs/b...51&src=desktop

    Saying that critics of Casey are calling him infantile/a fool is an oversimplistic straw man.
    "Saying that critics of Casey are calling him infantile/a fool is an oversimplistic straw man."

    Not at all. No straw men present. That terminology is simply my summarization and characterization of the oft repeated rhetoric surrounding Casey's handling of the kids. Some of the "opinions" has been repeated so often, even as certainty, by various posters that it has become reality to some.

    However, you do provide some fine examples of what I speak. I would venture to say you speak to an awful lot of certainty of subjects you know nothing about: coach's short-term vs long-term priorities, devaluing young players under contract (yeah, while starting the only 2 sophs starting in the playoffs), young players' confidence and psyche (who you know from TV and he deals with in person every day).

    Hey, if that's what turns your crank, carry on, but it is a public forum and you may encounter the odd poster that will question your declarations, based on your scant information and expertise that you seem to think is far greater than reality.


    Quote MixxAOR wrote: View Post


    SVG talking about player development at 30:45
    Thank you for that. According to many posters, not only does Casey not get it, but SVG doesn't know what he's talking about either. We got some brilliant basketball minds around, but they're not employed in the NBA.

    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Now I'm just going off of complete speculation here, but it's possible that the mistakes that receive the most punishment are the ones related to discipline and focus.

    So lazy defense or careless dribbling or passing might deserve a pull, but missing a smart shot might not.
    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Well, I'm not sure if this caused it, but the Raptors were one of the best fourth quarter teams in the league last year, weren't they?

    So if that has anything to do with Casey's coaching then the rest of the argument doesn't really apply.
    Yes. So many still hung up on Salmons terrible shooting down the stretch, but it was his DEFENSE that got him 4th quarter minutes. Defense that TRoss wasn't providing, perhaps lacking the focus that was the minimum standard set for him? He'll learn a lot more from that than rewarding him with playing time he didn't earn. Who cares whether Salmons was being held to the same standard? He was going to be gone, while Ross is being developed for the future. And let's not pretend Ross is too dumb to understand the distinction.

  6. #1105
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Maybe, maybe not.

    But that's not really much to go on to say that accountability within the team is an issue.
    I honestly think a lot of that is management doing an excellent job (even going back to BC) in gauging character. Raps have not had a lot of inflated egos or boneheads in their locker room. And I did give credit to Casey for his "relationship" skills, which definitely helps, as guys still trust him despite the times when maybe they'd want more minutes. Again, I'm more worried it will affect the player's own self-confidence rather than have a truly corrosive impact on team chemistry.

  7. #1106
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I dunno, nba.com has them as 9th best performance in crunch time.

    http://stats.nba.com/leagueTeamClutc...&sortOrder=DES
    And just to offer a different perspective using a within-team clutch ranking...I still don't like +/- very much, but here you go.

    http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClu...&sortOrder=DES

    The way this list looks would seem to support more the "talent helps you win" angle over "vets help you win".

    In case the link fails or anyone's just plain lazy, the basic +/- ranking in clutch for the Raps:
    -Greivis (1.7)
    -Jonas (1.6)
    -Amir (1.4)
    -DeMar (0.9)
    -Lowry (0.7)
    -Ross (0.6)
    -Patterson (0.4)
    -Novak (0.0)
    -Nando (-0.3)
    -Salmons (-0.9)
    -Fields (-1.3)
    -Hayes (-1.6)
    -Hansbrough (-2.5)
    -Buycks (-5.5)
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Tue Oct 21st, 2014 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #1107
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    The issue isn't just development, it's accountability. It does not send a good message to give some guys a longer leash than others just because of random factors like age or talent. Why should a star player not be held accountable? Why should a vet not be held accountable? With the Raps the frustration has been especially with the latter issue.

    It's nice in theory to say that since a guy is a vet, you want to use him in crunch time because you expect him to make less mistakes than a youngster. However if that vet has repeatedly proven that he's both ineffective, and far more mistake-prone than a "good" vet should be, why not bench his ass and at least let the young guy get some experience?

    This is why a lot of us keep coming back to Salmons. A vet who wasn't in future plans, and for the last 2+ months of the season was arguably the worst player getting floor time on our whole team....But he still found himself in the game so often in the 4th quarter. Who did it benefit? Certainly not the team when he's making awful decisions and unable to produce on either end. At least playing a youngster like Ross would have the chance of accelerating development in those situations (even if it doesn't, at least there's the chance).

    It also sends a bad message that can damage the kid's confidence, or possibly even trust in his coach (I think Casey is good with relationships though, so the first worries me more) if someone clearly worse is getting minutes. I had a lot less problems with late-game situations where Casey would roll out DeMar, GV and Lowry, as at least those guys all provided value on the court. The message is pretty firmly "you're not gonna play until you can do better than one of these guys", which is the right kind of standard to set, as opposed to have a guy think it's just randomly because he's young and there's nothing he can do about it.
    +100000

    This is exactly why a lot of us are frustrated with the development. We're not saying play a young guy 35min per game but to give him a shorter leash just because of age is ridiculous

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    You guys have to think of what Casey holds players accountable for. If I had to guess its D. If that's the case than him playing his vets over the young guys is fair.
    @Chr1st1anL

  10. #1109
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    You guys have to think of what Casey holds players accountable for. If I had to guess its D. If that's the case than him playing his vets over the young guys is fair.
    Well, D is hard to measure, and there's certainly no stat I like very much, but using nba's stats page and sorting for DRTG in the clutch, the evidence isn't very good in that respect.

    http://stats.nba.com/leaguePlayerClu...erMode=PerGame

    Again:
    -Greivis (86.1)
    -Jonas (88.8)
    -Pat (95.3)
    -Amir (95.9)
    -DeMar (95.9)
    -Lowry (97.1)
    -Ross (100.0)
    -Salmons (106.8)
    -Fields (108.7)
    -Hansbrough (116.3)
    -Hayes (118.8)
    -Nando (119.3)
    -Novak (132.5)
    -Buycks (137.6)

  11. #1110
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    Casey dropped Salmons minutes every month.

    Dec. - 26.5 min
    Jan. - 23 min
    Feb. - 22 min
    March - 17.4 min
    April - 18.7 min
    Playoffs - 12.8 min

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  13. #1111
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    NBA coaches, and their teams of coaches, are looking at a lot more than stats that don't measure well. Maybe they even have specific methods/techniques, within a team defensive system, that players need to comply with, else they fk up the other four players learning the system. I don't know. Just a suggestion about 1 thing that we all no fk all about, rendering much fan certainty, that we're discussing, ill-informed .........

    Casey is screwing up the confidence and development of the kids, haha. And SVG is a fool too, hey.

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  15. #1112
    Raptors Republic Veteran MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    NBA coaches, and their teams of coaches, are looking at a lot more than stats that don't measure well. Maybe they even have specific methods/techniques, within a team defensive system, that players need to comply with, else they fk up the other four players learning the system. I don't know. Just a suggestion about 1 thing that we all no fk all about, rendering much fan certainty, that we're discussing, ill-informed .........

    Casey is screwing up the confidence and development of the kids, haha. And SVG is a fool too, hey.
    Everything you post is condescending and arrogant is this how you normally converse with others out side of the Internet?

  16. #1113
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    Quote MixxAOR wrote: View Post
    Casey dropped Salmons minutes every month.

    Dec. - 26.5 min
    Jan. - 23 min
    Feb. - 22 min
    March - 17.4 min
    April - 18.7 min
    Playoffs - 12.8 min
    This.

    Can someone please explain to me which young prospect was being benched last year in favour of an undeserving vet?

    Ross played a hair under 30mpg after the Gay trade. Which wing prospect was riding pine in favour of Salmons?

  17. #1114
    Raptors Republic All-Star Yabadabayolo's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    The issue isn't just development, it's accountability. It does not send a good message to give some guys a longer leash than others just because of random factors like age or talent. Why should a star player not be held accountable? Why should a vet not be held accountable? With the Raps the frustration has been especially with the latter issue.
    Easy answer. You want the youngster to realize his mistake and improve from it. Teaches them not to make that mistake again. Who cares if the vet makes a mistake, your not going to try and teach them a lesson, they aren't in your future and basically, they are what they are. You can mould a young player to who you need them to be.

    If you don't keep the younger player on a short leash, how do they know they fucked up. Sure you could tell them after, but what's their incentive if they know they'll just continue getting playing time even if they keep fucking up.

    This is where a players mentality comes in, if they are always striving to be the best and always working hard, you leave them in there to learn (demar) but if they seem to just not care, they need to get pulled or they learn bad habits and are just utter shit. (Bargnani) if bargs was pulled out whenever he did that stupid pump drive get injured thing, he would stop doing it and learn from it. Instead he was left out there and continued doing, look where he at now.

    I have no problem with how Casey handled ross and Jv. Jv seemed immature and needed the constant pull so he'd stop getting frustrated. Ross seemed really chill and laid back about everything, made since to make him earn his playing time.
    In Swag we Trust

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    I feel like DeMar would be a better player right now if he had a shorter leash during his 2nd-4th years when it came to making defensive mistakes or even for taking ill-advised shots.

  19. #1116
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    Quote Yabadabayolo wrote: View Post
    Easy answer. You want the youngster to realize his mistake and improve from it. Teaches them not to make that mistake again. Who cares if the vet makes a mistake, your not going to try and teach them a lesson, they aren't in your future and basically, they are what they are. You can mould a young player to who you need them to be.

    If you don't keep the younger player on a short leash, how do they know they fucked up. Sure you could tell them after, but what's their incentive if they know they'll just continue getting playing time even if they keep fucking up.

    This is where a players mentality comes in, if they are always striving to be the best and always working hard, you leave them in there to learn (demar) but if they seem to just not care, they need to get pulled or they learn bad habits and are just utter shit. (Bargnani) if bargs was pulled out whenever he did that stupid pump drive get injured thing, he would stop doing it and learn from it. Instead he was left out there and continued doing, look where he at now.

    I have no problem with how Casey handled ross and Jv. Jv seemed immature and needed the constant pull so he'd stop getting frustrated. Ross seemed really chill and laid back about everything, made since to make him earn his playing time.
    Fair points, especially the bold, but that's still not the consistent way in which their subs were managed. While maybe not the most frequent case, there were also games where a young guy would be playing great, and still see very limited (or no) action later in the game regardless.

    That's where it gets trickiest. It's one thing to punish for mistakes...but then shouldn't you also reward success? And getting back to the vet thing, why would you ever play an ineffective vet over a youngster playing well? Is that teaching anybody anything?

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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    Everything you post is condescending and arrogant is this how you normally converse with others out side of the Internet?
    That's getting rather personal, young man, and it's no help to the debate, using hyperbolic "everything you post" melodrama.

    After not saying anything personal or insulting at all in this discussion, I wasn't using offensive labels like "arrogance" to anyone here, but if you're turning the discussion in that direction, I'd suggest that it might be a tad more arrogant to assume you know near enough to critique coach's player development actions as foolish, than it is for me to suggest you know next to sfa, just like me.

    As far as your "condescending" complaint, I'd like to say I'm sorry if a minor bit of snark, used as colour when the point wasn't being addressed otherwise, hurt your sensibilities, but I really don't think I said anything particularly offensive to anyone, unless someone takes offense at being told they don't know what they don't know.

    btw, if you don't respect Casey's approach, what little you actually know of it, do you respect what SVG said, about player development, in that vid posted earlier? Is he wrong too? Because what I'm questioning here is the exact stuff that he says is poppcock. I happen to agree with his philosphy toward player development, which seems to fall in line with Casey's. Of course that's in general terms, as I know sfa about how he actually implements it on a daily basis. I accept that and try to move on to analyzing stuff I have some knowledge of. (like ill informed posts I find on here, haha. sick humour, sorry)

  21. #1118
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    So much to like with this conversation. Especially the SVG video Mix posted. That should be required watching of anyone who wants to write, coach, play basketball...

    We have no clue about practices so my guess is that has to also be a part of figuring out how much to play a young player as part of their development?

    There's a lot to dislike about Casey's coaching, but I feel confident in the way he develops players. Every player the Raps have drafted since he's been head coach is still in the league -- VERY small window, but the Raps coaches have not exactly had the greatest record with that sort of thing. I know there's a lot of holes in my argument, but, his moves make sense. When he benches a young player, you can go back and see what the player was doing wrong most of the time.

    Most importantly, I like where Ross, Val, and to a lesser extent Quincy Acy are as players -- they know their roles and they're all solid pros who should last in the league barring injury.

    Casey's issues are not in development, they're in calling plays after timeouts. Too many isolations. The same out of bounds plays, again and again. When in doubt, Casey regresses to high school plays. He needs to do a better job stealing plays from other teams, past coaches, etc. If he had a wider variance of plays coming out of timeouts, maybe the Raps would win more close games. I don't think it has anything to do with clutch, and everything to do with a lack of variety in sets coming out of timeouts.

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  23. #1119
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    we need to forget about KD thing.
    The thankful receiver bears a plentiful harvest.

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