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Thread: Questions for the RaptorsRepulicans

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Default Questions for the RaptorsRepulicans

    I tried to get this started a while back but seems even more prevalent now after the BKD Draft.

    The Popovich System beat the 'Call all your all-star buddies and tell them to meet you in south beach' System. The triangle is going to be brought back and Puppeteered by the zen Master. I dare McHale to bring in the 3s and Dunks System.

    Can the Raptors run something?

    Does Casey have that in his book?

    I mean I like the idea of his Junior vs Varsity practices. Now that GV is healthier he might push lowry harder, but DD vs Ross, BKD vs Fields, JV needs Aaron Gray back: its haptic feedback. When someone at or near your level and position are keeping the reps honest and impactful experience happens. Muscle memory grows and execution is sharper.

    But does a defined system actually make the difference? Like can we just run the princeton prep offence with pat being the pick and pop guy then swap in amir to glue or slip? Plug and play Ross for scoring BKD for def?

    Or is it all in my armchair coach head?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    sorry but wtf are you asking???

    is casey as good as pop? no.
    does a 'defined system' make a difference? for the spurs, obviously it did.

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    Doesn't the Raps have a system built around horns? Am I missing something here?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Yeah I'm talking about an actually system the Raps run regardless of players brought in.

    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Doesn't the Raps have a system built around horns? Am I missing something here?
    Nick Nurse built around Horns because of our pieces. The Raptors implemented it to take advantage of Demar and Amir's chemistry in a 2 man gambit. Among other things(e.g. Lowry's outside shooting). If the Raps find the continuity Masai has been preaching this off-season. We will have known quantities coming back.

    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    sorry but wtf are you asking???

    is casey as good as pop? no.
    does a 'defined system' make a difference? for the spurs, obviously it did.
    I'm not picking apart Casey or his coaches I'm wondering if we switch gears. Normally offensive and defensive sets are born from our teams' competencies. I'm positing its time we build our sets from data/theory/notions of where the NBA is and what teams are giving up. Then coach to it.

    Watching the finals and 1984 draft class doc, it seems like the teams having success are running less sets that can be scouted and prepared for. Rick Carlyle was talking about flow, winning his Celtic championship in his playing career then using it to beat Miami in 2011. Pop has interchangeable parts that allow him to run his stars 30 minutes a game and have the Belinelli's, Patty Mills, Splitters of the world contribute heavily to 60 win seasons.

    Aside from bringing in generational talents and free agency, getting the most out of your talent is major facet of success. I'm asking if the Raptors shift perceptions and try something new(to them at least).

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    Nurse did not bring in horns. The problem was that the Raps had 2 isolation heavy guys: Gay and Bargnani who broke the rhythm of the system. Notice that as soon as they moved their was more movement? Even DeMar at least attempts to make plays within the system.

    As soon as Casey was brought in, the implementation of a system began. Remember pound the rock? The team is trying to build a defensive and offensive philosophy. It may not be as visible as it should, but that's tied to the team's slow growth.

    Again, I'm not quite sure what you want from these guys. The Raps are not a complete team, or a perfected core. They have been implementing a system for only 3 seasons. They only recently brought in a GM capable of working in step with the head coach: which is the hallmark of all the teams that you're talking about.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Nurse did not bring in horns. The problem was that the Raps had 2 isolation heavy guys: Gay and Bargnani who broke the rhythm of the system. Notice that as soon as they moved their was more movement? Even DeMar at least attempts to make plays within the system.
    This is true. But the improved ball movement stemmed not just from better decisions made by the players who replaced Gay and Bargs, but mostly because KL/GV handled the ball more and made better decisions with the ball.

    If we're seeing anything with the Masai era, it is the experiment of long and athletic players/ball handlers. Julian Stone, GV, Nando, Daye (RIP), and now Cabolco. I don't think the plays have evolved to suit these players as much as those players have adopted the style of offence/defence preached by the coaches.

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    Quote TheTyrant wrote: View Post
    This is true. But the improved ball movement stemmed not just from better decisions made by the players who replaced Gay and Bargs, but mostly because KL/GV handled the ball more and made better decisions with the ball.

    If we're seeing anything with the Masai era, it is the experiment of long and athletic players/ball handlers. Julian Stone, GV, Nando, Daye (RIP), and now Cabolco. I don't think the plays have evolved to suit these players as much as those players have adopted the style of offence/defence preached by the coaches.
    I've had a few drinks, so let's see how well I can communicate my thoughts. The bold is where most fans, and a large amount of executives make a mistake. The role of the GM is to recruit, draft, etc., players that fit the the system that the coach wishes to implement. Most GMs fail to realize this and end up fired.

    The first thing a GM should do is conference with the coach and see if they are willing to bring in players that fit the coach's system. Looking at the players and assuming that Masai is bringing in these guys independent of Casey is a mistake. It is more likely that Casey wants long players that share the ball and Masai agrees with the philosophy than Masai is bringing in guys who are subservient to Casey's philosophy.

    It's a small nuance, but I feel it has to be mentioned.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer MACK11's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    I've had a few drinks, so let's see how well I can communicate my thoughts. The bold is where most fans, and a large amount of executives make a mistake. The role of the GM is to recruit, draft, etc., players that fit the the system that the coach wishes to implement. Most GMs fail to realize this and end up fired.

    The first thing a GM should do is conference with the coach and see if they are willing to bring in players that fit the coach's system. Looking at the players and assuming that Masai is bringing in these guys independent of Casey is a mistake. It is more likely that Casey wants long players that share the ball and Masai agrees with the philosophy than Masai is bringing in guys who are subservient to Casey's philosophy.

    It's a small nuance, but I feel it has to be mentioned.
    Well Bruno, DD2, Bebe all fit the bill
    Bring back the physical game and send the softies home.

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    You definitely, want a system and your want to bring players in that match/can play in that system. One of the best examples of this is the Spurs, they look for guys who have the skills they want, and ask them to do the things they already do, they don't ask them to suddenly get better at things they haven't demonstrated that they can do.

    THAT SAID, the core of the Spurs, have gone through an evolution in the way the play. If you compare the mid-2000s era Spurs to now, the teams are completely different on offense.

    I guess the lesson might be that if players are good enough then you adapt to what works best around them (running through Duncan until he got old, then shifting the offense away from him) and/or ask them to adapt to a system that's better based on trends in the NBA (Spurs switching to a D'Antoni style offense).

    BUT for role players, you get the guys who already are good at the things you want. You don't ask a role player to develop a skill they don't already have.
    "They're going to have to rename the whole conference after us: Toronto Raptors 2014-2015 Northern Conference Champions" ~ ezzbee

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Nurse did not bring in horns. The problem was that the Raps had 2 isolation heavy guys: Gay and Bargnani who broke the rhythm of the system. Notice that as soon as they moved their was more movement? Even DeMar at least attempts to make plays within the system.

    As soon as Casey was brought in, the implementation of a system began. Remember pound the rock? The team is trying to build a defensive and offensive philosophy. It may not be as visible as it should, but that's tied to the team's slow growth.

    Again, I'm not quite sure what you want from these guys. The Raps are not a complete team, or a perfected core. They have been implementing a system for only 3 seasons. They only recently brought in a GM capable of working in step with the head coach: which is the hallmark of all the teams that you're talking about.
    I thought horns came in with Nick. And really post-gay the system started to shift after we had an idea of what we got back in the trade.

    But again, I'm not tearing down what we've done, just think if we keep our pieces we should expect a system that takes advantage of all this new found length.

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    The system which the Raptors played after the Gay trade was a great example of something I'd like to see long-term under Casey. I just don't know how much of it was planned by Casey and how much was just pure fluke. Given the lack of stars on the Raptors, they're forced to make the whole become greater than the sum of the parts. Some things I'd like to see in a Raptors 'system':

    1. No defined ball-handler - 1/2/3 should be able to bring the ball up-court and initiate a play
    2. Have shorter plays so that you can run more than one in a possession - if one fails completely, have something that can be run in 5 seconds
    3. Wings who are good passers - sound so simple but so rare. I'm talking passing in pick 'n roll, skip passes across the floor, driving and dumps to big men, drive and kick back to the top of the circle with a defender hanging around - if your wings can do this, the defense is on edge at all times
    4. Movement - again, sound easy enough but hard to do. I'm not expecting traingle-type movement, but at least a system where the defense isn't grown to expect you to occupy a particular are of the court. I think our wings are still too stagnant and lack north-south action. They're OK using baseline screens to cross the court but very poor at presenting themselves on down-screens, cutting to the rim using misdirections etc.
    5. No main scorer - a socialist offense where the threat is likely to come from any number of players. This failed for us in the playoffs.
    6. More interior passing - big-to-big passing is so effective when done right and having some plays where PF/C play in combination would be good
    7. Good three-point shooters that don't compromise transition defense. Parking in the corner and opening up the court is good, but you have to be able to track back in transition (see Danny Green)
    8. Good post-passing - this is key, we need to be able to switch the ball to a different side using the center far more often than we do
    9. Long wing players that can disrupt passing lanes - really feel we're lacking this right now. Maybe Terrence Ross can become this, I doubt it, though
    10. Rim-defense: Not necessarily shot-blocking, but guys who can slide over to do the trick on defense. I thought the Raptors were pretty good at this last year, more of the same, please

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    4. Movement - again, sound easy enough but hard to do. I'm not expecting traingle-type movement, but at least a system where the defense isn't grown to expect you to occupy a particular are of the court. I think our wings are still too stagnant and lack north-south action. They're OK using baseline screens to cross the court but very poor at presenting themselves on down-screens, cutting to the rim using misdirections etc.
    This is the key in half-court sets. It is so frustrating to see a wing just standing on the weak side allowing his defender to help and sag. Of the current Raptors, Fields is the best at moving on the weak side - sometimes looking to receive a pass, but often just creating opportunities for his teammates. Watching movement based offenses is so much more entertaining to walk than iso-sets.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    The system which the Raptors played after the Gay trade was a great example of something I'd like to see long-term under Casey. I just don't know how much of it was planned by Casey and how much was just pure fluke. Given the lack of stars on the Raptors, they're forced to make the whole become greater than the sum of the parts. Some things I'd like to see in a Raptors 'system':

    1. No defined ball-handler - 1/2/3 should be able to bring the ball up-court and initiate a play
    2. Have shorter plays so that you can run more than one in a possession - if one fails completely, have something that can be run in 5 seconds
    3. Wings who are good passers - sound so simple but so rare. I'm talking passing in pick 'n roll, skip passes across the floor, driving and dumps to big men, drive and kick back to the top of the circle with a defender hanging around - if your wings can do this, the defense is on edge at all times
    4. Movement - again, sound easy enough but hard to do. I'm not expecting traingle-type movement, but at least a system where the defense isn't grown to expect you to occupy a particular are of the court. I think our wings are still too stagnant and lack north-south action. They're OK using baseline screens to cross the court but very poor at presenting themselves on down-screens, cutting to the rim using misdirections etc.
    5. No main scorer - a socialist offense where the threat is likely to come from any number of players. This failed for us in the playoffs.
    6. More interior passing - big-to-big passing is so effective when done right and having some plays where PF/C play in combination would be good
    7. Good three-point shooters that don't compromise transition defense. Parking in the corner and opening up the court is good, but you have to be able to track back in transition (see Danny Green)
    8. Good post-passing - this is key, we need to be able to switch the ball to a different side using the center far more often than we do
    9. Long wing players that can disrupt passing lanes - really feel we're lacking this right now. Maybe Terrence Ross can become this, I doubt it, though
    10. Rim-defense: Not necessarily shot-blocking, but guys who can slide over to do the trick on defense. I thought the Raptors were pretty good at this last year, more of the same, please
    About half of these can be improved by developing JV and a system to use him more effectively. And they probably have the systems and plays already, but Casey loses confidence so quickly.

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Quote golden wrote: View Post
    About half of these can be improved by developing JV and a system to use him more effectively. And they probably have the systems and plays already, but Casey loses confidence so quickly.
    this

    and to arsenalists point our pieces are maturing

    ross may not be there yet but we'll need to run something for jv this year, at least the ball thru his hands

    if we keep looking to pick and dump for him he wont be effective

    if dd keeps looking for the short corner pnr 2 man with amir all year we'll be shut down again in the playoffs

    like arsen said big to big passes, pnr guards that can swing out of the recovery or skip to the open man, lowry driving and kicking(taking stress of his frame)

    things that put wrinkles in the defence's ideas that open the goto spots late in games

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