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Thread: Official: Salmons & '15 2nd round pick to Hawks for Williams & Nogueira

  1. #261
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    For the record:

    1. Lou Williams isn't who he used to be and it's questionable whether he'll ever be the player he was in 2012 ever again. ACL tears can be a bitch that way.

    2. Bebe has knee problems, and for a center knee problems are one of the three things you don't want to hear about (foot and back are the other two). There is some question if he can ever be a starting center because of those knee issues. That's why Atlanta was willing to deal him.

    3. That said, it's still a good trade for Toronto, because if one of Williams or Bebe finds his form or overcomes their nagging injury issues, we basically got an additional asset for nothing (since we were going to waive Salmons regardless). It's just not the mega-steal people are making it out to be.

    4. Finally, trading Bebe for Ennis would be the definition of a no-brainer. Bebe was a mid-round big man pick in a bad year; Ennis was lottery-level talent in a good year. If that trade becomes available, you make it and you don't think twice.

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  3. #262
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    Quote magoon wrote: View Post
    For the record:

    1. Lou Williams isn't who he used to be and it's questionable whether he'll ever be the player he was in 2012 ever again. ACL tears can be a bitch that way.

    2. Bebe has knee problems, and for a center knee problems are one of the three things you don't want to hear about (foot and back are the other two). There is some question if he can ever be a starting center because of those knee issues. That's why Atlanta was willing to deal him.

    3. That said, it's still a good trade for Toronto, because if one of Williams or Bebe finds his form or overcomes their nagging injury issues, we basically got an additional asset for nothing (since we were going to waive Salmons regardless). It's just not the mega-steal people are making it out to be.

    4. Finally, trading Bebe for Ennis would be the definition of a no-brainer. Bebe was a mid-round big man pick in a bad year; Ennis was lottery-level talent in a good year. If that trade becomes available, you make it and you don't think twice.
    Considering his knee issues, lack of noticeable improvement since last year, character / work ethic questions and just getting a year older, Nogueira is probably a mid 2nd rounder this year.

    He's a nice buy-low prospect. He still has physical gifts and he might reach his upside. But yep, Ennis seems a much more valuable asset.

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    Quote MACK11 wrote: View Post
    Yeah I have no idea how John salmons could get us Lou Williams and a 7foot shot blocking prospect!

    Masai is something else LMAO
    When teams are trying to clear cap space, take advantage. That's what Masai did here. With the Lowry situation looming and the Ennis situation not coming to fruition, this seems to make up for some blemishes in the past couple weeks.

    I'm a huge fan of this trade, also because Bebe AND Bruno WILL be playing next season, considering both are looking for buyouts and play next season.

    For what we currently have:

    PG: Lowry/Vasquez/De Colo (this whole point guard sitch is weird)
    SG: DeRozan/Williams/Fields
    SF: Ross/Caboclo/Daniels
    PF: Johnson/Patterson/Hansbrough
    C: Valanciunas/Nogueira/Hayes

    I expect Fields and Hayes to get dealt at some point, and I doubt all three of the PG's are kept, Lowry or no. I do hope quite frankly it's Lowry/Vasquez. Sorry De Coolio.

  5. #264
    Raptors Republic Starter saints91's Avatar
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    Considering his knee issues, lack of noticeable improvement since last year, character / work ethic questions and just getting a year older, Nogueira is probably a mid 2nd rounder this year.

    If you look at his per 40 numbers they aren't too shabby. 15 pts, 10 rbs., 3.78 blks, with a .703 FG% and a 677 FT% (that can be improved). Not too bad for the spanish league. It really could go either way with the NBA style game though.
    Last edited by saints91; Mon Jun 30th, 2014 at 02:27 PM.

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    Just want to say that I love this trade. I really thought there was a good chance that we'd just cut Salmons loose and use the savings for free agency/cap space. However, Masai just keeps finding ways to get talent/something from scrap/nothing. We essentially got the 16th pick in the 2013 draft and a serviceable player in Lou Williams for JOHN SALMONS

    Let me pretend to be Masai for a little bit......

    If we lose Lowry, I would immediately call up OKC and see what it would take to get Reggie Jackson.

    Regarding Ennis..... maybe a deal can still get done with Phoenix, but i'm fine either way. Just like Wiggins, we can continue to improve our team and maybe we can get them to come home after they become free agents.
    Last edited by special1; Mon Jun 30th, 2014 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #266
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    The reason I'm optimistic about Noguiera is because he was touted in pre-draft scouting as a solid pick-and-roll finisher (and defender), and apparently he and Schroeder ran some good P&Rs in summer league last year. Assuming we keep our free agents, a second unit of Vasquez, Williams, Fields/Bruno, Patterson, and Noguiera can run essentially the same offence as a starting unit of Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Johnson, and Valanciunas, and you can switch players much more easily between the two units. You couldn't really say that last year with Hayes, Hansbrough, and Salmons occupying prominent positions on the second unit.
    tank-agnostic

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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    The reason I'm optimistic about Noguiera is because he was touted in pre-draft scouting as a solid pick-and-roll finisher (and defender), and apparently he and Schroeder ran some good P&Rs in summer league last year. Assuming we keep our free agents, a second unit of Vasquez, Williams, Fields/Bruno, Patterson, and Noguiera can run essentially the same offence as a starting unit of Lowry, DeRozan, Ross, Johnson, and Valanciunas, and you can switch players much more easily between the two units. You couldn't really say that last year with Hayes, Hansbrough, and Salmons occupying prominent positions on the second unit.
    He's pretty much Amir

  9. #268
    Raptors Republic All-Star Primer's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Considering his knee issues, lack of noticeable improvement since last year, character / work ethic questions and just getting a year older, Nogueira is probably a mid 2nd rounder this year.

    He's a nice buy-low prospect. He still has physical gifts and he might reach his upside. But yep, Ennis seems a much more valuable asset.
    Where are you getting this shit from? The guy just won defensive player of the year in the second best basketball league in the world. Lack of improvement? So I'm assuming you watched all of Bebe's games the past 2 years to help you form that opinion, or you're just talking out your ass (far more likely).

    I am a Hawks fan as well and this is a fucking steal for Toronto. I watched most of the Hawks summer league games and Bebe is a shot blocking machine. Atlanta is betting the farm on getting Deng or Melo and Masai just took advantage of it, stealing their high upside center prospect (although ATL added another C prospect in the draft which probably made them more amenable to dealing Bebe).

    Also, Lou Williams is a huge upgrade over Salmons. Even post-ACL he has an above average TS% of .547 and he is a better defender than Salmons too. Add in the fact that he can run the point if you need him to and the trade looks even better. We were desperately thin at SG and needed bench scoring, Williams helps with both of those.

    If Lowry comes back Vasquez is gone for sure, so that should alleviate people's salary concerns. Bringing back Tyler also gives us insurance in case PPat gets a big offer we don't wanna match. Why some of you insist on poo-pooing everything Raptors related is beyond me. This trade was a huge huge win. Quit being a curmudgeon and celebrate for once.
    Last edited by Primer; Mon Jun 30th, 2014 at 04:01 PM.

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  11. #269
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Where are you getting this shit from? The guy just won defensive player of the year in the second best basketball league in the world. Lack of improvement? So I'm assuming you watched all of Bebe's games the past 2 years to help you form that opinion, or you're just talking out your ass (far more likely).

    I am a Hawks fan as well and this is a fucking steal for Toronto. I watched most of the Hawks summer league games and Bebe is a shot blocking machine. Atlanta is betting the farm on getting Deng or Melo and Masai just took advantage of it, stealing their high upside center prospect (although ATL added another C prospect in the draft which probably made them more amenable to dealing Bebe).
    Haters gotta hate.

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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    He's pretty much Amir
    That's something I really noticed in the vids - he's got that awkward, tippy toe approach around the rim and on offensive boards, where he'll contort his body and almost volleys the ball back in - just like Amir.

  13. #271
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    That's something I really noticed in the vids - he's got that awkward, tippy toe approach around the rim and on offensive boards, where he'll contort his body and almost volleys the ball back in - just like Amir.
    And his rebounding numbers are distorted because he doesn't grab the ball but he tips it to a player that can.

  14. #272
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    He's pretty much Amir
    Amir being 7'0' tall with a 7'6' wingspan
    @Chr1st1anL

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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    Amir being 7'0' tall with a 7'6' wingspan
    Same lack of strength. Does other things really well. Bebe is a PF not a center.

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    Masai is a master mind! I Know it, you know it, we all know it.

  17. #275
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    He's pretty much Amir
    Does bebe have good touch like Amir does?
    I think Amir has a pretty good touch around the basket and with the ball
    Problem is, Amir really lacks foot work and body is really imbalanced when he drives

    Does Bebe have a good touch like Amir does? Like is he good at scoring without dunking?
    What would you say about his footwork?

  18. #276
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    you people drive me nuts sometimes.

    This is win PERIOD.

    1.) Lou Williams will be rounding into form this season...look at the timeline for anyone recovering from ACL surgery.
    2.) If for some reason he goes back to his old self...well then we have the following
    a.) valuable trade chip
    b.) bird rights to a 6th man of the year candidate
    3.) If for some reason he regresses his contract has value as
    a.) expiring
    b.) trade ballast
    4.) Bebe has Javale McGee like wingspan and a high motor
    5.) Bebe would most assuredly be a 1st round pick this year (probably in the 20s instead of the teens)
    6.) At worst he would be an early 2nd rounder (30 - 35)
    7.) Tendinitis is a very treatable knee injury. He hasn't blown an ACL or anything.
    8.) Bebe along with Bruno have all the resources and time in the world to develop into what we want them to be.

    If you are trying to find a negative in this trade you need to seek professional help.

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  20. #277
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Where are you getting this shit from? The guy just won defensive player of the year in the second best basketball league in the world. Lack of improvement? So I'm assuming you watched all of Bebe's games the past 2 years to help you form that opinion, or you're just talking out your ass (far more likely).

    I am a Hawks fan as well and this is a fucking steal for Toronto. I watched most of the Hawks summer league games and Bebe is a shot blocking machine. Atlanta is betting the farm on getting Deng or Melo and Masai just took advantage of it, stealing their high upside center prospect (although ATL added another C prospect in the draft which probably made them more amenable to dealing Bebe).

    Also, Lou Williams is a huge upgrade over Salmons. Even post-ACL he has an above average TS% of .547 and he is a better defender than Salmons too. Add in the fact that he can run the point if you need him to and the trade looks even better. We were desperately thin at SG and needed bench scoring, Williams helps with both of those.

    If Lowry comes back Vasquez is gone for sure, so that should alleviate people's salary concerns. Bringing back Tyler also gives us insurance in case PPat gets a big offer we don't wanna match. Why some of you insist on poo-pooing everything Raptors related is beyond me. This trade was a huge huge win. Quit being a curmudgeon and celebrate for once.
    Curmudgeon.

    LOL

  21. #278
    Raptors Republic Superstar Chr1s1anL's Avatar
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    People wondering why ATL would give up Bebe, don't forget they just draft Walter Tavares in second round
    @Chr1st1anL

  22. #279
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    7 million in cap space is of a shit load of value to ATL who if they could add someone like Deng to Millsap and Horford, would be off to the races so to speak

  23. #280
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    People wondering why ATL would give up Bebe, don't forget they just draft Walter Tavares in second round
    But isn`t bebe a better prospect than Tavares? not necessarily in terms of potential but in terms of what he has to offer this year

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