iblastoff wrote:
View Post
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
Did San Antonio Show Us All Something?
Collapse
X
-
I think that if San Antonio's championship taught us anything, it's that from a team-building perspective, flexibility is key. The changes that they made between last season and this, both in players and strategy, were specifically to counter Miami. They've got a lot of different pieces that they can throw in there as counters to different types of teams. Meanwhile, Miami has increasingly lost flexibility over the last couple years, both in terms of roster flexibility and on-court flexibility.
Comment
-
raptors999 wrote: View PostMiami having the Big 3 and nobody else shows its a failed model.
Even OKC overpaying Westbrook with KD leaving glaring roster depth issues is a failed model. The fact that the Cavs are using it as a blueprint with the Irving signing shows its a failed model.
westbrook makes what, an average of 15m a year? thats hardly overpaying for a relatively young point guard whos considered top 5 in the entire league. if lowry making 12m is fair, than westbrooks price is also fair.
not sure what the cavs being a horrible team with horrible management have to do with anything.
Comment
-
raptors999 wrote: View PostIts also the 2 QB problem. If you have 2 Superstars you have none. Have 1 Star pay him 20M and establish he is the star.
Let's not start freaking out here because the Spurs beat the Heat. Multiple stars is still the most likely path to success with few exceptions (Hakeem's Rockets, Dirk's Mavs, Spurs in 2003 etc)
2013: Heat (Wade, Bron, Bosh)
2012: Heat (Wade, Bron, Bosh)
2010: Lakers (Kobe, Pau)
2009: Lakers (Kobe, Pau)
2008: Celtics (KG, Pierce, Allen)
2007: Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili)
2006: Heat (Wade, Shaq)
2005: Spurs (Duncan, Parker, Ginobili)
2004: Pistons (Billups, Hamilton, Sheed, Big Ben)
2002: Lakers (Kobe, Shaq)
2001: Lakers (Kobe, Shaq)
2000: Lakers (Kobe, Shaq)
1999: Spurs (Duncan, Robinson)
1998: Bulls (Jordan, Pippen)
1997: Bulls (Jordan, Pippen)
1996: Bulls (Jordan, Pippen)
1993: Bulls (Jordan, Pippen)
1992: Bulls (Jordan, Pippen)
1991: Bulls (Jordan, Pippen)
1990: Pistons (Isaiah, Dumars)
1989: Pistons (Isaiah, Dumars)
1988: Lakers (Magic, Worthy) ---> Scott and Kareem were basically stars also
1987: Lakers (Magic, Worthy, Kareem)
1986: Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish)
1985: Lakers (Magic, Worthy, Kareem)
1984: Celtics (Bird, McHale, Parish)
1983: Sixers (Erving, Malone)
1982: Lakers (Magic, Kareem)
1981: Celtics (Bird, Parish)
1980: Lakers (Magic, Kareem)
Yeah so let's not start pretending that multiple superstars screws you up lol.Last edited by imanshumpert; Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:15 PM.
Comment
-
I think San Antonio proved the old axiom true: you win as a team.
Yes, a team with a superstar can succeed, especially in the NBA (as compared to the other major sports), but a good 'team' can (and should) be able to beat a lesser team that is top-heavy (talent/salary). San Antonio's championship proves that the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts, when players know (and accept) their roles to complement each other and fit together like a puzzle.
That really is the essence of good team building, regardless of how much money you have to work with. In the NBA it becomes more challenging because there's a salary cap. Over the past decade or so there have been 2 main ways to build a team: option 1 is to get a bunch of players making mid-range money; option 2 is to get a couple players making huge money and fill the roster with min-wage players (ie: LBJ's Cavs). Option 1 is hard to do, since a team needs good overall talent, with there being a positive correlation between talent & salary.
The correlation is why the draft is viewed as the ideal way to kick-start successful and sustainable team building. Not only do you get highly talented players for relatively low salaries, but they are also controllable for many years and can be signed with Bird-rights which allows the team to spend beyond the salary cap. Assembling a team of talented young players, who can grow together on and off the court, is the ideal approach. Other players can be added to the core via free agency or trade, but having the homegrown nucleus is critical. I think this line of thought is why so many people were in favor of rebuilding/tanking/retooling, since building through free agency and veterans has such a limited (not to mention often much more expensive) window for success (without the long-term development of chemistry).
A good team is:
- talented players
- role definition
- complimentary strengths/weaknesses that fit together
- on court chemistry
- commitment to team-first approach
Looking around the NBA, I actually see the pendulum swinging back towards proper team-building from the ground up, after almost 2 decades of a superstar driven league. First, I think there are far less superstars than there used to be. Second, I think teams understand that a good 'team' is capable of beating a team built around a single superstar.
Obviously, as we've seen with the Heat, multiple stars can take less than market value and go against the competitive nature of sports in an attempt to chase rings - and be successful. However, without being surrounded by quality role players and without having quality depth, it's not as easy as it seems for such super-teams to beat a truly good 'team'.
I grew up watching the Bulls. Yes, MJ is the greatest basketball player of all-time and Pippen was on the inaugural '50 best players of all time' team. However, their sustained success had as much to do with the fact that their core players played together for years and were surrounded by fantastic role players that filled the gaps. As good as MJ and Pippen were, would they have won without having the defense/rebounding of Cartwright/Grant/Longley/Rodman, or the 3pt shooting of Paxson/Kerr, or the 2nd unit scoring spark (Kukoc)? A lot of people look at those Bulls team and say they won 6 championships with a superstar (or superstars), but I think there's much more to it than that. Chemistry, complimentary talent and depth are all crucial to success.Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:20 PM.
Comment
-
CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View PostI think San Antonio proved the old axiom true: you win as a team.
Yes, a team with a superstar can succeed, especially in the NBA (as compared to the other major sports), but a good 'team' can (and should) be able to beat a lesser team that is top-heavy (talent/salary). San Antonio's championship proves that the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts, when players know (and accept) their roles to complement each other and fit together like a puzzle.
That really is the essence of good team building, regardless of how much money you have to work with. In the NBA it becomes more challenging because there's a salary cap. Over the past decade or so there have been 2 main ways to build a team: option 1 is to get a bunch of players making mid-range money; option 2 is to get a couple players making huge money and fill the roster with min-wage players (ie: LBJ's Cavs). Option 1 is hard to do, since a team needs good overall talent, with there being a positive correlation between talent & salary.
The correlation is why the draft is viewed as the ideal way to kick-start successful and sustainable team building. Not only do you get highly talented players for relatively low salaries, but they are also controllable for many years and can be signed with Bird-rights which allows the team to spend beyond the salary cap. Assembling a team of talented young players, who can grow together on and off the court, is the ideal approach. Other players can be added to the core via free agency or trade, but having the homegrown nucleus is critical. I think this line of thought is why so many people were in favor of rebuilding/tanking/retooling, since building through free agency and veterans has such a limited (not to mention often much more expensive) window for success (without the long-term development of chemistry).
A good team is:
- talented players
- role definition
- complimentary strengths/weaknesses that fit together
- on court chemistry
- commitment to team-first approach
Looking around the NBA, I actually see the pendulum swinging back towards proper team-building from the ground up, after almost 2 decades of a superstar driven league. First, I think there are far less superstars than there used to be. Second, I think teams understand that a good 'team' is capable of beating a team built around a single superstar.
Obviously, as we've seen with the Heat, multiple stars can take less than market value and go against the competitive nature of sports in an attempt to chase rings - and be successful. However, without being surrounded by quality role players and without having quality depth, it's not as easy as it seems for such super-teams to beat a truly good 'team'.
I grew up watching the Bulls. Yes, MJ is the greatest basketball player of all-time and Pippen was on the inaugural '50 best players of all time' team. However, their sustained success had as much to do with the fact that their core players played together for years and were surrounded by fantastic role players that filled the gaps. As good as MJ and Pippen were, would they have won without having the defense/rebounding of Cartwright/Grant/Longley/Rodman, or the 3pt shooting of Paxson/Kerr, or the 2nd unit scoring spark (Kukoc)? A lot of people look at those Bulls team and say they won 6 championships with a superstar (or superstars), but I think there's much more to it than that. Chemistry, complimentary talent and depth are all crucial to success.
Comment
-
This is what keeps getting overlooked - as much as San Antonio just turned basketball into The Beautiful Game with some great team ball, Miami's gradual erosion has been just as much of an argument for "team."
We already knew LBJ, Bosh, and Wade couldn't win on their own - that's why they teamed up. Anyone who watched the two championships also say how important Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, and Haslem were to that team. Miami didn't lose their superstar in the past 18 months - they lost their team. It was the drop-off in Wade, Allen, Battier, and Haslem that really killed them, along with the loss of Miller an Bosh's weird career devolution. LBJ, the main superstar in the superstar model, was absolutely fine. It was his team that let him down, and we've known he's needed a team to win a 'ship since the last time he lost to the Spurs in the Finals.
Basically the team vs. superstar narrative is a bit overblown, and there are a lot of odd references to the "failure" of a team that just hit the Finals four straight times and won two Championships during that time. If that's what you consider a failed model, I'd love to see the Raps experience some of that funk."We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard
Comment
-
I look at it this way.
Superstars are the bridge
Role players and guys that fit and play together as a team are the support system and suspension for the bridge.
Across an ocean's worth of water lies a championship. Without superstar(s) (the bridge) you are not getting across (us right now). But if you don't have the support system for those superstars (Melo's Knicks?) the bridge is useless because it can't stand, so you still aren't winning.
In other words you need stars, and you need a supporting cast that fits and plays together as a team.
Comment
-
imanshumpert wrote: View PostYeah so let's not start pretending that multiple superstars screws you up lol.For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar
Comment
-
S.R. wrote: View PostThis is what keeps getting overlooked - as much as San Antonio just turned basketball into The Beautiful Game with some great team ball, Miami's gradual erosion has been just as much of an argument for "team."
We already knew LBJ, Bosh, and Wade couldn't win on their own - that's why they teamed up. Anyone who watched the two championships also say how important Ray Allen, Shane Battier, Mike Miller, and Haslem were to that team. Miami didn't lose their superstar in the past 18 months - they lost their team. It was the drop-off in Wade, Allen, Battier, and Haslem that really killed them, along with the loss of Miller an Bosh's weird career devolution. LBJ, the main superstar in the superstar model, was absolutely fine. It was his team that let him down, and we've known he's needed a team to win a 'ship since the last time he lost to the Spurs in the Finals.
Basically the team vs. superstar narrative is a bit overblown, and there are a lot of odd references to the "failure" of a team that just hit the Finals four straight times and won two Championships during that time. If that's what you consider a failed model, I'd love to see the Raps experience some of that funk.
I agree
So winning 2 championships in 4 years (with 4 straight finals appearances) is looked at as a failed model to some?? I actually think its a good model for short term winning but its just NOT sustainable. Nothing lasts forever and players get older. Keep in mind the wear and tear of playing in 4 straight finals also has to be considered.
San Antonio has almost always been a team that plays great team ball. It just so happens that the "big 3" isn't the same big 3 that they were some years ago and their role players just didn't give enough. Add that to the fact that San Antonio was improved and was clearly the better team and you see the results. Simple as that. Both proved to be successful team building models in my opinion.Last edited by special1; Fri Jul 4, 2014, 11:18 AM.
Comment
-
thead wrote: View PostI guess the problem isn't that model failed but that it is unsustainable.
The Spurs organizational ability to draft contributors so late in the first round, and pick up guys like Diaw and coach them into usefulness, that's even more amazing than their selfless ball movement. That + Pop + Duncan = 15 years of competitiveness."We're playing in a building." -- Kawhi Leonard
Comment
Comment