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Thread: Are the Raptors lacking a true direction?

  1. #21
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    It's all about accumulating assets.

    Also, I think he's closer than 5 years. I'm betting on him being a contributor, either rotation of starter, in his third year.
    It would be nice if the assets had some synchronization in terms of timing and ...

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  3. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    Nice post. I agree with some points that you made and disagree with some other ones.

    First of all, as far as the draft goes, I think MU did not plan to pick this kid up that high and was forced into it. I know RR and the fans here want to make MU god and think he can do wrong but I think the draft was a bust and a missed opportunity. This kid may not be ready in 4 years and this core assuming getting its super star next year, is ready to compete within the next year.

    Yes the guys are young but if you look at the salary structure of the team and ... It will be very hard to keep them together pass 3 season from now. So this Brazilian kid will not be helping these group of guys win.

    Now,as far as direction goes, well, MU did not really have any plans last year. He came inches close to trading Lowry and going full tank but then things turned around and he was forced into sitting back and seeing what happened. To all of our surprises, things worked out for him.

    But now, I think he has a plan. He is going to make a team that can compete in the SHITTY east and can win some games that will keep the fans happy. in the mean time, he will keep the flexibility to go after the Super star in a year or two.

    Fans will be happy because we are wining and if he does not get that super star, then so be it. His moves are going to be small and low risk he will not go for a home run for next season or so.

    The problem I see with his approach is that unless the internal core group of Lowry, Ross, DD and big Val and Amir, do not make the NBA east finals, he has no chance of getting his super star !!!

    So Basically, Raptors will be a team which will win 40-50 games a season and will get eliminated in 2nd rounds year after year.

    I respectfully disagree, but nice post.

    I think there will be some kind of syncro on the timing too. I think the goal is to have the players we want on our team by the summer of 2016, then we resign them using bird rights.

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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    I respectfully disagree, but nice post.

    I think there will be some kind of syncro on the timing too. I think the goal is to have the players we want on our team by the summer of 2016, then we resign them using bird rights.
    I really hope that plan works and we get the star that we are looking for.

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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    It's all about accumulating assets.

    Also, I think he's closer than 5 years. I'm betting on him being a contributor, either rotation or starter, in his third year.
    If the plan is really to accumulating assets then I think we're doing it wrong. Great example of how to get it done is what Philly is doing ATM.

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    I understand that but I personally don't feel a 5 year projects fits the current team which is clearly trying to compete.
    They're not necessarily trying to compete... They're trying to accumulate assets so that in 4 to 5 years they compete for something that matters. If those assets happen to get into the playoffs then that's even better because they'll gain experience.
    "I need to work on my head"

  7. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    If the plan is really to accumulating assets then I think we're doing it wrong. Great example of how to get it done is what Philly is doing ATM.
    Im not sure it is though. Well see. I'm not sure high draft picks are the only kind of assets. I think there are intangibles like team system, support staff, franchise reputation, etc.

    Well see though. Caboclo could be an absolute steal for all we know
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

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    Hope you're wrong.

  8. #27
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    If the plan is really to accumulating assets then I think we're doing it wrong. Great example of how to get it done is what Philly is doing ATM.
    No we're not. We are accumulating assets while increasing the value of our current assets. Thus we are building an actual program. One where we can bring young guys in and add them to what we do, maintain high value for all our assets, and thus give ourselves many pieces to work with, including pieces that already work well together.

    Philly is doing well enough. The draft strategy is bang on for them, they didn't really have better options. Tank, get high picks, hope a couple of them pan out, and build around them. But it's also always hard to build out of the bottom of the league. We'll see where they are in 3-4 years when they have to start deciding on extensions and what they're building toward. Tanking is a strategy that doesn't work more often than it does, as in many teams try the "lose and build up an asset base" strategy but few of them ever become top-tier teams.

    **I mean, there's no guarantee we're doing things the right way, but no guarantee we're doing it the wrong way either. Just like with any team trying to build, whether from scratch through a tank or on the fly, results are not at all easy to predict. Everybody needs some luck.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 3rd, 2014 at 10:10 PM.

  9. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    I understand that but I personally don't feel a 5 year projects fits the current team which is clearly trying to compete. There were a lot of good players that were dropping that they passed on to reach for a guy who barely plays in a league in Brazil let alone the NBA because he has a big wingspan and is athletic over multiple guys that can contribute right now and still have good upside going down the road. It feels like a massive reach like they were zeroed in on those two guys and didn't really scout/care about anyone else.
    It's not "clearly trying to compete". It's building towards a championship, step by step. And who says they didn't care about anyone else? They went to the combine, they had interviews with a LOT of kids, they scheduled 11 workouts if I count correctly. And yet they took a "5 year project" instead of those kids. What might you think of those kids?

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    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    I've had a few, excuse the prose and grammatical mistakes.

    First off: we can't out tank the L-Eastern conf. Philly had the most embarrassing losing streak in major sports and still couldn't get Wiggins. We can't out pay the follower GMs and FA our way to championships like Miami.

    MU strategy: Turn water to wine

    MU came into a hand half played.

    Forget the moves that came before here's what you have. Nurture the assets we have. Increase percieved value. Ergo develop the leagues best sports science team to turn athletes into ball players(McKechnie, cryo chamber, upgraded practice facility et all). Keep JV in rubber bands, DD putting up shots, KL running laps etc.

    Manage fans and parent corp support plus expectations. Keep asses in the seats and comas on the balance sheet black. MU and TL bring back VC? Push for the first All-star game. Rebrand, capitalize on some mixed kids reach and prep school hip hop cred.

    Polish rhinestones, take a borderline coach and players and talk them up league wide. Spill as much ink as possible. Talk up your programming and assets. Get people thinking Lowry is the missing piece in LA or Mia. That Casey is a coach of the year candidate. That you have All-Stars signed longterm to reasonable contracts(DD).

    Essentially talk the walk. Talk it until you can walk it. Once perception changes, teams that can't extend talent will see a great place to work out s&ts.

    tl:dr we aren't the low cost leader(win less draft more 76ers), or the premium brand(pay more for less Lakers/Heat) we are the bargain hunting house flippers renovating that foreclosure!

    Right now GMs around the league should turn the lights off and let the butlers answer the door or take MUs calls. After this showcase year they should see us as Sobeys. Come on in, get what you need, just pay a crazy premium.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar iblastoff's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    I've had a few, excuse the prose and grammatical mistakes.

    First off: we can't out tank the L-Eastern conf. Philly had the most embarrassing losing streak in major sports and still couldn't get Wiggins. We can't out pay the follower GMs and FA our way to championships like Miami.

    MU strategy: Turn water to wine

    MU came into a hand half played.

    Forget the moves that came before here's what you have. Nurture the assets we have. Increase percieved value. Ergo develop the leagues best sports science team to turn athletes into ball players(McKechnie, cryo chamber, upgraded practice facility et all). Keep JV in rubber bands, DD putting up shots, KL running laps etc.

    Manage fans and parent corp support plus expectations. Keep asses in the seats and comas on the balance sheet black. MU and TL bring back VC? Push for the first All-star game. Rebrand, capitalize on some mixed kids reach and prep school hip hop cred.

    Polish rhinestones, take a borderline coach and players and talk them up league wide. Spill as much ink as possible. Talk up your programming and assets. Get people thinking Lowry is the missing piece in LA or Mia. That Casey is a coach of the year candidate. That you have All-Stars signed longterm to reasonable contracts(DD).

    Essentially talk the walk. Talk it until you can walk it. Once perception changes, teams that can't extend talent will see a great place to work out s&ts.

    tl:dr we aren't the low cost leader(win less draft more 76ers), or the premium brand(pay more for less Lakers/Heat) we are the bargain hunting house flippers renovating that foreclosure!

    Right now GMs around the league should turn the lights off and let the butlers answer the door or take MUs calls. After this showcase year they should see us as Sobeys. Come on in, get what you need, just pay a crazy premium.
    Too bad sobeys is losing a ton of money and closing a bunch of stores.

  13. #31
    Raptors Republic Rookie phdmac's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    I understand that but I personally don't feel a 5 year projects fits the current team which is clearly trying to compete. There were a lot of good players that were dropping that they passed on to reach for a guy who barely plays in a league in Brazil let alone the NBA because he has a big wingspan and is athletic over multiple guys that can contribute right now and still have good upside going down the road. It feels like a massive reach like they were zeroed in on those two guys and didn't really scout/care about anyone else.

    They worked out 60 players. So that bolded point is just flat out wrong
    Ball Don't Lie

  14. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Quote iblastoff wrote: View Post
    Too bad sobeys is losing a ton of money and closing a bunch of stores.
    I thought Longo's was too obscure a brand for the metaphor. Your point may be more telling. Who knows if the plan worksout?

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    Seems a silly question in that context. The draft should never be used as a marker for direction if the team. If you have a shot at a high potential piece, you draft that piece. If not, you take the best role player you can find. But that's true whether you are the Heat or the 76ers.

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Seems a silly question in that context. The draft should never be used as a marker for direction if the team. If you have a shot at a high potential piece, you draft that piece. If not, you take the best role player you can find. But that's true whether you are the Heat or the 76ers.
    30% of RRepublicans see Bruno as a bad off the board pick(they should read Aldridge or CBSSports reports). Moreover hunting Lowry's replacement mid courtship is mixed signals. Add that to a capped out team: the question seems begged.

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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    30% of RRepublicans see Bruno as a bad off the board pick(they should read Aldridge or CBSSports reports). Moreover hunting Lowry's replacement mid courtship is mixed signals. Add that to a capped out team: the question seems begged.
    Well if the question seems begged, then you misunderstand the point of the draft.

    You want a role player? Sign one. They are a dime a dozen.

    You want a player that can contribute right away? Sign one. The draft won't address this, not outside the lotto.

    30% of RRepublicans are wrong, but that aside, an off the board pick versus an on the board pick would have little to no consequence for this season, and possibly even for next season. Non-lotto draft picks simply will not move the needle in their first year or two. Even if they contribute, it will be as a backup, as the 10th or 11th most important piece on the team.

    Hunting Lowry's replacement mid-courtship is called preparing for an unrestricted free agent to potentially leave the team. It's called common sense. It would be moronic not to consider that scenario and prepare for it, no matter the direction of the team.

    I see nothing in your post that implies any sort of questionable direction.

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  19. #36
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Well if the question seems begged, then you misunderstand the point of the draft.

    You want a role player? Sign one. They are a dime a dozen.

    You want a player that can contribute right away? Sign one. The draft won't address this, not outside the lotto.

    30% of RRepublicans are wrong, but that aside, an off the board pick versus an on the board pick would have little to no consequence for this season, and possibly even for next season. Non-lotto draft picks simply will not move the needle in their first year or two. Even if they contribute, it will be as a backup, as the 10th or 11th most important piece on the team.

    Hunting Lowry's replacement mid-courtship is called preparing for an unrestricted free agent to potentially leave the team. It's called common sense. It would be moronic not to consider that scenario and prepare for it, no matter the direction of the team.

    I see nothing in your post that implies any sort of questionable direction.
    This. Why the hell are people upset that we didn't draft a career role player at #20?



    Listen to Jalen Rose's explanation at 4:28. We're not a team that's known for signing stars in free agency (plus we had no cap room for one this year anyway)... we've been hella good at signing role players though. That's why in the draft we need to go for potential and upside to have a shot at getting star players.

    Every star player that's ever played for Toronto has been drafted, and all of them were high upside, athletic, long players (with the exception of Lowry who we traded a draft pick for).

  20. #37
    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    This is a bit of a weird thread. I think the "direction" is pretty clear and has been well explained here, a couple of my fellow RR members just seem to refuse to see it. It's not even about agreeing/disagreeing with it, just not seeing at all is a little mind boggling to me. MU's gotten nothing but praise from virtually every corner since starting here, has made moves that exceeded almost all our expectations on several occasions, how you can write the process off at this very early point as "directionless" and "treadmill" is beyond me. Those terms have never been more ill-fitting of the Toronto Raptors.

    This thing is just getting started. Let's see where it goes.

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  22. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    I think the direction is obvious.

    Masai Ujiri
    On the negative reaction to the pick: “Honestly, I don’t do it for reactions of anybody. I don’t know. I shouldn’t say this, but I don’t care. We’re in a business where I can’t react to anything, I just have to maybe do my job and you hope that the best comes out of it. Yeah, is it a gamble? Yes. But I was asking someone, do we remember who the 20th picks of the last 10 drafts are?”

    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/...os-draft-pick/
    This is no Rafael Araujo or Andrea Bargnani situation. The kid has talent and he has heart. While that might not be enough, in the end, it just might be and Toronto, unlike some of the NBA’s golden franchises, needs to take chances like this every once in a while in order to meet the eventual goal of becoming a contender.

    http://www.owensoundsuntimes.com/201...what-hes-doing
    “There’s none. I don’t think there’s any risk,” Ujiri said. “I’ll announce it here: We’re going to go through hard times. You have to expect them. We’re going to bump heads. Our job is to figure it out and move forward. The players, I think, understand that, and that’s why you want to always get guys who put basketball first and compete. Those are the kind of guys that we have. For me, that taste in your mouth is a little bitter, how we lost. … They come back hungry. These guys are just a phenomenal group of guys that want to work and go out and compete. When that time comes, we’ll deal with it. For me, the overall culture is what you want to create.”

    http://sports.nationalpost.com/2014/...e-of-cohesion/
    "You come in and start to preach something different," Ujiri said. "You have to start instilling some of the things you believe in. I believe in passion, I believe in honesty, I believe in working hard and giving it your best. I don't believe in excuses."

    http://www.cbc.ca/television/posts/t...-teams-culture
    The other plea that Ujiri and Casey make incessantly is for patience — “We are a work in progress” is the coach’s daily mantra — and it’s another reason the Heat and Spurs have been so successful. Miami’s in the NBA final for the fourth straight time — that’s not something likely to ever happen with the Raptors — but they are insistent on making each season about building rather than expecting.

    Franchises would be wise to follow that lead, to expect nothing because of past success — or failure. The Raptors know that when the next season starts, the surprising success of last season will mean little, it is about continuing the process.

    “If you’re doing the process the right way, eventually the result will hopefully take care of itself but that’s not guaranteed. So the only thing you can focus on is the now,” said Spoelstra.

    “You have to go through the process of building habits and then go through the process of competition and figuring it out. Then when it’s all said and done, you know, everybody can look back on it and see what the result was.”

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/basket...to_follow.html
    My .02:
    Look at the transactions that have taken place under Masai's watch. If you can't see the trend then me spelling it out is not going to do much to change one's mind.
    "Championships are what we live for, now lets go win them."
    Tim Leiweke

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  23. #39
    Raptors Republic Superstar Puffer's Avatar
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    Quote Jamshid wrote: View Post
    ...So Basically, Raptors will be a team which will win 40-50 games a season and will get eliminated in 2nd rounds year after year.
    Well Thank God.

    Now that it is all laid out so nicely for me I can go back to doing more productive things. One question though. With this kind of almost omnipotent foresight, how come you are on this forum posting? Or following the Raptors? Is it that you don't mind paying the price in suffering to save all the rest of us...warning us of the unending, bleak mediocre existence to come? Or is it that you are just full of yourself and are pulling predictions out of your ass? Inquiring minds want to know.

    (PS. Who is your source in Masai's office that fed you details of his lack of plan last year and his formula for the next era of crapitude? One of the assistant coaches? Or someone else).

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    I think the direction is obvious; keep building. I think the draft was a sign of two things:
    (1) Masai has confidence in his job security
    (2) Masai is willing to shoot for the fences

    It's not like if we drafted a decent shooter this team turns into a contender. We still lost in the first round in a year that it was unexpected to even make the playoffs. I can see it now -- if we fall to the 6th or 7th seed, there will be people here thinking it's time to blow up the team.

    Quote Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
    In 4 years we'll have a 28 year old Derozan, a 27 year old Ross, a 26 year old Valanciunas, a 29 year old Patterson, a 22 year old Bruno, a 25 year old Bebe. Add to that 3 first round picks in the next two years and all our cap space and our prime is in about 4 years.

    Plus a 32 year old Lowry should still be able to play. 31 year old Vasquez. 31 year old Amir.
    It's a nice plan until you look at the potential/future salaries. In 4 years DeRozan, JV, Ross and Amir will all have new contracts. Likely we won't be able to afford all 4 of them. Given current rate of development I think you can make some fair estimations:

    Lowry: $12M
    DeRozan: $14-15M
    Caboclo: $2M
    Valanciunas: $8-9M
    Noguira: $2M
    Ross: $7M
    Vasquez: $7M
    Johnson: $10M
    Patterson: $6M
    3 more first round picks: $5M total

    That's already $73-75M. Even if you consider an improving NBA economy, I highly doubt the salary cap will get that high in 4 years. Right now we have 6-8 guys who are all very capable but no significant standouts. Ideally you want a bit of top-heaviness, like 2-3 guys who are extremely good, and then a solid group rounding out the roster. My vision would be that in 4 years a number of the above players will be packaged off to create the top-heaviness that is needed to really contend.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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