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Thread: Are the Raptors lacking a true direction?

  1. #41
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    Waaaaahhhh!!!! The GM didn't draft the guy I wanted! This team has no direction!

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic Starter Bonus Jonas's Avatar
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    Lowry: $12M
    DeRozan: $14-15M
    Caboclo: $2M
    Valanciunas: $8-9M
    Noguira: $2M
    Ross: $7M
    Vasquez: $7M
    Johnson: $10M
    Patterson: $6M
    3 more first round picks: $5M total

    That's already $73-75M.
    No chance in hell Amir Johnson's given 10M and Greivis is given 7M. Amir for about 7M and Greivis for about 4.5-5M.

    I just saved you about 5M so it is realistic we keep all our guys, especially since 75M isn't luxury tax and we'll have bird rights on everyone.

    I agree about packaging a couple guys, but only if it makes us a clear cut contender.

    I agree with everything else you said about Masai.

  3. #43
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    I think the direction is obvious; keep building. I think the draft was a sign of two things:
    (1) Masai has confidence in his job security
    (2) Masai is willing to shoot for the fences

    It's not like if we drafted a decent shooter this team turns into a contender. We still lost in the first round in a year that it was unexpected to even make the playoffs. I can see it now -- if we fall to the 6th or 7th seed, there will be people here thinking it's time to blow up the team.



    It's a nice plan until you look at the potential/future salaries. In 4 years DeRozan, JV, Ross and Amir will all have new contracts. Likely we won't be able to afford all 4 of them. Given current rate of development I think you can make some fair estimations:

    Lowry: $12M
    DeRozan: $14-15M
    Caboclo: $2M
    Valanciunas: $8-9M
    Noguira: $2M
    Ross: $7M
    Vasquez: $7M
    Johnson: $10M
    Patterson: $6M
    3 more first round picks: $5M total

    That's already $73-75M. Even if you consider an improving NBA economy, I highly doubt the salary cap will get that high in 4 years. Right now we have 6-8 guys who are all very capable but no significant standouts. Ideally you want a bit of top-heaviness, like 2-3 guys who are extremely good, and then a solid group rounding out the roster. My vision would be that in 4 years a number of the above players will be packaged off to create the top-heaviness that is needed to really contend.
    Over the course of last year to summer 2015, the cap is going from 58.7M to 63.2M to 66.5M, based on projections. Last year's projections has this year's cap at 61M instead of 63.2M. So we may outpace those numbers. But even taking them as is, projecting that forward to 4 years from now suggests a cap of 76.4M. Which leaves another 17M to add before hitting the tax. Hopefully in the form of a max free agent we sign next summer.

  4. #44
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Waaaaahhhh!!!! The GM didn't draft the guy I wanted! This team has no direction!
    LOL I swear OP's related to Rodney Hood. The guy's not good at all

  5. #45
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    That's ridiculous. Amir is already making $7M this year. And by all accounts I don't think you'll find a single person here who doesn't agree that he is underpaid for what he does. I was being conservative when I wrote that he'd be earning $10M, 4 years from now.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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  7. #46
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    That's ridiculous. Amir is already making $7M this year. And by all accounts I don't think you'll find a single person here who doesn't agree that he is underpaid for what he does. I was being conservative when I wrote that he'd be earning $10M, 4 years from now.
    If you wanna pay a 31 year old PF with bad ankles 10M a year you go ahead. It's a good thing you're not a GM.....

    Guarantee Amir doesn't get a pay raise, he resigns for what he's making now IF that

  8. #47
    Raptors Republic Starter mjt20mik's Avatar
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    Lack of direction.. I'm not sure. I think MU plan is still focused on growing and developing the players. I am not sure what will happen this season, but it's looking like the east may be horrible again (which is good in terms of making it playoffs again for our guys).

  9. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
    If you wanna pay a 31 year old PF with bad ankles 10M a year you go ahead. It's a good thing you're not a GM.....

    Guarantee Amir doesn't get a pay raise, he resigns for what he's making now IF that
    Show me a single starting NBA power forward who didn't get a pay raise at age 27.
    your pal,
    ebrian

  10. #49
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    Quote Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
    If you wanna pay a 31 year old PF with bad ankles 10M a year you go ahead. It's a good thing you're not a GM.....

    Guarantee Amir doesn't get a pay raise, he resigns for what he's making now IF that
    He may get a pay raise - but the team that signs him to that may regret it if they sign him to a 3+ year deal. He really is breaking down.

  11. #50
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Well if the question seems begged, then you misunderstand the point of the draft.

    You want a role player? Sign one. They are a dime a dozen.

    You want a player that can contribute right away? Sign one. The draft won't address this, not outside the lotto.

    30% of RRepublicans are wrong, but that aside, an off the board pick versus an on the board pick would have little to no consequence for this season, and possibly even for next season. Non-lotto draft picks simply will not move the needle in their first year or two. Even if they contribute, it will be as a backup, as the 10th or 11th most important piece on the team.

    Hunting Lowry's replacement mid-courtship is called preparing for an unrestricted free agent to potentially leave the team. It's called common sense. It would be moronic not to consider that scenario and prepare for it, no matter the direction of the team.

    I see nothing in your post that implies any sort of questionable direction.
    I personally side with the majority on this. The Raptors are on track in my mind. I pointed out that where you see certainty the minority see murky judgement at best, and at worst hackneyed post betting. A small foible with your statement of misunderstanding the draft. OP mentioned direction. The drafts planning and execution, of whatever selection, is a major part of the direction and as such its results beg the question of the organizations direction.

    Since the flip side of this coin is just as interesting, I'll have a go.

    Either you are hedging on the possibility that Lowry leaves or you aren't. If hunting his replacement is common sense. Drafting depth is just as common. Taking the fiasco that is Napier over "huge gamble" is the safe play. Heading into free agency with 0 Point Guards under contract is recipe for disaster.

    Contrary to that; if you knew you would have one or both of your PGs back why hunt their replacements at all? Why expend the resources. Focus on your concerns at another position. MU pointed out shot blocking and wing depth. The prospects you just described as not helping in the short term(year 1 Bruno, year 2 Bebe) aren't sufficient. In addition to the prospects adding to the cap MU brought in another player(Lou Williams) that can't address your stated deficiencies.

    Asset accumulation is great, but to what end? What is the ultimate goal? How far out is it? What's the lineup going to look like in the mean time.

    Surely if everything is on track these question are easily answered.
    Last edited by Raptor Jesus; Fri Jul 4th, 2014 at 11:38 AM.

  12. #51
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor Jesus wrote: View Post
    I personally side with the majority on this. The Raptors are on track in my mind. I pointed out that where you see certainty the minority see murky judgement at best, and at worst hackneyed post betting. A small foible with your statement of misunderstanding the draft. OP mentioned direction the drafts planning and execution, of whatever selection, is a major part of the direction and as such its results beg the question of the organizations direction.

    Since the flip side of this coin is just as interesting, I'll have a go.

    Either you are hedging on the possibility that Lowry leaves or you aren't. If hunting his replacement is common sense. Drafting depth is just as common. Taking the fiasco that is Napier over "huge gamble" is the safe play. Heading into free agency with 0 Point Guards under contract is recipe for disaster.

    Contrary to that; if you knew you would have one or both of your PGs back why hunt their replacements at all? Why expend the resources. Focus on your concerns at another position. MU pointed out shot blocking and wing depth. The prospects you just described as not helping in the short term(year 1 Bruno, year 2 Bebe) aren't sufficient. In addition to the prospects adding to the cap MU brought in another player(Lou Williams) that can't address your stated deficiencies.

    Asset accumulation is great, but to what end? What is the ultimate goal? How far out is it? What's the lineup going to look like in the mean time.

    Surely if everything is on track these question are easily answered.
    To what end?
    To develop your own role players, starters, or stars OR to use assets in a trade for a star.

    What is the ultimate goal?
    To win championships or at the very least be a real contender for them.

    How far out is it?
    This entire team minus Lowry is set up to grow together for another 5-6 years if Masai chooses.

    What the lineup going to look like in the mean time?
    A combination of pieces acquired in the process of cleansing Colangelo's biggest mistakes (Hayes, Novak, Fields), winning now (DD, Amir, Lowry, Williams, Vasquez*, Patterson*), and planning for the future (Ross**, JV**, Bruno, Bebe).

    *Assumption they are brought back.
    **Breakout years from Ross and JV really changes dynamic of this team in the here and now.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
    Bruno Caboclo

    Basketball has clear winners every night --
    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

  13. #52
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    Yup, the ascension of Ross or JV or even BOTH to all-star level would push this team well above 50 wins imo, and it's not outside the realm of possibility. Lots of people here think Ross has more potential than DeRozan (who's already an all-star), and we know JV has the potential to do big things in this league.

    People just need to calm down and be patient imo. You can't build an instant championship team unless you're a mega-market like the Lakers (where they essentially acquired Kobe and Shaq for nothing in one year in '96... and even then it was FOUR years before they won it all).

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  15. #53
    Raptors Republic Starter Raptor Jesus's Avatar
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    To what end?
    To develop your own role players, starters, or stars OR to use assets in a trade for a star.

    What is the ultimate goal?
    To win championships or at the very least be a real contender for them.

    How far out is it?
    This entire team minus Lowry is set up to grow together for another 5-6 years if Masai chooses.

    What the lineup going to look like in the mean time?
    A combination of pieces acquired in the process of cleansing Colangelo's biggest mistakes (Hayes, Novak, Fields), winning now (DD, Amir, Lowry, Williams, Vasquez*, Patterson*), and planning for the future (Ross**, JV**, Bruno, Bebe).

    *Assumption they are brought back.
    **Breakout years from Ross and JV really changes dynamic of this team in the here and now.
    And sure enough they were. Nicely put.

    Guess the minority need a better spokesperson, I did a terrible job.

  16. #54
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    I can see where OP's coming from. However, you can't expect the Raps to draft someone at 20 who can turn us from a contender in the playoffs to a contender for the title (unless we get real lucky). We're still missing one core piece. Whether that be our current guys developing into one, or us signing a FA. It's a risky move, but Bruno was signed because UM saw that he has the most upside. Sure we could have signed more established talent from usa college hoops, but their ceiling is lower and they likely won't push us over that hump.

    If bruno pans out to be what UM hoped he would become, our core would still be within their prime. JV and Ross could still use a couple of years under their belt and DD technically has yet to reach his prime. Lowry might be a bit older by then (assuming our current team sticks around), but he'll still be the leader and the 'heart' of the team. At that point, you'd have to expect ross and JV to have developed far enough so that Lowry isn't asked to carry the offensive load every night. And with a couple more key acquisitions, only then are we really a contender.

  17. #55
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    He may get a pay raise - but the team that signs him to that may regret it if they sign him to a 3+ year deal. He really is breaking down.
    And the raps aren't that team. He's signing for 7M or less.

  18. #56
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    Quote Bonus Jonas wrote: View Post
    And the raps aren't that team. He's signing for 7M or less.
    I agree. I love, love, love Amir Johnson, but I wouldn't want to give him a 4 yr 10mil/per deal for his next deal. He'll be overpaid by the end of it.

    Especially if the Raps can keep Pat Pat. In a couple seasons you'd like JV and PatPat to be your starting bigs, and you don't need a wearing down bench big making $10mil/year.

  19. #57
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    Over the course of last year to summer 2015, the cap is going from 58.7M to 63.2M to 66.5M, based on projections. Last year's projections has this year's cap at 61M instead of 63.2M. So we may outpace those numbers. But even taking them as is, projecting that forward to 4 years from now suggests a cap of 76.4M. Which leaves another 17M to add before hitting the tax. Hopefully in the form of a max free agent we sign next summer.
    No doubt we're all hoping for the same thing. But these guys are arguing that Ross, JV, Johnson, Caboclo, DeRozan, Noguira, Patterson, Lowry, Vasquez and 3 future first round picks will all still be on our payroll in 4 years. That's simply not possible, especially if we're signing Kevin Durant next summer
    your pal,
    ebrian

  20. #58
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    I agree. I love, love, love Amir Johnson, but I wouldn't want to give him a 4 yr 10mil/per deal for his next deal. He'll be overpaid by the end of it.

    Especially if the Raps can keep Pat Pat. In a couple seasons you'd like JV and PatPat to be your starting bigs, and you don't need a wearing down bench big making $10mil/year.
    Plus Amir loves the raps. So as long. As there's improvement on the team and Masai proves he's spending wisely, Amir will resign for a discount

  21. #59
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    Quote ebrian wrote: View Post
    No doubt we're all hoping for the same thing. But these guys are arguing that Ross, JV, Johnson, Caboclo, DeRozan, Noguira, Patterson, Lowry, Vasquez and 3 future first round picks will all still be on our payroll in 4 years. That's simply not possible, especially if we're signing Kevin Durant next summer
    Durant's not a free agent next summer.

    Lowry's signed for the next four years.
    No chance we don't resign Ross and JV.
    Bebe and Bruno's rookie deals have them for the next four years.
    Amir's a rap for life.
    Patman and Gravy are iffy depending on if they resign now.

  22. #60
    Raptors Republic All-Star ebrian's Avatar
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    Doesn't matter when. We can't get him if we kept everyone.
    your pal,
    ebrian

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