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Thread: Perennial Contender or One Chipper?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    I'd take the perennial contender route. I would much more enjoy watching 10 straight years of competitive, conference contending basketball than one year of possibly winning a championship. I say possibly, because obviously we would never really know the outcome, and if we did, I wouldn't watch at all. 10/10 chances of making the Finals or conference finals is better than 1/10 of actually winning it IMO.

    I'd rather say I supported a team that went to the playoffs for 10 straight years and was a threat to get to the conference finals in each of those years than say I supported a team that sucked for nine years but then went out and bought a winning team for 1 year, and then proceeded to suck again afterwards. The former would also present the greater challenge IMO. And I'm talking at least a conference contender here, not just a team that squeaks into the playoffs year after year with a low seed.

    Those Blue Jays championships were awesome, but the wasteland before and after is a little depressing, no?

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic Rookie serbiantiger8's Avatar
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    Quote JordanMariam14 wrote: View Post
    So it's kind of like Spurs after beating Cavs till last year when they lost to Heat or Dallas.. Rather be Dallas

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    Dallas made the play-offs the last decade or so... They've had a great run, especially before their title run.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote serbiantiger8 wrote: View Post
    Dallas made the play-offs the last decade or so... They've had a great run, especially before their title run.
    Dallas have been perennial contenders with a chip.

    Perennial contenders without one:
    Nash Suns
    Durant OKC

    Having the success of either of those teams would be awesome, but not winning it all would be bitter sweet. I just wanna have a good group of guys who are easy to cheer for and make us proud.

    If we went in every year and beat writers actually gave us a real chance to win, that hope would keep me happy.

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  5. #24
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    I guess the real question is would you want to trade all your long term assets for a chance to win now (Brooklyn Nets) or would you rather continue to develop those long term assets and add to them to build a team that will always be in contention but night never win (Utah Jazz from the 90's) .

    The problem with a short term/win now method is that if it backfires (and there is a big chance it could), the team could suck for a very long time as they won't have young assets to rely on. But if this works, man would it be fun.

    Being in Toronto though I don't know how realistic the short term option would be as we'd have to hope and pray star players would want to team up and play in Toronto especially if they cleared their cupboards to get them. I want a championship though, and that's more important than being good but not great for a long time.

    I guess I'd have more faith that a good team can become great with a little luck than a team can become great immediately and succeed. But if we had hindsight to work with, than give me the single win because that's what it is all about.

    We've been celebrating Vince Carter's team getting to the second round for how many years? Imagine if they won it all.. wow that would be nice to talk about.

  6. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter Edgar's Avatar
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    Easily would choose the Larry O'Brien and 9 years of sucking over contending and knowing it would never happen. Why? "NBA champions" is a more elusive than than any other major sport - Only 8 teams in the last 30 years have won and only Dallas failed to repeat over that time and 1 of those were an underdog (Dallas) - meaning 7 teams own a whopping 93.3% of all championships during that time. Hell the Lakers alone own 26.6% of those championships.

    I would easily choose 9 years of Milt Palacio's and Zan Tabaks and one chip over Atlanta, Utah, Phoenix, etc. Winning breeds winning and the fact that we can claim stake as a franchise that's done it puts us firmly on the 2nd tier in the eyes of free agents, the media, and front office talent. If you think a half-decade peak Vince Carter is the primary reason for the crop of young Canadian players compare that to baseball and the wave of Canadians that came out of the Blue Jays brief championship era....

    Last point - If the Celtics aren't the Celtics how in god's name Kevin Love even considers them as a destination?!??!
    When Tom Chambers dunks an NBA player gets their hops...

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  8. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star Letter N's Avatar
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    Championship, because I'm old enough to remember the 90's Jays and the 90's Leafs, and no matter what when I think back on it I can see Joe Carter jump around those bases, or Devo start that shoulda-been triple play or Ed Sprague hit that pinch hit homerun, with the Leafs it's all these great memories that end with misery (Damn you Gretzky!!).

    It especially sucks because I love hockey way more than baseball.

  9. #27
    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote JawsGT wrote: View Post
    I'd take the perennial contender route. I would much more enjoy watching 10 straight years of competitive, conference contending basketball than one year of possibly winning a championship. I say possibly, because obviously we would never really know the outcome, and if we did, I wouldn't watch at all. 10/10 chances of making the Finals or conference finals is better than 1/10 of actually winning it IMO.

    I'd rather say I supported a team that went to the playoffs for 10 straight years and was a threat to get to the conference finals in each of those years than say I supported a team that sucked for nine years but then went out and bought a winning team for 1 year, and then proceeded to suck again afterwards. The former would also present the greater challenge IMO. And I'm talking at least a conference contender here, not just a team that squeaks into the playoffs year after year with a low seed.

    Those Blue Jays championships were awesome, but the wasteland before and after is a little depressing, no?
    OP specifically said 50+ wins WITHOUT winning a championship.

    If we could be a perennial contender with the chance to win a championship I'm sure everyone would choose that option.

    It's basically would you rather be the Stockton-Malone Jazz or the Billups/Wallaces Pistons with less success bookending that one chip.

  10. #28
    Raptors Republic Starter Scraptor's Avatar
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    Quote planetmars wrote: View Post
    I guess the real question is would you want to trade all your long term assets for a chance to win now (Brooklyn Nets) or would you rather continue to develop those long term assets and add to them to build a team that will always be in contention but night never win (Utah Jazz from the 90's) .

    The problem with a short term/win now method is that if it backfires (and there is a big chance it could), the team could suck for a very long time as they won't have young assets to rely on. But if this works, man would it be fun.

    Being in Toronto though I don't know how realistic the short term option would be as we'd have to hope and pray star players would want to team up and play in Toronto especially if they cleared their cupboards to get them. I want a championship though, and that's more important than being good but not great for a long time.

    I guess I'd have more faith that a good team can become great with a little luck than a team can become great immediately and succeed. But if we had hindsight to work with, than give me the single win because that's what it is all about.

    We've been celebrating Vince Carter's team getting to the second round for how many years? Imagine if they won it all.. wow that would be nice to talk about.
    Again, the hypothetical doesn't work if you change the parameters. The OP states a guaranteed championship, not a gamble to win now with the possibility of losing.

    It's not a question of team building philosophies as it is a question of what type of person you are. If you care more about the journey than the destination, you'll probably choose the perennial contender. If you care about the destination more, you'll pick the guaranteed title.

    Both choices are subjective and personal. There really is no objectively correct answer without getting into a much bigger debate on the nature of sport and why we compete in the first place.

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  12. #29
    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Again, the hypothetical doesn't work if you change the parameters. The OP states a guaranteed championship, not a gamble to win now with the possibility of losing.

    It's not a question of team building philosophies as it is a question of what type of person you are. If you care more about the journey than the destination, you'll probably choose the perennial contender. If you care about the destination more, you'll pick the guaranteed title.

    Both choices are subjective and personal. There really is no objectively correct answer without getting into a much bigger debate on the nature of sport and why we compete in the first place.
    You've hit the nail on the head. Though it is a really tough question if you have to select one or the other, rather it be in hindsight(obviously easier for Raps fans cause we've dealt with all the shit forever), or trying to predict the future(Would you really be happy going forward with 1 season at say 7th seed, that we win the title and all the rest of the seasons are 20-30 wins)? I think it's just too easy for Raptor fans to say "Championship" for one year and 9 shitty ones, that's what we know.

    Like Scraptor says, it's totally subjective and personal opinion, but I would at least prefer to believe that there's a shot at winning every season. It's a very long season and that's what we pay attention to the most.

    I should have put a poll up, but I'd say I'm rather surprised that most folks would take the One Chipper route. And as somebody pointed out earlier in the thread, only a handful of teams have won the title in the last 30 years. Maybe that's why I temper my expectations, but it really is that hard to win it all.
    Keep Calm & Chive On

  13. #30
    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Quote Edgar wrote: View Post
    Easily would choose the Larry O'Brien and 9 years of sucking over contending and knowing it would never happen. Why? "NBA champions" is a more elusive than than any other major sport - Only 8 teams in the last 30 years have won and only Dallas failed to repeat over that time and 1 of those were an underdog (Dallas) - meaning 7 teams own a whopping 93.3% of all championships during that time. Hell the Lakers alone own 26.6% of those championships.

    I would easily choose 9 years of Milt Palacio's and Zan Tabaks and one chip over Atlanta, Utah, Phoenix, etc. Winning breeds winning and the fact that we can claim stake as a franchise that's done it puts us firmly on the 2nd tier in the eyes of free agents, the media, and front office talent. If you think a half-decade peak Vince Carter is the primary reason for the crop of young Canadian players compare that to baseball and the wave of Canadians that came out of the Blue Jays brief championship era....

    Last point - If the Celtics aren't the Celtics how in god's name Kevin Love even considers them as a destination?!??!
    What if the winning came in year 3 of 10, and then the team reverted to shit for the other 7?

    Also, the Jays were a very good team from '83-'93. Just remember that only 2 teams from each league made the playoffs up til '93, so had they made playoffs in any of those years like teams can today, we may be looking at not 2, but maybe 3, maybe 4 maybe 5 maybe 6 maybe 7...just saying.
    Keep Calm & Chive On

  14. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    OP specifically said 50+ wins WITHOUT winning a championship.

    If we could be a perennial contender with the chance to win a championship I'm sure everyone would choose that option.

    It's basically would you rather be the Stockton-Malone Jazz or the Billups/Wallaces Pistons with less success bookending that one chip.
    Doesn't matter. I think about it as if I don't know the future. So being a 50+ win team 10 years straight means you have a chance of contending each year, which is much more appealing to me than casually following a terrible team for 9 years with only a single season where I am truly engaged as a fan (and maybe I wouldn't care at all, cause sucking for 9 seasons would likely deter me from being a fan). If we were to look back on a twenty year stretch, and in the first 10 years we were at least in the hunt for a conference championship with 10 50+ win seasons, I would consider that a more successful run than a ten year stretch of sucking big time plus one championship. It would also infer that we basically bought our championship team, as opposed to developing it, and I don't really think that's anything to be proud of, because anyone with deep enough pockets can achieve that (good decisions pending of course). I'd rather the program style than the one and done.

  15. #32
    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
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    Quote stooley wrote: View Post
    Dallas have been perennial contenders with a chip.

    Perennial contenders without one:
    Nash Suns
    Durant OKC

    Having the success of either of those teams would be awesome, but not winning it all would be bitter sweet. I just wanna have a good group of guys who are easy to cheer for and make us proud.

    If we went in every year and beat writers actually gave us a real chance to win, that hope would keep me happy.
    I would add to that that being a perennial 50 wins team in the Eastern conference gives you basically a 1 out of 3 chance at reaching the final.
    Myself (March 2014):
    The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

  16. #33
    Raptors Republic All-Star JawsGT's Avatar
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    Quote Mack North wrote: View Post
    What if the winning came in year 3 of 10, and then the team reverted to shit for the other 7?

    Also, the Jays were a very good team from '83-'93. Just remember that only 2 teams from each league made the playoffs up til '93, so had they made playoffs in any of those years like teams can today, we may be looking at not 2, but maybe 3, maybe 4 maybe 5 maybe 6 maybe 7...just saying.
    That's a good point. If the team developed, say, through years 1-4, won a championship in year 5 and hit it's ceiling, followed by another 4-5 years of rebuilding, en route to another championship than that would be just about ideal. Multiple championships would be perfect of course. But 9 years of lottery with maybe a low seed playoff berth here and there and one championship would not be preferable to me as 10 years of contention.

  17. #34
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume we have to answer the question without knowing the outcome of each season?

    At the end of the day, basketball is a form of entertainment. I'd rather be entertained for 9 straight seasons, than just 1. There is nothing entertaining about watching Ben Uzoh tripple doubles.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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