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Perennial Contender or One Chipper?

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  • #16
    Puffer wrote: View Post
    Respectfully disagree. Would you rather have 9 years of great marriage, or one year of fantastic marriage and 9 years of hell?
    That is kind of different.

    A player may be happy winning but never getting a championship, I don't know because I'm not one, but I know the goal for every player is to win a championship.

    Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

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    • #17
      Superjudge wrote: View Post
      Mack, one of the best posts I have read in years, thanks man. Thats a question you almost never hear.

      Its easy though, One chipper......

      We have already seen years of shit ball....but if the won next year, all of it, THAT would be worth it.
      Well that's the thing... I think it would be pretty easy for us as suffering Raptors fans to take that one chip because we are so used to seeing a loser that it doesn't matter anymore, almost expected (last year and going forward not included). But how about those Portland fans, that got to experience playoff ball for, I think it was 18+ seasons. Not sure i would trade all that in for 9 - 20 win seasons with no hope at all, but one championship.

      Don't get me wrong, the main reason they play the games and we watch as fans, is for our team to win the title. But let's remember that the full season lasts from November til April, then playoffs. That's where most of our enjoyment comes from, night-in-night - out. It's so disappointing watching a crummy team that has no shot of winning year after year. That's why, for me, I would love to see 10 great November til Late Mays, rather than 9 shitty November thru April, plus one good April thru June.

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      • #18
        Mack North wrote: View Post
        Well that's the thing... I think it would be pretty easy for us as suffering Raptors fans to take that one chip because we are so used to seeing a loser that it doesn't matter anymore, almost expected (last year and going forward not included). But how about those Portland fans, that got to experience playoff ball for, I think it was 18+ seasons. Not sure i would trade all that in for 9 - 20 win seasons with no hope at all, but one championship.

        Don't get me wrong, the main reason they play the games and we watch as fans, is for our team to win the title. But let's remember that the full season lasts from November til April, then playoffs. That's where most of our enjoyment comes from, night-in-night - out. It's so disappointing watching a crummy team that has no shot of winning year after year. That's why, for me, I would love to see 10 great November til Late Mays, rather than 9 shitty November thru April, plus one good April thru June.
        But does anyone remember anything from any of those seasons? Is it ever talked about? People remember championships.
        Imagine if Raps went 10-72 one season then goes on to win it all the next year, people would remember that forever and be like how the fuck did they do that? It would be awesome lol
        You come at the King, you best not miss.

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        • #19
          I think you have to explain it further though. The 10 years straight of going 12-4 in the NFL -- in that scenario, are you saying in those 10 years you know ahead of time that you'll never win a Superbowl? To me it's all about knowing. The two choices are this:

          10 years straight of making the playoffs with the knowledge that we would never win a championship
          vs
          10 years of sucking but knowing that once every 10 years you will win a championship

          I'd take the latter choice. It would be very hard to cheer for a team knowing they will never win the big one, no matter how successful they are.
          your pal,
          ebrian

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          • #20
            Mr.Z wrote: View Post
            But does anyone remember anything from any of those seasons? Is it ever talked about? People remember championships.
            Imagine if Raps went 10-72 one season then goes on to win it all the next year, people would remember that forever and be like how the fuck did they do that? It would be awesome lol
            I'm talking day to day enjoyment through ten seasons rather than 9 lousy seasons with a fluke season mixed in. I don't care what other people remember, I prefer the consistent winning.

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            • #21
              I'd take the perennial contender route. I would much more enjoy watching 10 straight years of competitive, conference contending basketball than one year of possibly winning a championship. I say possibly, because obviously we would never really know the outcome, and if we did, I wouldn't watch at all. 10/10 chances of making the Finals or conference finals is better than 1/10 of actually winning it IMO.

              I'd rather say I supported a team that went to the playoffs for 10 straight years and was a threat to get to the conference finals in each of those years than say I supported a team that sucked for nine years but then went out and bought a winning team for 1 year, and then proceeded to suck again afterwards. The former would also present the greater challenge IMO. And I'm talking at least a conference contender here, not just a team that squeaks into the playoffs year after year with a low seed.

              Those Blue Jays championships were awesome, but the wasteland before and after is a little depressing, no?

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              • #22
                JordanMariam14 wrote: View Post
                So it's kind of like Spurs after beating Cavs till last year when they lost to Heat or Dallas.. Rather be Dallas

                Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk
                Dallas made the play-offs the last decade or so... They've had a great run, especially before their title run.

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                • #23
                  serbiantiger8 wrote: View Post
                  Dallas made the play-offs the last decade or so... They've had a great run, especially before their title run.
                  Dallas have been perennial contenders with a chip.

                  Perennial contenders without one:
                  Nash Suns
                  Durant OKC

                  Having the success of either of those teams would be awesome, but not winning it all would be bitter sweet. I just wanna have a good group of guys who are easy to cheer for and make us proud.

                  If we went in every year and beat writers actually gave us a real chance to win, that hope would keep me happy.
                  "Bruno?
                  Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
                  He's terrible."

                  -Superjudge, 7/23

                  Hope you're wrong.

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                  • #24
                    I guess the real question is would you want to trade all your long term assets for a chance to win now (Brooklyn Nets) or would you rather continue to develop those long term assets and add to them to build a team that will always be in contention but night never win (Utah Jazz from the 90's) .

                    The problem with a short term/win now method is that if it backfires (and there is a big chance it could), the team could suck for a very long time as they won't have young assets to rely on. But if this works, man would it be fun.

                    Being in Toronto though I don't know how realistic the short term option would be as we'd have to hope and pray star players would want to team up and play in Toronto especially if they cleared their cupboards to get them. I want a championship though, and that's more important than being good but not great for a long time.

                    I guess I'd have more faith that a good team can become great with a little luck than a team can become great immediately and succeed. But if we had hindsight to work with, than give me the single win because that's what it is all about.

                    We've been celebrating Vince Carter's team getting to the second round for how many years? Imagine if they won it all.. wow that would be nice to talk about.

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                    • #25
                      Easily would choose the Larry O'Brien and 9 years of sucking over contending and knowing it would never happen. Why? "NBA champions" is a more elusive than than any other major sport - Only 8 teams in the last 30 years have won and only Dallas failed to repeat over that time and 1 of those were an underdog (Dallas) - meaning 7 teams own a whopping 93.3% of all championships during that time. Hell the Lakers alone own 26.6% of those championships.

                      I would easily choose 9 years of Milt Palacio's and Zan Tabaks and one chip over Atlanta, Utah, Phoenix, etc. Winning breeds winning and the fact that we can claim stake as a franchise that's done it puts us firmly on the 2nd tier in the eyes of free agents, the media, and front office talent. If you think a half-decade peak Vince Carter is the primary reason for the crop of young Canadian players compare that to baseball and the wave of Canadians that came out of the Blue Jays brief championship era....

                      Last point - If the Celtics aren't the Celtics how in god's name Kevin Love even considers them as a destination?!??!
                      When Tom Chambers dunks an NBA player gets their hops...

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                      • #26
                        Championship, because I'm old enough to remember the 90's Jays and the 90's Leafs, and no matter what when I think back on it I can see Joe Carter jump around those bases, or Devo start that shoulda-been triple play or Ed Sprague hit that pinch hit homerun, with the Leafs it's all these great memories that end with misery (Damn you Gretzky!!).

                        It especially sucks because I love hockey way more than baseball.

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                        • #27
                          JawsGT wrote: View Post
                          I'd take the perennial contender route. I would much more enjoy watching 10 straight years of competitive, conference contending basketball than one year of possibly winning a championship. I say possibly, because obviously we would never really know the outcome, and if we did, I wouldn't watch at all. 10/10 chances of making the Finals or conference finals is better than 1/10 of actually winning it IMO.

                          I'd rather say I supported a team that went to the playoffs for 10 straight years and was a threat to get to the conference finals in each of those years than say I supported a team that sucked for nine years but then went out and bought a winning team for 1 year, and then proceeded to suck again afterwards. The former would also present the greater challenge IMO. And I'm talking at least a conference contender here, not just a team that squeaks into the playoffs year after year with a low seed.

                          Those Blue Jays championships were awesome, but the wasteland before and after is a little depressing, no?
                          OP specifically said 50+ wins WITHOUT winning a championship.

                          If we could be a perennial contender with the chance to win a championship I'm sure everyone would choose that option.

                          It's basically would you rather be the Stockton-Malone Jazz or the Billups/Wallaces Pistons with less success bookending that one chip.

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                          • #28
                            planetmars wrote: View Post
                            I guess the real question is would you want to trade all your long term assets for a chance to win now (Brooklyn Nets) or would you rather continue to develop those long term assets and add to them to build a team that will always be in contention but night never win (Utah Jazz from the 90's) .

                            The problem with a short term/win now method is that if it backfires (and there is a big chance it could), the team could suck for a very long time as they won't have young assets to rely on. But if this works, man would it be fun.

                            Being in Toronto though I don't know how realistic the short term option would be as we'd have to hope and pray star players would want to team up and play in Toronto especially if they cleared their cupboards to get them. I want a championship though, and that's more important than being good but not great for a long time.

                            I guess I'd have more faith that a good team can become great with a little luck than a team can become great immediately and succeed. But if we had hindsight to work with, than give me the single win because that's what it is all about.

                            We've been celebrating Vince Carter's team getting to the second round for how many years? Imagine if they won it all.. wow that would be nice to talk about.
                            Again, the hypothetical doesn't work if you change the parameters. The OP states a guaranteed championship, not a gamble to win now with the possibility of losing.

                            It's not a question of team building philosophies as it is a question of what type of person you are. If you care more about the journey than the destination, you'll probably choose the perennial contender. If you care about the destination more, you'll pick the guaranteed title.

                            Both choices are subjective and personal. There really is no objectively correct answer without getting into a much bigger debate on the nature of sport and why we compete in the first place.

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                            • #29
                              Scraptor wrote: View Post
                              Again, the hypothetical doesn't work if you change the parameters. The OP states a guaranteed championship, not a gamble to win now with the possibility of losing.

                              It's not a question of team building philosophies as it is a question of what type of person you are. If you care more about the journey than the destination, you'll probably choose the perennial contender. If you care about the destination more, you'll pick the guaranteed title.

                              Both choices are subjective and personal. There really is no objectively correct answer without getting into a much bigger debate on the nature of sport and why we compete in the first place.
                              You've hit the nail on the head. Though it is a really tough question if you have to select one or the other, rather it be in hindsight(obviously easier for Raps fans cause we've dealt with all the shit forever), or trying to predict the future(Would you really be happy going forward with 1 season at say 7th seed, that we win the title and all the rest of the seasons are 20-30 wins)? I think it's just too easy for Raptor fans to say "Championship" for one year and 9 shitty ones, that's what we know.

                              Like Scraptor says, it's totally subjective and personal opinion, but I would at least prefer to believe that there's a shot at winning every season. It's a very long season and that's what we pay attention to the most.

                              I should have put a poll up, but I'd say I'm rather surprised that most folks would take the One Chipper route. And as somebody pointed out earlier in the thread, only a handful of teams have won the title in the last 30 years. Maybe that's why I temper my expectations, but it really is that hard to win it all.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Edgar wrote: View Post
                                Easily would choose the Larry O'Brien and 9 years of sucking over contending and knowing it would never happen. Why? "NBA champions" is a more elusive than than any other major sport - Only 8 teams in the last 30 years have won and only Dallas failed to repeat over that time and 1 of those were an underdog (Dallas) - meaning 7 teams own a whopping 93.3% of all championships during that time. Hell the Lakers alone own 26.6% of those championships.

                                I would easily choose 9 years of Milt Palacio's and Zan Tabaks and one chip over Atlanta, Utah, Phoenix, etc. Winning breeds winning and the fact that we can claim stake as a franchise that's done it puts us firmly on the 2nd tier in the eyes of free agents, the media, and front office talent. If you think a half-decade peak Vince Carter is the primary reason for the crop of young Canadian players compare that to baseball and the wave of Canadians that came out of the Blue Jays brief championship era....

                                Last point - If the Celtics aren't the Celtics how in god's name Kevin Love even considers them as a destination?!??!
                                What if the winning came in year 3 of 10, and then the team reverted to shit for the other 7?

                                Also, the Jays were a very good team from '83-'93. Just remember that only 2 teams from each league made the playoffs up til '93, so had they made playoffs in any of those years like teams can today, we may be looking at not 2, but maybe 3, maybe 4 maybe 5 maybe 6 maybe 7...just saying.

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