How much is Derozan worth in today's market? Is he max?

[raptors999]

LOL what? It's a fact that the west is stronger than the east. Last year was even more obvious. Not saying Hayward's worth max, but he's not worse than derozan.




Exactly. Again, not ragging on DD, but I'd like to see how did would do on last year's Jazz team who didn't have an actual PG. We've seen him struggle when he's the main focus.

Stronger doesn't mean better defensively. There some very poor defensive teams as well as fast paced offensive teams in the West.

[Pong]

Stronger doesn't mean better defensively. There some very poor defensive teams as well as fast paced offensive teams in the West.

Again, nope. You think the east is a defensive powerhouse?

If you look at opponent fg% leaders, 6 teams from the west are in top 10. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/te...oalPctOpponent

Not only that but the west teams are also offensively better. Bulls and pacers were amongst the league worst in offence. So basically west>east, no arguments about it.

And one last point I'd like to make. Raptors played in the Atlantic division against the likes of the great 76s, the almighty knicks, Celtics led by rondo in a suit, and the Nets which had such a splendid start to their year. While Utah's division had OKC, Portland, and Denver (wolves too but they're meh).

[raptors999]

It's not only FG% its also about pace. There are more slow paced defensive teams in the East than in the West. Pace effects individual stats because it leads to higher scores. The wide openness of the Western teams and higher scores has been historical. The West runs.

[BobLoblaw]

It's not only FG% its also about pace. There are more slow paced defensive teams in the East than in the West. Pace effects individual stats because it leads to higher scores. The wide openness of the Western teams and higher scores has been historical. The West runs.

Jazz play at snail pace.

[raptors999]

Jazz play at snail pace.

Jazz have a terrible defense especially when Favors is injured. Without defense teams can't dictate pace. When the Jazz tried to slow the game down they were getting crushed and Hayward was struggling. When they gave up on the season, his scoring went up as the losses starting piling up. On Charlotte he will have the same scoring problems he had early in the season. He isn't a half court scorer.

[BobLoblaw]

Jazz have a terrible defense especially when Favors is injured. Without defense teams can't dictate pace. When the Jazz tried to slow the game down they were getting crushed and Hayward was struggling. When they gave up on the season, his scoring went up as the losses starting piling up. On Charlotte he will have the same scoring problems he had early in the season. He isn't a half court scorer.

He was playing de facto point guard early in the season. Later in the season they added Trey Burke into the lineup. That's when Hayward started to play better and the whole team improved.

I'm not sure what argument you were making when you were talking about bloated stats lines in the West. The Jazz are a slow pace team, they've been such for years. If the argument is that Hayward's stats are bloated by pace, then it's not true. If that's not the argument, then I didn't understand it.

In general, he's a very nice player. A good defender, a solid playmaker for a wing, an athlete and a shooter. He's a very different player than DeRozan. He's not comfortable with midrange pull ups, but he's a better shooter and playmaker for others. Neither of them can be the main playmaker, obviously. Trey Burke was a great complimentary player to Hayward. Burke is the main ball handler and his main strength is midrange. That's a very nice fit, and no coincidence that they suddenly started playing better.

In general, first option on a team with terrible players is a different job compared to first option on a team with great complimentary offensive players. It's no wonder that Hayward struggled.

He's not a max player, but he's very good and he has upside. And again, current max =/= max in two years. These players are getting these big contracts because teams expect massive salary growth in the next couple years. Teams are simply jumping ahead and giving players like Hayward and Parsons extra 5 mil because while those contracts look silly now, they won't look silly in a couple years.

[Jamshid]

T.Ross better improve this year. With the phenomenon performance of DD in the play offs, I don't think any fool will again discuss the Ross vs DD again ( well, I know a few I guess ). Now Ross need to worry about JJ taking his minutes away.

[Pong]

It's not only FG% its also about pace. There are more slow paced defensive teams in the East than in the West. Pace effects individual stats because it leads to higher scores. The wide openness of the Western teams and higher scores has been historical. The West runs.

So now it's not about the 'weak' defences in the west that's leading to 'inflated' Hayward numbers, but because of the pace at which Utah plays at? Alright, as you can see from here: (http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/tea...ort/paceFactor) Utah is basically at the bottom of the league in terms of pace. Meanwhile 76ers led the league in pace and that's how Turner got his numbers. And that's why your comparison of Evan Turner playing on a bad team vs Hayward and Jazz is bad.

Any way, look I don't know what you're trying to get at any more. All i said was people underestimate Hayward because he's on a bad team and frankly, a team that's lost it's luster when sloan, dwill and boozer left. He may be just as good as DD if not better, and he put up some good numbers on a terrible Jazz team.

Even from a simple eye test, you can tell he's a smart, 2 way player who has good athleticism and all around ball skills. His skills and potential justifies teams bidding on him and he's worth big dollars. He isn't worth max, but the reason hornets are doing it is because they're a small market team that struggles to add talent and they're in real need of a starting SF since MKG stinks. They made big strides last year with al jef on the team and Kemba's growth. Adding hayward makes them a real solid team (remember how they beat us last year?).

Meanwhile, true that DD is an allstar and a good player. But as a SG who can't hit 3s, has average ball handling skills, and bad defense, it's hard to command that type of money in this market.

[imanshumpert]

How the hell is the defense in the West weak? Playing at a faster pace =/= bad defending. Spurs and Warriors are both uptempo teams and both have top 5 defenses.

The top 10 defenses are evenly split between the West (Spurs, Warriors, Clippers, Thunder, Grizzlies) and East (Pacers, Bulls, Bobcats, Raptors, Wizards). Not sure how the West is a worse defensive conference... that's just total flipping BS.

[imanshumpert]

DeRozan and Hayward are hard to compare because they excel at different things.

Hayward is completely incapable of handling the kind of scoring volume/offensive role that DeRozan is and we saw that this season where he had a role that was similar to DeRozan's in 12-13 and couldn't maintain his efficiency. That being said, Hayward is a better shooter and contributes more in terms of assists and rebounds.

Who's the better player has more to do with what you need on your team.

[BobLoblaw]

This Hornets thing is hard to get used to. People say Hornets and then they start talking about MKG or Al Jefferson and I have to stop for 5 seconds and re-read the whole sentence until I remember that the Hornets are Pelicans and the Bobcats are Hornets.

[Pong]

DeRozan and Hayward are hard to compare because they excel at different things.

Hayward is completely incapable of handling the kind of scoring volume/offensive role that DeRozan is and we saw that this season where he had a role that was similar to DeRozan's in 12-13 and couldn't maintain his efficiency. That being said, Hayward is a better shooter and contributes more in terms of assists and rebounds.

Who's the better player has more to do with what you need on your team.

Don't know if i'd say he's completely incapable. He was asked to to be a facilitator as well as a scorer last year on the jazz. We haven't seen him given a primary scoring role yet. Whereas Derozan is given the opportunity to focus on scoring because he's got guys like lowry, PP, ross, GV, Amir and JV.