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Thread: Patterson & Vasquez Overpay?

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    Default Patterson & Vasquez Overpay?

    Don't get me wrong I'm happy the band is back together but I feel it might have been a slight overpay for Patterson and a definite overpay for Vasquez! Going into the off season I figured Patterson would be in the range of 5-5.5M & Vasquez would be 4-4.5M so with 2Pat it's not much of a stretch given the market demands but with Vasquez he's getting much more than he's valued at imo. I get that Masai and him go way back but he really scratched Grevis's back on this one! I know some people are happy because it's only a 2yr contract and they think it will correlate with KD's free agency, etc. but again imo you easily should've got him on a 3yr for that same amount give or take 1 or 2M.

    Ultimately barring a trade we're down to the nitty gritty now before hitting the luxury tax and I still had hopes of landing both Blatche & Carter so every Mil counts. Masai is the man and I'm sure he's got still something in the works but I can't help but think his bond with Vasquez might've blinded him on that one. Thoughts?

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    Paterson was a great contract. $6 million for a guy like that on a 3 year deal is the best you can get. Also, given the health of Amir and that we did not have anyone else to really step up in that position if Amir is hurt ( high chance) , makes that contract a great one. You have to give MU credit for negotiating that contract.

    As far G.V. goes, given the teams' needs (SF and Back up C), number of guys we already have at PG Position, He really over paid G.V. ... I know people will think it is just 2 million ( I really don't think G.V. is worth more 4.5-5) but that is almost40-45% over the price. This was a bad contract.

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    Not an overpay by any means for either. With Vasquez your asking a player with options to play elsewhere as a starter to play the role of 6th man. If he's a backup pg, sure the price is steep, but that's about right for a quality 6th man in the NBA, and respectable for a lower tier starter in the league. *Edit -- they're not paying a backup point guard, they're paying a guy who also plays sg. Don't assume Lou is healthy.

    2Pat was offered the opportunity start as well. The market of stretch 4s is scarce. Stretch 4s who can defend are even scarcer. Basic Economics 101 tells us that if an object is scarce, the value of the object increases, tied to demand and market forces. Tie that in with the fact that he was still on his rookie scale contract and I would argue that 2Pat was grossly underpaid last year. Fortunately, Houston trades young valuable pieces and Sacramento appear to poorly value their low cost/ high value players.

    Also, don't mind Blatche, but worry about his lack of maturity. And VC should not come back as a player. Why can't Toronto cherish the best years of his career? I don't want to see the ACC booing him in a Raptors uniform because he goes all John Salmons all of a sudden. Appreciate what we had people!
    Last edited by blackjitsu; Thu Jul 10th, 2014 at 01:25 AM.

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    I really don't mind the contracts for GV and Patterson.

    Patterson 100% isn't an overpay. Maybe in comparison to previous seasons, but the way the values were being set on players this FA, I don't believe it's an overpay for either of them.

    If GV was strictly a backup PG, then sure, maybe a bit too much, but he also plays SG for us, as Casey likes Vasquez/Lowry lineups, allowing Lowry to play off the ball.

    IMO, it's a fair contract. Could it have been lower? Sure, that's great, but, i definitely don't think it's an overpay.

    Blackjitsu also highlights on the points about 2Pat and Vasquez, about the starting, and what-not.

    Also, we still have the Veteran Minimum, along with the MLE. I wouldn't mind bringing Blatche in. If we need some stops, throw in Hayes, but otherwise, I'd be happy with Blatche splitting time at PF and C, depending on what kind of lineup we're trotting out.

    He gives a nice push off the bench, when bench scoring was one of our issues last season. His defence might not be as good as some might like, but he's playing against 2nd Units, and I would assume he would be playing with Amir/2Pat, who are above average defenders that can help hide his shortcomings a little bit.

    I don't want VC back either.

    I'd love to be able to pick up Blatche and PJ Tucker, and then round it out with a 3rd String PG, just in case Lowry goes down or anything.

    FWIW, my perfect backup C is still Okafor, not Blatche, but I'd be content with Blatche.

    That would leave us with:

    Lowry/Vasquez/3rd String
    DeRozan/Williams
    Ross/Fields/Bruno
    Amir/2Pat/TH
    JV/BeBe

    2-Empty Roster spots, perfect for Blatche/Okafor, and PJ Tucker.

    Hopefully send out Fields/TH around the deadline for a pick or two, to help a team get under the cap, or to the cap.

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    Quote phiLLy wrote: View Post
    I really don't mind the contracts for GV and Patterson.

    Patterson 100% isn't an overpay. Maybe in comparison to previous seasons, but the way the values were being set on players this FA, I don't believe it's an overpay for either of them.

    If GV was strictly a backup PG, then sure, maybe a bit too much, but he also plays SG for us, as Casey likes Vasquez/Lowry lineups, allowing Lowry to play off the ball.

    IMO, it's a fair contract. Could it have been lower? Sure, that's great, but, i definitely don't think it's an overpay.

    Blackjitsu also highlights on the points about 2Pat and Vasquez, about the starting, and what-not.

    Also, we still have the Veteran Minimum, along with the MLE. I wouldn't mind bringing Blatche in. If we need some stops, throw in Hayes, but otherwise, I'd be happy with Blatche splitting time at PF and C, depending on what kind of lineup we're trotting out.

    He gives a nice push off the bench, when bench scoring was one of our issues last season. His defence might not be as good as some might like, but he's playing against 2nd Units, and I would assume he would be playing with Amir/2Pat, who are above average defenders that can help hide his shortcomings a little bit.

    I don't want VC back either.

    I'd love to be able to pick up Blatche and PJ Tucker, and then round it out with a 3rd String PG, just in case Lowry goes down or anything.

    FWIW, my perfect backup C is still Okafor, not Blatche, but I'd be content with Blatche.

    That would leave us with:

    Lowry/Vasquez/3rd String
    DeRozan/Williams
    Ross/Fields/Bruno
    Amir/2Pat/TH
    JV/BeBe

    2-Empty Roster spots, perfect for Blatche/Okafor, and PJ Tucker.

    Hopefully send out Fields/TH around the deadline for a pick or two, to help a team get under the cap, or to the cap.
    Blache isn't great but I can live with him. At the end of the day he's better than Hayes. Masai should give him the talking to him gave to Kyle lol. Hopefully that would work. Okafor is definitely better but at the same time we don't know what condition he's in after talking a whole year off because of injury. Is he even going to be close to the same player? Also I doubt we get PJ Tucker. Phoenix already made it clear they will match most offers for PJ. Unless we overpay him which we can't really do we won't get him. I like Chris Douglas Roberts but I seem to be the only one who does.

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    ugh some people in this thread disgust me. Why can't people just be happy we're bringing back the same group of guys and taking advantage of growing chemistry.

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    Quote truuth31 wrote: View Post
    ugh some people in this thread disgust me. Why can't people just be happy we're bringing back the same group of guys and taking advantage of growing chemistry.
    Who made you the harbinger of goodness? This a space for debate. If you're disgusted by people who dare to have a different opinion than you it's totally fine for you to not post here.

    Seriously. Most of us are adults. We understand the concept of chemistry. There are also economic concepts, basketball analytics to look at, and personal philosophies that we all carry about how basketball should be played.

    You can also just block everyone, but then, what's the point of that?

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    It disgusts you that people are cognoscente of team needs and future cap space?
    your pal,
    ebrian

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Who made you the harbinger of goodness? This a space for debate. If you're disgusted by people who dare to have a different opinion than you it's totally fine for you to not post here.

    Seriously. Most of us are adults. We understand the concept of chemistry. There are also economic concepts, basketball analytics to look at, and personal philosophies that we all carry about how basketball should be played.

    You can also just block everyone, but then, what's the point of that?

    Pleased the gang is all back, Guards as we know breakdown faster than 4s except for Amir's ankles. The real question, is what are the salaries for Lowry, Patterson and GV , are they equal or graduated. If they are graduated, than there is approx. 2.5 to 3 million dollars more monies available.

    Even if this is not the case, I believe that there is 4.35 million dollars left to choose from a back up SF and Center, unless BB is not in this season, which would than allow for 6 million dollars to be spent.

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    GV is an overpay, but 2 years is a steal... and he's incredibly important to DD and KL's health because they don't have to play insane minutes with him able to play 25-30 a game as their combined backup. 2Pat was a great contract. Ryan Anderson is making over 8 million a year, Frye is making 8, a young guy with potential and a similar skill set at 6 per? Great grab.
    @Boymusic66

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    I was expecting about 5M for each of them as well. But in the context of a 4 or 5 year deal. These shorter deals are great for flexibility, and the team has to give the player something back - slight increase in pay in this case. GV's deal is even shorter than Patterson's, so he got more of a pay hike.

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    GV should have gotten the Shaun Livingston MLE special, but then again, I guess GV's contract is shorter.

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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Not an overpay by any means for either. With Vasquez your asking a player with options to play elsewhere as a starter to play the role of 6th man. If he's a backup pg, sure the price is steep, but that's about right for a quality 6th man in the NBA, and respectable for a lower tier starter in the league. *Edit -- they're not paying a backup point guard, they're paying a guy who also plays sg. Don't assume Lou is healthy.

    2Pat was offered the opportunity start as well. The market of stretch 4s is scarce. Stretch 4s who can defend are even scarcer. Basic Economics 101 tells us that if an object is scarce, the value of the object increases, tied to demand and market forces. Tie that in with the fact that he was still on his rookie scale contract and I would argue that 2Pat was grossly underpaid last year. Fortunately, Houston trades young valuable pieces and Sacramento appear to poorly value their low cost/ high value players.

    Also, don't mind Blatche, but worry about his lack of maturity. And VC should not come back as a player. Why can't Toronto cherish the best years of his career? I don't want to see the ACC booing him in a Raptors uniform because he goes all John Salmons all of a sudden. Appreciate what we had people!
    Did he have offers to start on another team though? I didn't hear about any team putting that on the table. I do think he was slightly over paid, but it's fair considering it's only for two years.

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    Did he have offers to start on another team though? I didn't hear about any team putting that on the table. I do think he was slightly over paid, but it's fair considering it's only for two years.
    If the Bucks were going after him (which was rumoured iirc), he likely would've started there. With Kidd there as well it might've been an even more appealing destination.

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    Having the same team back isn't wht this team needs unless we are assuming there are vast amounts of improvement left for some of these guys. Thye were a flash in the pan first round exit team.....the fans made a bigger playoff impact than they did really.

    The signings basically put the team in this situation:

    derozan MUST keep up with his impressive rise to stardom....but he now has to do it EVERYnight, whil elearning to be a legit leader of men.

    JV has to, and I mean HAS to become better. He cannot plateau because if he does, its finished, they invested alot with him.

    Lowry simply needs to continue being him..... if he reverts, its over.

    GV has to show improvement. He has to become more reliable, and cut down on turnovers

    Patterson needs to really work on his outside shooting, like, get up 2000 a day from long range, he also needs to keep fit. He showed his value, and potential last year, he needs to meet that every night now.

    JJ. heh, he just needs to play hard, shut up and stay off the pot for 6 months, thats really all i ask of him, he's a horse.... just don't go all Neil Young on us and become Crazyhorse

    Terrence Ross. There is a common saying, talk is cheap. This. time to match all those good tings you say on the court Terrence. I will put it like this, if you feel playing well 1/5 games will do, than maybe your next contract should be 1/5th the amount. See what I'm saying? Time to man up kid, you got all the tools, but this whole I'm new, and its a steep curve shit won' tplay anymore.... I think he can do it.

    the rest of these guys..... meh....... scrubs and an Amir. there is n Amir on every team, you dont yell at um, and you dont expect um to carry the team they show up, play hurt, and hat all ya need because they show up every night.

    In the end, this team might be a 45 win team.... i think anyhow, 40-45. I think its a squad set up for something next offseason, likely a run a KD. I actually believe tis is a real 5 year build.... and that ujiri is simply trying to create repeatable culture and foundation. Its a good idea, because on the win column, well, nobody will be sleeping on Toronto this year, all you guys out there getting hyped for a 60 win season need to settle sown and face reality.

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    If you think there contracts are overpays, look at the other ridiculous deals doing around. Parsons and Hayward making absurd amounts...

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    Patterson is an underpay. GV maybe a slight over-pay. I have no issues with either, not like they put us into the tax or crippled our flexibility.

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    We seem to think that Masai is the one that controls all. It's the market. Orlando just had 2 ridiculous contracts in Gordon and Frye. Agents know their frames of references. Gordon + Frye = 41M vs. Patterson + Vasquez = 29M. Which would you rather have?

    PS> Longest contract is Frye's for 4 vs. Patterson's 3.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Quote Superjudge wrote: View Post
    Having the same team back isn't wht this team needs unless we are assuming there are vast amounts of improvement left for some of these guys. Thye were a flash in the pan first round exit team.....the fans made a bigger playoff impact than they did really.
    A quick note for you. With these signings, we are pretty much set for this year.

    But next summer, we project to have 15M in cap room to offer to a max-ish level guy, without losing anyone except our expirings (mostly dead weight like Fields, Hayes, Williams, Hansbrough, but also Amir). Then the year after we will have assets coming out our ears with a lot of flexibility cap wise.

    This year is and always has been a transition year. There just wasn't the ability to retain talent AND add talent. Next year there will be.

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    None of us have any real idea what the competition was for our players. Most of the forum wanted a 9-10/yr deal for Lowry at the end of the season. Now most believe his deal isnt so bad. If we thought that about 10 for 2Pat & GV would be acceptable then considering all the factors including some of the massive overpays happening with free agents, a 2.5 excess is not too bad especially if MU is still managing the cap to ensure all/most roster needs are met incl. future yr. cap availability. I have a feeling that GV will be an important trade chip in the year coming up...he is starter material especially for one of the lesser teams (apologies GV).

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