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Thread: Knicks>Raptors? Ryan Ruocco thinks so!

  1. #41
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote Primer wrote: View Post
    Derek Fisher was a much better defender than Jose ever was. Derek could play off the ball so much because Kobe handled the ball. Are the Knicks expecting Carmelo to be the primary ball handler, or Jose? I don't get the comparisons between Jose and Fisher, the only thing similar about them is they're both good 3pt shooters. Fisher was always a combo guard, which I thought fit the triangle much better than a pure point does.
    TLDR; I don't think Jose is a great fit for the triangle unless he's going to start playing like Kobe.
    I'm trying to remember younger Derek Fisher. I'm biased against Fisher because all I remember is slow as fuck old Fisher.

    I don't think Jose is a good fit anywhere unless his primary role is to take care of the ball and hit open shots. Or if he's going to playing against an opposing teams scrubs.
    Last edited by bryan colangelo; Sat Jul 19th, 2014 at 08:14 PM.

  2. #42
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    I encourage posters to listen to callers for Sirius XM 86 re Knicks. So many callers think they are closer to 54 win season two years ago than last year's team. Even Mike Dunleavy questions Raptors status in our division for this upcoming season.

  3. #43
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    Weird. All they did was resign the same guy they didnt make the playoffs with last year and that was Melos best season. New coach, brand new offence that won't work with ball stopping Melo and no center. All the makings for a terrible season.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic Starter bryan colangelo's Avatar
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Weird. All they did was resign the same guy they didnt make the playoffs with last year and that was Melos best season. New coach, brand new offence that won't work with ball stopping Melo and no center. All the makings for a terrible season.
    Calderon is an upgrade. But Dalembert and Bargnani ...

    Is there a vomiting emoji? How is this team going to stop anybody?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    Calderon is an upgrade. But Dalembert and Bargnani ...

    Is there a vomiting emoji? How is this team going to stop anybody?
    Has any team led by Melo ever stopped anybody?

    Considering the state of affairs when Phil took over, I think the Knicks made some good moves. Not necessarily going to make a big difference in their record next season likely, but good moves to position themselves going forward. If they can move Shump or JR for any rotation worthy big, then there team looks a lot better. Jose-THJr-Early-Melo is a group that can score and that is better than what they had last year.

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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    Calderon is an upgrade. But Dalembert and Bargnani ...

    Is there a vomiting emoji? How is this team going to stop anybody?
    Calderon may be offensive upgrade BUT Knicks D will be horrible.

  8. #48
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Knicks suck and I don't know who Ryan Ruocco is.

  9. #49
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    Knicks D relied way too much on Chandler next year, and even then, their defense was sub-par.
    With Chandler gone, they will be really exposed on defense.
    I don't think Stoudemire can play heavy minutes, and Jose, JR, Bargnani will get dominated night in and night out

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    Quote 2kfeen wrote: View Post
    Knicks D relied way too much on Chandler next year, and even then, their defense was sub-par.
    With Chandler gone, they will be really exposed on defense.
    I don't think Stoudemire can play heavy minutes, and Jose, JR, Bargnani will get dominated night in and night out
    Exactly. So many Knick fans don't see this coming.

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Has any team led by Melo ever stopped anybody?

    Considering the state of affairs when Phil took over, I think the Knicks made some good moves. Not necessarily going to make a big difference in their record next season likely, but good moves to position themselves going forward. If they can move Shump or JR for any rotation worthy big, then there team looks a lot better. Jose-THJr-Early-Melo is a group that can score and that is better than what they had last year.
    Nuggets in 2008-09 that went to the WCF had the 8th ranked defense. Were also in the top 10 the previous year.

    Melo is not the problem. If you surround Melo with the right personnel you can field a legitimate contender. Melo himself is not a bad defender, he's just OK on that end.

  12. #52
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Nuggets in 2008-09 that went to the WCF had the 8th ranked defense. Were also in the top 10 the previous year.

    Melo is not the problem. If you surround Melo with the right personnel you can field a legitimate contender. Melo himself is not a bad defender, he's just OK on that end.
    Point was more about how teams follow their leader. Melo is the leader of that team, so you shouldn't expect too much defence.

  13. #53
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    They will be an interesting team to watch I think. Great 3 point shooting with Hardaway Jr., Calderon, J.R. Smith, and Melo. If Bargnani ever contributes they will be a really high scoring team. If Stat comes back healthy then there is some low post scoring as well. Much like Golden State, they may not need to play good D to win.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Calderon will slow the pace down a bit, so he's not going to let them play wild, turnover prone ball.

  14. #54
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Point was more about how teams follow their leader. Melo is the leader of that team, so you shouldn't expect too much defence.
    This directly contradicts your point.

    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    Nuggets in 2008-09 that went to the WCF had the 8th ranked defense. Were also in the top 10 the previous year...
    Are you going to argue that Melo wasn't a leader on those 07-09 Nuggets?

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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    They will be an interesting team to watch I think. Great 3 point shooting with Hardaway Jr., Calderon, J.R. Smith, and Melo. If Bargnani ever contributes they will be a really high scoring team. If Stat comes back healthy then there is some low post scoring as well. Much like Golden State, they may not need to play good D to win.

    One thing to keep in mind is that Calderon will slow the pace down a bit, so he's not going to let them play wild, turnover prone ball.
    Under Jackson Golden State were a REALLY GOOD defensive team.

    Hollinger Stats - Defensive Efficiency
    RK TEAM PACE AST TO ORR DRR REBR EFF FG% TS% OFF EFF DEF EFF
    1 Indiana 94.9 16.0 14.3 24.9 76.8 52.0 49.0 53.5 101.5 96.7
    2 Chicago 92.7 17.7 14.2 27.2 75.4 51.7 47.1 51.8 99.7 97.8
    3 Golden State 98.5 17.5 13.8 25.1 76.3 51.1 51.7 55.0 105.3 99.9
    4 San Antonio 97.1 19.1 13.5 22.7 76.4 50.6 53.7 57.1 108.2 100.1
    5 Oklahoma City 97.9 16.7 14.0 26.5 75.6 52.2 52.0 56.6 108.1 101.0
    6 Charlotte 94.7 17.1 11.7 21.9 77.6 49.6 48.1 52.2 101.2 101.2
    7 LA Clippers 98.4 18.4 12.7 25.0 72.5 49.6 52.6 56.7 109.4 102.1
    Memphis 92.2 17.3 13.1 28.3 75.7 52.0 49.5 52.9 103.3 102.1
    9 Toronto 94.4 16.5 13.2 27.2 74.9 50.9 49.8 54.5 105.8 102.4
    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/tea...t/defensiveEff


    The NBA has announced the voting results for the 2013-14 Defensive Player of the Year award with two Golden State Warriors finishing in the top 10, adding yet another accomplishment to a historic season.
    http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/201...a-andrew-bogut

    Fantasies of Offense trumping Defense in the modern analytic age, are over-blown.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote blackjitsu wrote: View Post
    Under Jackson Golden State were a REALLY GOOD defensive team.



    http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/tea...t/defensiveEff




    http://www.goldenstateofmind.com/201...a-andrew-bogut

    Fantasies of Offense trumping Defense in the modern analytic age, are over-blown.
    LOL, wow, I stand corrected. I guess I should have been more specific to which year or better yet use a Mike D'Antoni team as reference. I should hope my point got across that the Knicks might be a team that relies on offense to win games this season, as they are stacked with guys that can put the ball in the hoop. Somebody fact check that for me!

  17. #57
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    LOL, wow, I stand corrected. I guess I should have been more specific to which year or better yet use a Mike D'Antoni team as reference. I should hope my point got across that the Knicks might be a team that relies on offense to win games this season, as they are stacked with guys that can put the ball in the hoop. Somebody fact check that for me!
    Define stacked?

    They haven't really gotten significantly better than last year offensively, have they? Jose makes them a bit better on the perimeter....but losing Chandler is even an offensive blow possibly. Who's gonna be the roll man in the p'n'r? Stoudemire? What happens if he's struggling with health again? Their offence will be nothing but jumpers and Melo post-ups.

    People sometimes point to Ellington....but he'll be behind Shumpert, JR Smith and Hardaway at the SG position.

    I mean, I'm not saying they're a bad offensive team. But I don't see how their O got any kind of significantly better so far this offseason, and I don't think they're any more stacked there than last year. They were 11th last season in team ORTG. Don't know if they really improve on that. Maybe they go up 2-3 spots...but they were 24th in DRTG, and that's likely to get worse.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    This directly contradicts your point.



    Are you going to argue that Melo wasn't a leader on those 07-09 Nuggets?
    I think you need to read the thread more carefully. I never made that second quote, but merely made the comment that Melo led teams aren't known for their defence, so people shouldn't expect much D from the Knicks anyway (regardless of Calderon addition and Chandler subtraction). The fact that someone pointed out a single statistical season where Melo's team finish top 10 doesn't change that. Whether it's a statistical anomaly or a fluke season, or whatever, it's all irrelevant to the general point. Melo doesn't try on D, so don't expect many of his teammates to. Adding Jose isn't going to kill the Knicks defensively because the Knicks were never going to be a great defensive team anyway.

  19. #59
    Raptors Republic All-Star Mediumcore's Avatar
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    Quote white men can't jump wrote: View Post
    Define stacked?

    They haven't really gotten significantly better than last year offensively, have they? Jose makes them a bit better on the perimeter....but losing Chandler is even an offensive blow possibly. Who's gonna be the roll man in the p'n'r? Stoudemire? What happens if he's struggling with health again? Their offence will be nothing but jumpers and Melo post-ups.

    People sometimes point to Ellington....but he'll be behind Shumpert, JR Smith and Hardaway at the SG position.

    I mean, I'm not saying they're a bad offensive team. But I don't see how their O got any kind of significantly better so far this offseason, and I don't think they're any more stacked there than last year. They were 11th last season in team ORTG. Don't know if they really improve on that. Maybe they go up 2-3 spots...but they were 24th in DRTG, and that's likely to get worse.
    I'm thinking they will be better because they will be more like the Knicks of two years ago when everyone was healthy and happy. If both Shumpert and Stoudamire are back to 100% and with Hardaway Jr. given a more prominent role and possibly J.R. smith reigned in by HOF GM, it could make the Knicks dangerous. Not to say everything will click but they have players that can score and really when Imask myself what was the difference between the Knicks last year and the year before all I can come up with was that they were dysfunctional not that they lost really good players.

  20. #60
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Mediumcore wrote: View Post
    I'm thinking they will be better because they will be more like the Knicks of two years ago when everyone was healthy and happy. If both Shumpert and Stoudamire are back to 100% and with Hardaway Jr. given a more prominent role and possibly J.R. smith reigned in by HOF GM, it could make the Knicks dangerous. Not to say everything will click but they have players that can score and really when Imask myself what was the difference between the Knicks last year and the year before all I can come up with was that they were dysfunctional not that they lost really good players.
    But are they going to be that kind of Knicks team?

    Stoudemire was actually healthier last year than two years ago. They relied more on defensive bigs like Chandler, Rasheed, Kenyon Martin...I think Kurt Thomas may have even been on their roster.

    Shumpert is not a good offensive player.

    Hardaway has only shown the ability to be a complementary piece, mostly an off-the-ball shooter.

    JR Smith is an unpredictable character who I don't think will ever really "get it".

    The players have changed pretty significantly over time with the Knicks, so it's hard to just say the change was a matter of dysfunction with the same group. Think that two years ago they had Chandler, Kidd, Camby, Novak...guys like Kenyon Martin, Rasheed Wallace, Kurt Thomas....all kinds of legit competitors/leaders who would not settle for a lack of effort. Now? Well they lost pretty much all their leaders and high character guys. Dysfunction arises when you lose leadership and accountability in the locker room. I don't see that situation significantly improving just because Phil Jackson is there. In the end it's usually the players who have to step up and create that culture. The coach and GM play a role in trying to get that to happen, but the biggest portion of responsibility is still on the players. And the Knicks have a cast of characters that makes me think they'll likely be closer to last year's Knicks than the team of two seasons ago.

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