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Thread: Knicks>Raptors? Ryan Ruocco thinks so!

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Point was more about how teams follow their leader. Melo is the leader of that team, so you shouldn't expect too much defence.
    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I think you need to read the thread more carefully. I never made that second quote, but merely made the comment that Melo led teams aren't known for their defence, so people shouldn't expect much D from the Knicks anyway (regardless of Calderon addition and Chandler subtraction). The fact that someone pointed out a single statistical season where Melo's team finish top 10 doesn't change that. Whether it's a statistical anomaly or a fluke season, or whatever, it's all irrelevant to the general point. Melo doesn't try on D, so don't expect many of his teammates to. Adding Jose isn't going to kill the Knicks defensively because the Knicks were never going to be a great defensive team anyway.

    I have read properly. What I'm saying is Melo was almost certainly a leader on those Nuggets' teams, and they were a fantastic defensive team, that automatically means the 1st bold is wrong, because there is a history of Melo-led teams being sound defensively.

    2nd bold, they were known for two, I don't know about you but 164 games of top 10 defense sounds, you know, more factual than your statement of "Melo-led teams aren't known for their defence."

    I do agree that the Knicks are going to be horrendous defensively, but not for the reasons you specified.

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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    I have read properly. What I'm saying is Melo was almost certainly a leader on those Nuggets' teams, and they were a fantastic defensive team, that automatically means the 1st bold is wrong, because there is a history of Melo-led teams being sound defensively.

    2nd bold, they were known for two, I don't know about you but 164 games of top 10 defense sounds, you know, more factual than your statement of "Melo-led teams aren't known for their defence."

    I do agree that the Knicks are going to be horrendous defensively, but not for the reasons you specified.
    Melo was a good defender at one point in his career. Now, not so much. With his injury history and weight issues expect a lot of hand waving defense.

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Melo was a good defender at one point in his career. Now, not so much. With his injury history and weight issues expect a lot of hand waving defense.
    Well according to dWS, he's actually stayed pretty much the same defensively. And has actually on average contributed 2.5 dWS per season.

    Last year he secured 2.5 Wins Defensively, which ranked him 66th out of 482 players.

    Yes, he's still an above average defender.

  4. #64
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Well according to dWS, he's actually stayed pretty much the same defensively. And has actually on average contributed 2.5 dWS per season.

    Last year he secured 2.5 Wins Defensively, which ranked him 66th out of 482 players.

    Yes, he's still an above average defender.
    Check youtube. Melo doesn't even try a lot.

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Well according to dWS, he's actually stayed pretty much the same defensively. And has actually on average contributed 2.5 dWS per season.

    Last year he secured 2.5 Wins Defensively, which ranked him 66th out of 482 players.

    Yes, he's still an above average defender.
    That last line ruins any credibility you had.

  6. #66
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    Yo I think the Knicks have the potential to be really good
    The 2012 50+ win squad had consistency in their shooters, and their playmakers

    Jason Kidd and Novak were great 3 point shooters, and when JR spotted up, he posted great shooting percentages from deep
    When they lost Jason Kidd & Novak, and had Felton playing floor general full time, you had a lot of iso ball and low percentage shots

    I think Jose could be the guy that can quell the iso-mentric mentality the Knicks got and get better looks for JR Smith. Ellington and Jose are both great shooters so this could help the offense as well. Losing Chandler loses a lot of defense, but you get rid of a locker room cancer in Felton.

    And I think Dalembert and Aldrich can sorta help the void that Chandler left.

    With limited assets, Phil is trying to rebuild the 2012 model that won them so many games and got them into the 2nd round.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    That last line ruins any credibility you had.
    Seriously, every single data point I've brought up tells me Anthony's at least a slightly above average defensive player, whose defensive reputation has likely been ruined in the media, leading to opinions like your own. I'm not saying you can't keep that opinion, but all the data, which is unbiased and fact, meaning you cannot argue with it, says that you're wrong.

    You and raptors999 haven't brought a single data set to back your own opinions up, you've brought up YouTube, and you've brought up my credibility apparently being lost, but no rational argument where you completely picked apart my argument and showed why Melo is a below average defender. Could you do that, please? Before telling me I have no credibility?

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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Seriously, every single data point I've brought up tells me Anthony's at least a slightly above average defensive player, whose defensive reputation has likely been ruined in the media, leading to opinions like your own. I'm not saying you can't keep that opinion, but all the data, which is unbiased and fact, meaning you cannot argue with it, says that you're wrong.

    You and raptors999 haven't brought a single data set to back your own opinions up, you've brought up YouTube, and you've brought up my credibility apparently being lost, but no rational argument where you completely picked apart my argument and showed why Melo is a below average defender. Could you do that, please? Before telling me I have no credibility?
    Synergy Statistics - Data collected and posted to mysynergysports.com. Synergy breaks down every play and determines the type of shot or offensive set. Statistics are shown in the format of*PPPrank. Points per play (PPP) is defined by the points allowed by the completion of a single play. Completion is simply a shot attempt, turnover, or getting to the free throw line. So, when Kevin Durant plays defense on the Pick and Roll on ball handler, he allows on average of 0.52 points per possession, good enough for fourth in the NBA. If you see "NR", this means that the player has not had enough defensive attempts to be ranked.

    Synergy Statistics

    PlayerIsolationP&R BallPost-UpP&R Roll ManSpot-UpOff ScreenHand OffKevin Durant0.5280.5240.73321.25NR0.87711.05471.29NRLeBr on James0.92940.5790.81NR0.88NR0.87710.63NR0.64NRPaul George0.67350.63230.77420.73NR0.89830.88271.21NRCa rmelo Anthony0.4750.72NR0.71261.43NR1.011661.47NR0.8NR

    Key Terms

    Steals*and*Blocks*are in per game averages.

    DRtg*or Defensive Rating is the number of points per 100 points the players team allowed while he was on court.

    DWS*or Defensive Win Shares is the approximation of the number of wins created (or lost) by the player.

    PPP*or Points per Play is the number of points allowed per defensive play when the player is specifically responsible for the ball. (see*http://mysynergysports.com*for reference data)

    DRAPM*or Defensive Regularized Adjusted Plus Minus is the defensive impact of a single player while he is on court. The units are in terms of points per 100 possessions. (seehttp://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/*for reference data) This is much different than traditional plus/minus as this metric attempts to solve the large set of equations in the form of:

    Target Player + mate1 + mate2 + mate3 + mate4 + opp1 + opp2 + opp3 + opp4 + opp5 + homecourt = +/-

    Basic Statistics

    TypeYearDurantJamesGeorgeAnthonySteals2013-141.51.32.00.9Steals2012-131.41.71.80.8Steals2011-121.31.91.61.2Blocks2013-140.80.30.30.7Blocks2012-131.30.90.60.5Blocks2011-121.20.80.60.5

    Advanced Statistics

    TypeYearDurantJamesGeorgeAnthonyDRtg2013-149810394109DRtg2012-1310010197108DRtg2011-1210197100102DWS2013-142.21.42.70.6DWS2012-135.34.76.32.0DWS2011-123.74.53.22.6PPP2013-140.810.810.780.88PPP(Rank)2013-14909056205DRAPM2012-132.31.63.1-1.7DRAPM2011-121.12.22.4-0.9

    Observations

    Kevin Durant*is a vastly underrated defender. For the last three seasons he has posted positive contributions in the advanced metrics listed below. His Synergy ratings are about on par with LeBron James in the overall sense... and it helps that he's an elite pick and roll ball (#4 overall) and isolation defender (#8 overall). He doesn't have enough attempts to register in the pick and roll man and handoff situations -- but with his +1.00 PPP rating in those categories, it might be a case where OKC tries to limit his exposure to those situations.

    LeBron James*is very well rounded defender, but talk about him being a DPOY the year candidate is vastly overstated. He's the only player listed here with every individual Synergy category below 1.00 PPP. He is an elite pick and roll ball defender (#8). If he is truly a "lock down iso defender", his Synergy Stats do not support this. He is above average at 0.92 PPP in isolation situations, but this is far from elite.

    Paul George*is the best of this group of players. Nearly every advanced statistic has George at or near the top for his size and position. With the exception of hand off situations, every Synergy Stat is below 0.90 PPP which is elite. Talks of George being a DPOY candidate is at best very well warranted or at worst a conversation starter that leads to Roy Hibbert winning it.

    Carmelo Anthony*fulfills most of our expectations here. His advanced statistics are well below league average and his Synergy ratings follow suit. He appears to be holding up very well in isolation situations (#5 overall) and post-up situations (best of the group), but his 1.01 PPP Spot-Up defense, and +1.4 pick and roll man and off screen defense drag his overall performance down.

  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Starter torch19's Avatar
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    The triangle offense is ideal for Melo as it puts him in situations/spots that cater to his strengths. Contrast to Mike Woodson's schemes, the triangle demands that all 5 players are ideally spaced out so that each option would trigger a series of actions. That would limit the ball watching while Melo iso's in the high post.

    The downside is that the triangle demands that all 5 players are mentally sharp at all times. They become thinkers with synchronized movements. Essentially, it asks that all 5 players make reads & execute one of the available actions instead of relying on the point guard to do most of the reads. Therefore, I'm assuming that it will take some time for every player in that roster to adjust to the system. It's a unique system & I predict that NY will struggle from the onset as they adjust.

    Defensively, they don't project to be very good. Offensively, they will struggle as they adjust. I just don't see them beating out the Raptors for the top seed in the Atlantic.
    “I don’t create controversies. They’re there long before I open my mouth. I just bring them to your attention.”

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  10. #70
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    I can't... read that... at all...

    EDIT: This is to raptors999.

  11. #71
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Seriously, every single data point I've brought up tells me Anthony's at least a slightly above average defensive player, whose defensive reputation has likely been ruined in the media, leading to opinions like your own. I'm not saying you can't keep that opinion, but all the data, which is unbiased and fact, meaning you cannot argue with it, says that you're wrong.

    You and raptors999 haven't brought a single data set to back your own opinions up, you've brought up YouTube, and you've brought up my credibility apparently being lost, but no rational argument where you completely picked apart my argument and showed why Melo is a below average defender. Could you do that, please? Before telling me I have no credibility?
    defensive stats are pretty worthless. most only look at blocks and steals.
    "Bruno?
    Heh, if he is in the D-league still in a few years I will be surprised.
    He's terrible."

    -Superjudge, 7/23

    Hope you're wrong.

  12. #72
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Seriously, every single data point I've brought up tells me Anthony's at least a slightly above average defensive player, whose defensive reputation has likely been ruined in the media, leading to opinions like your own. I'm not saying you can't keep that opinion, but all the data, which is unbiased and fact, meaning you cannot argue with it, says that you're wrong.

    You and raptors999 haven't brought a single data set to back your own opinions up, you've brought up YouTube, and you've brought up my credibility apparently being lost, but no rational argument where you completely picked apart my argument and showed why Melo is a below average defender. Could you do that, please? Before telling me I have no credibility?
    You've raised a single data line but anyone who has watched his game enough can tell you he isn't a defender. He doesn't hustle, he doesn't rotate, he doesn't play proper angles. He can guard smaller PF's who can't overpower him and bigger SF who aren't fast enough. Doesn't make him a good defender. If that isn't enough proof, then go watch the tapes. I don't need to prove anything to you.

  13. #73
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    You've raised a single data line but anyone who has watched his game enough can tell you he isn't a defender. He doesn't hustle, he doesn't rotate, he doesn't play proper angles. He can guard smaller PF's who can't overpower him and bigger SF who aren't fast enough. Doesn't make him a good defender. If that isn't enough proof, then go watch the tapes. I don't need to prove anything to you.
    Wow, look at that, I watched a video and found a great defensive play from Anthony.


    This is why we use data, data isn't biased.

  14. #74
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Wow, look at that, I watched a video and found a great defensive play from Anthony.


    This is why we use data, data isn't biased.
    Lol well that comment lived up to your user name at least. Have you ever watched Melo play? Have you ever seen him defend in a game? Cause if all you got is YouTube clips and random stats then you got nothing.

  15. #75
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    Lol well that comment lived up to your user name at least. Have you ever watched Melo play? Have you ever seen him defend in a game? Cause if all you got is YouTube clips and random stats then you got nothing.
    Dude, you are the one who told me to go check YouTube clips of him playing defense, it's in this very thread.

    Those "random" stats aren't "random". They're calculated. They have no opinion on the matter. They simply measure whose good at shit and who isn't, because humans are prone to bias, they are ALWAYS prone to bias, and we can't trust them to make good judgements from simply watching the tape, they may learn what's good and bad, but they'll always be bias, and never perfect. With stats, you at least have bias out of the way.

    I'd really want you to learn about these stats before you call me out for being an "idiot who knows nothing" or some other insult. And I'd rather this argument not fall into that insult cycle. But I digress.

  16. #76
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    Melo also plays a very important defensive position SF but doesn't defend. This is why he is a bad defensive player. Good SF are two way players or at least good on defense. This is why Melo is a PF now.

  17. #77
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Dude, you are the one who told me to go check YouTube clips of him playing defense, it's in this very thread.

    Those "random" stats aren't "random". They're calculated. They have no opinion on the matter. They simply measure whose good at shit and who isn't, because humans are prone to bias, they are ALWAYS prone to bias, and we can't trust them to make good judgements from simply watching the tape, they may learn what's good and bad, but they'll always be bias, and never perfect. With stats, you at least have bias out of the way.

    I'd really want you to learn about these stats before you call me out for being an "idiot who knows nothing" or some other insult. And I'd rather this argument not fall into that insult cycle. But I digress.
    I said check the tapes, as in, watch games of basketball, not YouTube clips showing 15 seconds of effort in a 48 minute game.

    Here's a nice easy stat for you then, Melo's man shot 45.8% from the field against him. That's worse than Demar (not known as a particularly good defender) and worse than Raymond "don't call me fat cause I carry firearms" Felton last season. Are you going to tell me that Felton is a good defender too?

  18. #78
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    Melo also plays a very important defensive position SF but doesn't defend. This is why he is a bad defensive player. Good SF are two way players or at least good on defense. This is why Melo is a PF now.
    Well, he's actually decent at defending PF's, specifically post-ups. I know he's not that great off the ball (not a good help defender), but give him credit for being a great on-the-ball defender.

  19. #79
    Raptors Republic Starter Mindlessness's Avatar
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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    I said check the tapes, as in, watch games of basketball, not YouTube clips showing 15 seconds of effort in a 48 minute game.

    Here's a nice easy stat for you then, Melo's man shot 45.8% from the field against him. That's worse than Demar (not known as a particularly good defender) and worse than Raymond "don't call me fat cause I carry firearms" Felton last season. Are you going to tell me that Felton is a good defender too?
    Carmelo Anthony played 62% of his minutes vs. a PF. PF's shoot around 50% from the field. (and if you adjust for guys like Kevin Love who shoot threes, they shoot around 51%) Carmelo is actually above average! But adjust for his other 38% at SF, and he is slightly above average.

    Wow.
    Last edited by Mindlessness; Wed Jul 23rd, 2014 at 08:32 PM.

  20. #80
    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote Mindlessness wrote: View Post
    Carmelo Anthony played 62% of his minutes vs. a PF. PF's shoot around 50% from the field. Carmelo is actually above average! But adjust for his other 38% at SF, and he is slightly above average.

    Wow.
    Carlos Boozer had a better rate, is he a great defender too? Enes Kantner is right there, a guy who lost minutes to Marvin Williams last year cause his D was so bad.

    How's this for Wow, Bargnani was better than Melo at forcing his man to miss!!!!! If Melo is a good one on one defender like you claim, then these stats are going right against that "strength".

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