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Thread: We're not getting Durant, how do we build a contender then?

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic All-Star stooley's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    But no one is advocating what Houston did either. Teams sign meaningful free agents all the time without having to make 3 or 4 trades beforehand just to clear room. And of course there's no guarantees in free agency (landing someone in the first place OR getting them to click with the existing team) but there's no guarantee that the team as assembled evolves into a contender either. That's why I'm suggesting that the team focus on developing what they have now while keeping an eye on ways to improve externally as well.

    I do think we're all pretty much on the same page as to what should and will be the plan for the next 1-2 years though; keep playing the asset accumulation/improvement game while building on what the team did last season, then use your cap room in the summer of 2015 to take the next big step forward. The key word in the OP's question is contender though, which I assume to mean one of the 5 teams in the league that has the best shot at being the champion. I'm not sure this current Raptors team gets close to that measure if you just let the thing play out organically.
    First off, changed something in your post.

    And I completely agree that it's stupid to pigeonhole yourself into one mindset. You always examine every opportunity to improve as it presents itself.

    And re:the last sentence, I don't think you just sit back and watch the team from here on out, but you don't change things just for the sake of change. If there's a clear upgrade, yes, but continuity does have its merits and it can be dangerous to mess with things like that, so that has to be taken into account.

    Lateral moves are not what we need. We aren't that guy on ebay trying to trade from a paperclip to a house, because there is such a thing as too many transactions, I think.
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  3. #22
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    You can win without a superstar but it becomes much harder.. you basically have to replicate what the Pistons team did that won in 2004. Create a team of all-star caliber players that hang their hat on defense and hope the team with the best player implodes due to lack of chemistry. But what really helps in the playoffs is to get an 'easy' score. That means scoring points in the paint or getting a guy a really good look for an open 3.

    That's done by ball movement and having a good post up man. That requires team chemistry (Spurs ball) and JV to grow into one of the best big men in the league (possible, but has a lot of work to do). Both are achievable and neither requires a super star.

    So we don't have to all crawl into a fetal position and start crying into our ice cream because we don't get Durant. It also doesn't mean we should stop chasing that dream though.. once you have a Durant you immediately become a contender.

    Ultimately for this team to get to that level it requires serious growth from JV.

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  5. #23
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    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    We already have 2 all-stars. Heat showed that having a 3rd one ruins your depth.

    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    The biggest piece to the puzzle is JV. If he can become a dominant 2 way center sky's the limit.
    But wouldn't that ruin your depth?

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  7. #24
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    I think the ideal scenario is to have an all-star caliber player at every position. Something that might actually happen for this team in the new future.

    Obviously none of our PFs are going to reach that level, but Lowry and DD are already there, Jonas should get there and Ross also has great potential. Combine that with flexibility in 2015 free agency to add a guy of that level at the 4 spot and it might be possible. After that it's about having great depth and a top 5 ranked offense and defense if possible.

    There are actually quite a few PFs in 2015 FA that we could/should be interested in:

    Paul Millsap
    Kenneth Faried (Restricted)
    Kevin Love (If he doesn't get traded and sign an extension)
    Tobias Harris (Restricted, could be a steal type signing here, this dude can play #StephenASmith)
    Thaddeus Young
    LaMarcus Aldridge (Highly unlikely he leaves)

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    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    But wouldn't that ruin your depth?
    He would still be on his rookie contract, so no.
    Myself (March 2014):
    The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

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    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    He would still be on his rookie contract, so no.
    Ok, just got to make sure not to re-sign him. We wouldn't want to hurt that depth.

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    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
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    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    Ok, just got to make sure not to re-sign him. We wouldn't want to hurt that depth.

    I'm not sure I'm getting your point. JV is definitely part of the core that I want to see grow together.

    What I oppose would be a move to trade JV (or Ross, DD, 2Pat, Bruno, Bebe, for that matter) for "talent" instead of grooming him into one.
    Myself (March 2014):
    The raptors are a tremendous young team and will win a championship in the following five years.

  11. #28
    Raptors Republic Rookie RepTdot's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I think the ideal scenario is to have an all-star caliber player at every position. Something that might actually happen for this team in the new future.

    Obviously none of our PFs are going to reach that level, but Lowry and DD are already there, Jonas should get there and Ross also has great potential. Combine that with flexibility in 2015 free agency to add a guy of that level at the 4 spot and it might be possible. After that it's about having great depth and a top 5 ranked offense and defense if possible.

    There are actually quite a few PFs in 2015 FA that we could/should be interested in:

    Paul Millsap
    Kenneth Faried (Restricted)
    Kevin Love (If he doesn't get traded and sign an extension)
    Tobias Harris (Restricted, could be a steal type signing here, this dude can play #StephenASmith)
    Thaddeus Young
    LaMarcus Aldridge (Highly unlikely he leaves)
    I truly believe, Masai is gonna bring in Faried next season at the 4...the manimal is his 1 ever draft pick and his find...physical, aggressive double double machine and will be only 25..

    the pieces are slowly being put together for us to GROW into a contender...JV development is the key as well as continued progress from DD & Lowry maintaining his play...Ross need to show that he can be more than a 3 & D guy this season otherwise he's upgradable as well..

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    Quote RepTdot wrote: View Post
    I truly believe, Masai is gonna bring in Faried next season at the 4...the manimal is his 1 ever draft pick and his find...physical, aggressive double double machine and will be only 25..

    the pieces are slowly being put together for us to GROW into a contender...JV development is the key as well as continued progress from DD & Lowry maintaining his play...Ross need to show that he can be more than a 3 & D guy this season otherwise he's upgradable as well..
    Actually Ross is perfectly fine as a 3&D guy. I just want him to be more consistent. There's no reason why Ross can't be as good as if not better than Wesley Matthews.

  13. #30
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote imanshumpert wrote: View Post
    I think the ideal scenario is to have an all-star caliber player at every position. Something that might actually happen for this team in the new future.

    Obviously none of our PFs are going to reach that level, but Lowry and DD are already there, Jonas should get there and Ross also has great potential. Combine that with flexibility in 2015 free agency to add a guy of that level at the 4 spot and it might be possible. After that it's about having great depth and a top 5 ranked offense and defense if possible.

    There are actually quite a few PFs in 2015 FA that we could/should be interested in:

    Paul Millsap
    Kenneth Faried (Restricted)
    Kevin Love (If he doesn't get traded and sign an extension)
    Tobias Harris (Restricted, could be a steal type signing here, this dude can play #StephenASmith)
    Thaddeus Young
    LaMarcus Aldridge (Highly unlikely he leaves)
    That's actually a pretty weak list if you ask me.

    Harris is a tweener and fits better as a SF I think, largely because of defensive position.

    Young is not going to push us into elite status.

    Faried is restricted, but also limited...probably wouldn't end up getting good value out of his contract.

    Love and Aldridge are just as much a pipe dream as Durant.

    That leaves Millsap, who's basically the only realistic option. He'll be 30 next summer too, and so there are definitely long-term concerns, but that shouldn't matter if his addition is a serious needle-mover.

    Quote BobLoblaw wrote: View Post
    They'll have to add an all star. Millsap seems realistic. Al Horford in 2016. Parsons in 2016 if he opts out. Not really an all star, but a brilliant fit offensively, he could have an impact of an all star for this team.

    It's been a while since I've looked at free agent lists. Durant, Love, Aldridge aren't likely. Horford, Millsap -- might be a chance. Rondo, Dragic, Marc Gasol, Hibbert, Conley, Al Jefferson, DeAndre Jordan, Asik - not a priority, unless there's a Jonas trade. Who else is available?
    Yeah, this is pretty much how I see things. Acquiring a Horford or Millsap is the more realistic type of star the Raps could acquire. And there are a lot of players who are marquee free agents in the next couple of years but don't fit our team at all.

    And I think if they aim for 2016 free agency, it's not a bad thing to at least throw the team into the mix for Durant just to show they made a play for him. Then target secondary guys like Horford. Another big but not huge name that summer is Nicolas Batum, so even if they went after a Millsap in 2015, I'd love for them to have another decent chunk of capspace in 2016 to pursue such a player.

    People always talk about superstars, but without one you might as well try to build the balanced team, because you're definitely not going to win paying non-superstars like superstars and hoping they turn into the latter. A roster with Jonas, Millsap/Horford, Batum, DeMar, Lowry, Ross, and Pat is a team I could see competing for the East.

    *Other than Batum and Parsons (I wonder about Parsons' cost if he will keep expecting to be paid like a max player, which he's obviously not), there's a risky option in Gallinari depending on whether he can come back strong from his injury troubles.

    **And if everything goes right, we may not need to add another wing. If Ross keeps improving and Bruno at least turns into a physical freak 3&D guy. Should still plan for the worst though.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 24th, 2014 at 12:54 PM.

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  15. #31
    Raptors Republic All-Star 007's Avatar
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    We could slip in and grab Millsap for a decent deal while everyone else is looking at Love and Aldridge and the others.
    The name's Bond, James Bond.

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    Quote RepTdot wrote: View Post
    I truly believe, Masai is gonna bring in Faried next season at the 4...the manimal is his 1 ever draft pick and his find...physical, aggressive double double machine and will be only 25..

    the pieces are slowly being put together for us to GROW into a contender...JV development is the key as well as continued progress from DD & Lowry maintaining his play...Ross need to show that he can be more than a 3 & D guy this season otherwise he's upgradable as well..
    Faried doesn't move the needle for us. He's a poor defender and hustle bigs are easily replaced.

    The answer to the OP is become the 2004 Pistons, as has been pointed out. It's sort of eerie:
    *Lowry has drawn Billups comparisons and was mentored last summer by Billups
    *Derozan's most consistent comparison has been Rip Hamilton

    So then:
    *Terrence Ross's arms are too short to be a Tayshaun Prince duplicate, but maybe he or James Johnson can fill this role
    *Patman offers some stretch big play but is closer to Okur than to Sheed unfortunately
    *Val would have to become a multiple DPOY-type candidate like Big Ben

    Personally I think Val can offer more O and less D than Big Ben.

    Either the 3 or the 4 are the positions to target an upgrade. Considering we'll have solid cap space in 2015 I think the world is our oyster.

  17. #33
    Raptors Republic Superstar planetmars's Avatar
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    Only real reason why the PF needs to be upgraded is because of Amir's weak ankles. He is a good defender and doesn't require the ball. If you introduce a ball dominant big man that could hurt JV and would create turmoil when you have ball dominant guards who like the shoot the ball.

    If we need to upgrade the PF spot because we can't rely on Amir's health then the only way I could see that happening is via a trade (Millsap is there but he'll be expensive).. and the best trade asset we have is Terrence Ross. Moving him then forces us to look at a SF again. The good news is we have Bruno who might be able to contribute by 2016 allowing us to move Ross for a PF upgrade.

    The problem with 2016 is going to be DD and JV's cap hold.. so we can't really wait until 2016 to make an upgrade via free agency unless we let DD go or do some fancy S&T. I am fine by over paying for Millsap, or seeing if Atlanta would consider a Ross/Horford swap (or any other starting caliber PF) otherwise use the money to get a decent player we can swing in a trade later in the year or in 2016.. someone like Young, Green, Deandre Jordan, Robin Lopez, etc

  18. #34
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote Scraptor wrote: View Post
    Faried doesn't move the needle for us. He's a poor defender and hustle bigs are easily replaced.

    The answer to the OP is become the 2004 Pistons, as has been pointed out. It's sort of eerie:
    *Lowry has drawn Billups comparisons and was mentored last summer by Billups
    *Derozan's most consistent comparison has been Rip Hamilton

    So then:
    *Terrence Ross's arms are too short to be a Tayshaun Prince duplicate, but maybe he or James Johnson can fill this role
    *Patman offers some stretch big play but is closer to Okur than to Sheed unfortunately
    *Val would have to become a multiple DPOY-type candidate like Big Ben

    Personally I think Val can offer more O and less D than Big Ben.

    Either the 3 or the 4 are the positions to target an upgrade. Considering we'll have solid cap space in 2015 I think the world is our oyster.
    Bruno Caboclo's arms are even longer than Prince's.

  19. #35
    Super Moderator thead's Avatar
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    I don't think we need to worry about PF as much as you guys think we do.

    Patterson is going to play himself into that starting role this season
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    I'm not sure how a contender will be built.

    I know one thing: I'm going to enjoy the ride.

    This isn't OTPP running a cash cow anymore.
    This isn't BC selling a plan/vision\ only to reverse course 4-5 months later.


    Raptors have lots of good pieces and flexibility moving forward.
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  22. #37
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Quote thead wrote: View Post
    I don't think we need to worry about PF as much as you guys think we do.

    Patterson is going to play himself into that starting role this season
    Well Pat will have to prove it this year then. So far he's looked every bit like a high-quality role player, not a high-quality starter.

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  24. #38
    Raptors Republic Veteran white men can't jump's Avatar
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    Remember we're also talking about adding another all-star talent (if possible). PF isn't a problem for us, but that doesn't mean it can't be stronger.
    Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Jul 24th, 2014 at 01:46 PM.

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  26. #39
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    Quote OptimalOptimist wrote: View Post
    Our core is still young and everybody (but DeMar, but can you honestly see him leaves?) is signed for a couple of years.

    We are pretty much were the Pacers were couple years ago when they took the Heat to 7 games.
    Except you know........ the Pacers actually won a round or 2 in the playoffs. Raps have done nothing thus far but lose to a division opponent that ended up behind them in the regular season.

    And the 2 all stars you were referring to earlier? You have 1 fringe all-star, who has not achieved any perennial all-star status and another player who is trying to just get an all-star nod (in his late 20's) at a tough position (Wall, Irving, Rose, Rondo, etc).

    Great enthusiasm about the Raps nowadays everywhere you go, but typical fan response of overvaluing of what they actually have talent wise.

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  28. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter OptimalOptimist's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Except you know........ the Pacers actually won a round or 2 in the playoffs. Raps have done nothing thus far but lose to a division opponent that ended up behind them in the regular season.

    And the 2 all stars you were referring to earlier? You have 1 fringe all-star, who has not achieved any perennial all-star status and another player who is trying to just get an all-star nod (in his late 20's) at a tough position (Wall, Irving, Rose, Rondo, etc).

    Great enthusiasm about the Raps nowadays everywhere you go, but typical fan response of overvaluing of what they actually have talent wise.
    I haven't been a Raptors fan for long but to me it seems like the total opposite. It seems like years of loosing prevent them from seeing any sort of positivety. The "trading Demar" trend was a perfect exemple of that.

    The Pacers made stupid decisions and continue to do so. Let Stephenson go? For 9 mill a year? Max to HIBBERT? Raptors also don't have the finacial commitment that Indiana made last couple of seasons towards overpaid/overrated role players.

    You know that the Raptors were 2 points off a first round win despite having less playoff experience as a TEAM than Paul Pierce did? That they were the only team in the playoff starting 2 sophomores?

    DD hasn't been a perrenial all-star? Of course for god sake he's only a 24 years old improving every season. Lowry at this point of his career his the best PG in the eastern conference.

    I could say that your comment is a typical being stucked in the past fan response.
    Myself (March 2014):
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