Israel-Palestine

[Joey]

Im afraid that I dislike learning about Israel-Palestine from youtube video demonstrations as they are either polarized to one side or the other. I cant stand pro-Israeli videos, as much as I can't stand pro-Palestinian videos.

I like reading Wikipedia and checking their sources

I didn't learn from the video, it just sums up the facts nicely. And facts are facts. Its all there.

[enlightenment]

I didn't learn from the video, it just sums up the facts nicely. And facts are facts. Its all there.

Facts can be portrayed in a narrative fashion that distorts the reality. Also, many facts can be omitted. Presentations of facts =/= the facts themselves.

Wiki gives a great run down of the facts, talks about everywhere from Arab pogroms of Jews, to Jews forcing emigration of 600,000+ Arabs, to the 3 main armed Jewish groups and their terrorist activities (who even fought between themselves before collating into the IDF), to British restrictions of Jewish immigration, etc.

One thing that the video posted earlier seems to represent, is that the Zionists were somehow already a powerful armed group before arriving into Palestine, and came as a wave of colonization over the Arabs. However, from my research it seems that the Zionists were first immigrants under a uniting doctrine and few resources, who had to improvise their way to becoming a military power capable of defeating the Arabs, and eventually protecting Israel after its creation from the invasion of 7 surrounding countries. It was much more guerrilla than it was an army of colonists.

All in all, I refer to Israel-Palestine as a 100 year long territorial conflict between two mutually-exclusive national interests. The Israelis won after 1948 and were able to win every battle since then. Please notice how I am not saying that it is good, only that it is a fact. The world has seen its fair share of geopolitical conflicts through its history, and this one is no more special than the rest.

[Heatdreamer]

War is not sanitized , the reality is very dark unlike video games , collateral damage exists in all wars. Genocide is the eradication of a specific group - not collateral damage. The USA had unbelievable high colleral damage in Persian Gulf 1 & 2.
The Drone programme that existed in Pakistan nether regions had extremely high collateral damage .
Russia don't even discuss their collateral damage in Afghanistan. However none of these were considered genocide.
Usually genocide is attributed and correctly to Rwanda and Sudan in our modern times. Is ISIS committing genocide ( not that I support them) , I think there is the possibility with how Christians and Shias are being treated.
Isreal has collateral damage issues with Hamas and Gazans, not genocide intent.
Europeans have forgotten WW2 - where cities such as Dresden were bombed into oblivion - as a reaction of the 100 per day V1 rockets sent to attack Great Britain. More people were killed in the short time period than the same in this conflagration.
Words and phrase terminology are a justification of the individual's philosophy .

[Heatdreamer]

Yup. A lot of kids still can be saved. This conflict needs few days humanitarian ceasefire asap.

The conflict does not require a ceasefire, this conflict requires a truce and than a honored resolution which both parties will accept and abide by.
However the philosophies of the antagonists are so disparate - the resolution unlike the Palestinians in the West bank and Isreal could be very difficult to achieve.
An actual economy could be developed in the West Bank as long as funds are not siphon by the rulers of Fatah. The people must enjoy the benefits of the economic support. Fatah took that money, Hamas accepted the funds and put most of the funds into rockets and Tunnels. Develop economies which will help your people.
The natural gas boom in the Levant can help all people providing a vibrant life for the next two generations if and only if the philosophies of the warring groups can want a different future than what is today's reality.

[rocwell]

The conflict does not require a ceasefire, this conflict requires a truce and than a honored resolution which both parties will accept and abide by.

Please. This conflict is far away from long-term truce. The best they can do right now is work at least on the short term ceasefire.

Israel allegedly bombed UN shelter tonight. Crazy.

[Joey]

Please. This conflict is far away from long-term truce. The best they can do right now is work at least on the short term ceasefire.

I believe what Heatdreamer is saying though, is that Ceasefires are nothing but a stop-gap. They literally accomplish nothing except ask both sides to not shoot each other for a little bit. That's the only agreement that is made. No actual resolutions get made and the can gets kicked a little further down the road. There needs to be real diplomacy or this will continue forever.

[Heatdreamer]

I believe what Heatdreamer is saying though, is that Ceasefires are nothing but a stop-gap. They literally accomplish nothing except ask both sides to not shoot each other for a little bit. That's the only agreement that is made. No actual resolutions get made and the can gets kicked a little further down the road. There needs to be real diplomacy or this will continue forever.

Not only will it continue , it will become more deep seeded, even the left to moderates in Isreal and the West bank are becoming more polarized and neither party will move to the necessary required solution.
My concern that there is neither accountability for actions that are mutual. Isreal as a state is told to be accountable whereas the same expectation of Hamas is less.
The talking heads of all parties remind me of two children in the school yard - my parent is better than yours argument. In a younger age I experienced this scenario and the solution that had to be Was determined by a higher body.
The solution though determined was not resolved for another two decades, this is why a ceasefire is inconsequential, and only pacifies the baying herd.

[rocwell]

I believe what Heatdreamer is saying though, is that Ceasefires are nothing but a stop-gap. They literally accomplish nothing except ask both sides to not shoot each other for a little bit. That's the only agreement that is made. No actual resolutions get made and the can gets kicked a little further down the road. There needs to be real diplomacy or this will continue forever.

Short term truce would be goldmine for normal Palestinians. Sure, short-term truce will not change Israel's opinion on military action, but UN experts would have an opportunity to find better shelter places. Away from tunnels and stuff. Present shelter places were chosen in a rush and many people died because of that.

I believe Israel will engage in diplomacy talks after every terrorist tunnel is destroyed. West must start putting pressure on Israel right now.. they've been way too quiet... Israel got perfect air defence system, but their ground and air attacks on Palestinian is like... "WE DON'T GIVE A FUCK".

[rocwell]

UN just released statement that half a million people are made homeless, medical supplies ran out, morgues overflowed and another UN shelter bombed.

These people need help omg..

[rocwell]

About that bombed shelter:

UN says they school-shelter info has been provided to Israel army MULTIPLE TIMES.

Another war crime committed.

[Heatdreamer]

War is war. Accept that as a reality , there have been 7 ceasefires for humanitarian purposes. Hamas has not maintained any of them. Isreal will come to the table I believe within a week.
The terms will not be what everyone accepts.
The rhetoric that is read here is as irrelevant as are the talking heads. Tone that done and a constructive foundation for the humanitarian timeout will occur.
The Isreali public is hugely supportive of their gov't which as not been the case in the past. Influence of Europe on the Isreali govt is inconsequential. Isreal has always been a pariah of the United Nations from 1950s.
So President Obama can try as much as he may, but he has expended much political capital and energy over the past 6 years against Isreals govt. that unfortunately is the reality of the major govt. Putin has his interest in dealing with the Sunni Arab League which is strongly against Hamas. China can make statements but have technological relationships with Isreal while maintaining oil relationships with every country in the Middle East. So the geopolitical world does not seem to be aligning with your wants.

[Bendit]

All of a sudden? "All" Palestinian land?

Can I ask how much you know about the history of Israel? Millions of Jews lived in that region before 1948. There were 2 things that occured:

1) Vast immigration of Jews between the 1890s and 1940s
2) Territorial and ethnic clashes between Arab and Jewish populations

The British were in control of the region at the time that they refused Jews immigrating there, to the point of sticking some in camps. Jewish terrorism commenced against the British at this time. Constant ethnic warfare between the Arabs and Jews caused the world to rethink the situation under British control, and the Brits themselves no longer wanted to deal with the conflict.
You can argue with the UN borders all you want, but when you say 'ALL' and 'all of a sudden', you seem to be missing over 100+ years of history.

I believe you are wrong about the bolded...or applying a very liberal population guesstimate of the territory.

Please view the info in link below:

http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.ca/

[Joey]

One thing that the video posted earlier seems to represent, is that the Zionists were somehow already a powerful armed group before arriving into Palestine, and came as a wave of colonization over the Arabs.

You must not be speaking about the video I posted as the 2nd comment in this thread, because it definitely does not paint that picture at all. It does, however, paint the accurate picture that ever since 1895, Zionists have seen the Palestinian people as nothing but an obstacle in the way of a Jewish state. Which wasn't even a thing to the rest of the world at the time, I might add. No other religion has its own country.

All in all, I refer to Israel-Palestine as a 100 year long territorial conflict between two mutually-exclusive national interests. The Israelis won after 1948 and were able to win every battle since then. Please notice how I am not saying that it is good, only that it is a fact. The world has seen its fair share of geopolitical conflicts through its history, and this one is no more special than the rest.

The Israeli's (who didn't actually exist at the time, you mean Jewish people) didn't win anything in 1948... except the Worlds sympathy due to the holocaust, which lead to the UN vote to split a Sovereign nation in half, and give the Larger (better) half to a people who have been hell bent on removing the Palestinian people from their own land for 100 years.

[Superjudge]

yep.

[Niagara Raptor]