Israel-Palestine

[rocwell]

One Israeli official calls for concentration camps in Gaza. Are we coming back to '40s because of some stupid and crazy muslims? Or maybe there's other agenda like.. Israel wants the land for it's natural gas? If they actually go ahead with concentration camps then I'm damn sure I'll call Israel and Hamas - terrorist organisations!

U.S and UK better fix this before it's too late!

[enlightenment]

The Israeli's (who didn't actually exist at the time, you mean Jewish people) didn't win anything in 1948... except the Worlds sympathy due to the holocaust, which lead to the UN vote to split a Sovereign nation in half, and give the Larger (better) half to a people who have been hell bent on removing the Palestinian people from their own land for 100 years.

I said "after 1948" and I was referring to the invasion of the 7 immediate neighbours into Israel, which the Israelis did win.

[enlightenment]

I believe you are wrong about the bolded...or applying a very liberal population guesstimate of the territory.

Please view the info in link below:

http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.ca/

I concede to being stupidly ignorant of the actual numbers of Jews. There were hardly a million souls west of the Jordan river, at the time.

I would like to point out that Arab immigration into Palestine was also a thing, and that Palestine before the 1900s had fewer than 600,000 people.

[enlightenment]

hell bent on removing the Palestinian people from their own land for 100 years.

http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.ca/

You can see that 100 years ago the population of Palestine was less than 1 million people. The Arabs immigrated to the region in the same magnitude and during the same time as the Jews. Don't pretend that all those Arabs were ancient 'Palestinians', or else I could refer to all those Jews who immigrated at the same time, as Palestinians as well. If you look at the skirmishes between the 2 populations, you don't see one group "hell bent on removing" the other, you see constant tensions leading to constant attacks from both sides as they both increased in population and fought for control of the terrain.

This included pre-Israel massacres of both Jewish and Arab civilians.

After 1948, approximately 700,000 Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, on the land the UN declared was Israel. This was the beginning of the 2 state solution, and a day after Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Arab Legion, and the Arab Liberation Army, all invaded this land. This is called the war of independence which the Jews won.

I am not saying anything about this is GOOD, only that it happened, and the history of the world has always been about who wins the war.

[Joey]

http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.ca/

You can see that 100 years ago the population of Palestine was less than 1 million people. The Arabs immigrated to the region in the same magnitude and during the same time as the Jews.

That graph does NOT show that at all ... it shows that 100 years ago there was 700,000 Palestinian arabs, and less than 100,000 Jewish peoples. By 1924, we're at basically 800,000 arabs, and still barely 100,000 Jewish peoples.
As you can also see, going back to 1850, when there was nearly 300,000 arabs and ZERO Jewish peoples.
Which also just so happens to Line up perfectly with the Time Line presented by the video I keep referring to.

Don't pretend that all those Arabs were ancient 'Palestinians', or else I could refer to all those Jews who immigrated at the same time, as Palestinians as well.

Completely disagree. Palestine has nearly always been historically arab. Whether Ottoman or otherwise, they were not Jewish.

If you look at the skirmishes between the 2 populations, you don't see one group "hell bent on removing" the other, you see constant tensions leading to constant attacks from both sides as they both increased in population and fought for control of the terrain.

That's still exactly what I see. The Zionists have, since their inception in the late 1800's wanted the Palestinians gone. Eradicated. Moved from their land. Palestinians had no hatred for Jewish peoples until they started forcing them off their lands.

After 1948, approximately 700,000 Palestinians were kicked out of their homes, on the land the UN declared was Israel. This was the beginning of the 2 state solution, and a day after Iraq, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Arab Legion, and the Arab Liberation Army, all invaded this land. This is called the war of independence which the Jews won.

Fully aware. Which is basically what they're still pissed about.

I am not saying anything about this is GOOD, only that it happened, and the history of the world has always been about who wins the war.

Right, so going back to my original point, how does any of this justify Israels continued occupation of Palestine?

[raptors999]

That graph does NOT show that at all ... it shows that 100 years ago there was 700,000 Palestinian arabs, and less than 100,000 Jewish peoples. By 1924, we're at basically 800,000 arabs, and still barely 100,000 Jewish peoples.
As you can also see, going back to 1850, when there was nearly 300,000 arabs and ZERO Jewish peoples.
Which also just so happens to Line up perfectly with the Time Line presented by the video I keep referring to.



Completely disagree. Palestine has nearly always been historically arab. Whether Ottoman or otherwise, they were not Jewish.



That's still exactly what I see. The Zionists have, since their inception in the late 1800's wanted the Palestinians gone. Eradicated. Moved from their land. Palestinians had no hatred for Jewish peoples until they started forcing them off their lands.



Fully aware.



Right, so going back to my original point, how does any of this justify Israels continued occupation of Palestine?

What are the chances that this dispute will be settled by this board before preseason? 50%, 60%. Would be nice to have a peaceful middle east in 8 weeks.

[Joey]

What are the chances that this dispute will be settled by this board before preseason? 50%, 60%. Would be nice to have a peaceful middle east in 8 weeks.

Hahaha We'll get it sorted out. Pretty sure we've got leveler heads and better educated people here discussing it than in the US government.

[rocwell]

We'll have a peaceful middle east after next world war.. Unless Russia and China decides to team up and wipe U.S of the face of the earth.

I'll be pissed at Einstein if one day some fuckers decide use nuclear bomb on my head

[Joey]

We'll have a peaceful middle east after next world war.. Unless Russia and China decides to team up and wipe U.S of the face of the earth.

Well then something to note on this matter, is that Israel is one of the 5 UN countries not to have signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty ... along with Pakistan, North Korea, India and South Sudan. Good company Israel. Israel has Nukes and no one knows how many.

[raptors999]

We'll have a peaceful middle east after next world war.. Unless Russia and China decides to team up and wipe U.S of the face of the earth.

Would be weird looking south and seeing Mexico but can't see any other problems though if it happens. I don't really watch TV and most movies suck.

[enlightenment]

Completely disagree. Palestine has nearly always been historically arab. Whether Ottoman or otherwise, they were not Jewish.



That's still exactly what I see. The Zionists have, since their inception in the late 1800's wanted the Palestinians gone. Eradicated. Moved from their land. Palestinians had no hatred for Jewish peoples until they started forcing them off their lands.


Right, so going back to my original point, how does any of this justify Israels continued occupation of Palestine?

1st bold: You mistook my point, I was saying that the majority of the population of Arabs in Palestine appeared during the same time period that the majority of the populations of Jews appeared. Those Arabs are just as authentic Palestinians as are those Jews, the historic Palestinians number less than 600,000.

2nd bold: How can you prove that? Who can say who attacked who first? Back up the point that Jews cared for expansion and forced the combat, over the other hypothesis that the Jews and Arabs had mutual tensions which erupted into war.

3rd bold: Whose trying to justify occupation? You called the entire land Palestinian, and thats what I am arguing with. Refer to my point about Arab population growth occurring at the same time as Jewish population growth, because that shows that the only Palestinians who have a historical right to the land are the original 600,000 Palestinians, and they only had a claim on the land they were settled on. Many places, like Tel Aviv, were built on uninhabited Desert purchased by Jews from Arabs:

[raptors999]

How funny would it be the majority of people on this thread aren't from the Middle East. Just Scandinavians who know a lot about Isreali-Hamas politics and who frequent Toronto sports forums.

[Joey]

1st bold: You mistook my point, I was saying that the majority of the population of Arabs in Palestine appeared during the same time period that the majority of the populations of Jews appeared. Those Arabs are just as authentic Palestinians as are those Jews, the historic Palestinians number less than 600,000.

Because 700,000 Palestinians in 1914 can't have Children? That population growth was not just due to Immigration, but natural Population growth. Whereas the other growth is specifically showing Jewish Immigration.

2nd bold: How can you prove that? Who can say who attacked who first? Back up the point that Jews cared for expansion and forced the combat, over the other hypothesis that the Jews and Arabs had mutual tensions which erupted into war.

Its not a matter of proving it. Its just true. Hamas, PLO etc. all are based on the principle that Palestine should be Palestine and not split into Israel, West Bank and Gaza.

“If the Jews had come to Palestine willing to fuse their life and culture with Arab life and culture, to accept the language of the majority, to contemplate the possibility of being some day ruled by that majority, then it is conceivable that they might have been as welcome and successful in Palestine as their ancestors in ‘Iraq or Egypt or Spain in the early days of the Diaspora. But it would have been wholly unreasonable to expect such an attitude on their part. It would have been the direct negation of Zionism, both on its social or political and on its cultural side.

The Zionists came back to Palestine, on the one hand, to escape from an alien environment, to shake off the shadow of the ghetto, to free themselves from all the drawbacks of ” minority life “. On the other hand, they came back inspired with the faith that the Jewish genius, restored to its old home, could do things comparable with the things it had done in ancient days, Necessarily, therefore, the Hebrew language had to be the language of the National Home: necessarily Jewish nationalism was intensified by its foundation.

Enlightened immigrants might take a highly sympathetic interest in Arab life and culture: but there could be no question of a Jewish fusion or ” assimilation ” with it, still less of a subordination.. The National Home could not be half-national. Nor, it need hardly be said, was the idea of the Arabs acquiescing on their side in a fusion of Arab with Jewish culture more imaginable, To quote the Arab delegates of 1922 again ‘Nature does not allow the creation of a spirit of co-operation between two peoples so different ’.* (Peel Commission p. 62)”
http://palestineisraelpopulation.blogspot.ca/

3rd bold: Whose trying to justify occupation? You called the entire land Palestinian, and thats what I am arguing with. Refer to my point about Arab population growth occurring at the same time as Jewish population growth, because that shows that the only Palestinians who have a historical right to the land are the original 600,000 Palestinians, and they only had a claim on the land they were settled on. Many places, like Tel Aviv, were built on uninhabited Desert purchased by Jews from Arabs:

But once again, just because a whole bunch of people immigrate to a country, doesn't mean they can then form their own seperate country within it. Which is again, where the Palestinian ire comes from.

[rocwell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rmed_conflicts

God bless those crazy people

[Bendit]

Its not a matter of proving it. Its just true. Hamas, PLO etc. all are based on the principle that Palestine should be Palestine and not split into Israel, West Bank and Gaza.


But once again, just because a whole bunch of people immigrate to a country, doesn't mean they can then form their own seperate country within it. Which is again, where the Palestinian ire comes from.

The PLO/Fatah have conceded that Israel has a right to exist. Hamas would still at a minimum not want it to be a "Jewish state" (one state for all) and the general consensus is that permanent borders be drawn up per 1967 lines.

The "intractable" problems for a 2 state solution are or seem to be best I can tell:

1. Jerusalem be divided between Israel & new Palestinian state
2. Jewish settlements built on Palestinian land beyond the 1967 borders which screws with the contiguity of the West bank territory.
3 Water rights
4. A connection (road) between Gaza & West Bank
5. Most contentious: return of those Palestinians who had property in Israel proper/right of return. The US I believe has offered much $$ to assist with this but it is of course an emotional issue.
6. And then there is the guarantee of Israel's security.

Many if not all points have had some element of understanding reached ...but yet this bs keeps going on and on and..

I would also mention that there is much belief and writings available re Israel's position in the creation of Hamas. Google and find it. Long story short, Mossad helped in this as a countervail to Arafat's increasing power and so the old divide & conquer and here prolong what is inevitable. And then Karma jumps and bites a few years down the road with Hamas being the nightmare. Israel shoulda stuck with the secularist PLO just like Bush shoulda stuck with the secularist Saddam and held his nose.

As an aside...coincidentally, I came across and now watching a BBC 8 part (each 60 min) series (sophisticated writing and well made) with this problem as backdrop ...with a real good cast. Just 6 parts are available as of now and well worth seeing as well as entertaining. It's called "The Honourable Woman".