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  • #16
    rocwell wrote: View Post
    EDIT: by the way, I'm not pro-Israeli or Pro-Palestinian. Even stupid people understand that both parties committed war crimes.
    If you are remotely interested in the conflict or world history or geopolitical machinations you should read up on the issues leading to the current chasm (not just the Gazagoing ons) between Palestinians and Israel. You will probably come up with a decision. My own take is that all of the Islamic inspired conflicts over the last 30 years approx. emanated from the lack of a solution to the Palestinian homeland problem/lack of. Terrorists are being created as we speak/write ....and the world is paying for this.
    Last edited by Bendit; Sat Aug 2, 2014, 02:45 PM.

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    • #17

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      • #18
        Joey wrote: View Post
        I'm not sure its a matter of Hamas not caring, I'd say its more a matter of where else are these people going to go?! Israel "warms" them to leave, moments before an air strike, and yet continues to close border crossings to these people, continue to confine them to an open air prison, continue to limit how far their boats can go off shore before blowing them out of the water. I'd say that is what's unacceptable here.
        When Hamas breaks ceasefires, and uses them strategically to kidnap Israeli soldiers, they are pushing any 'Peace' agenda far from likelihood. How likely would Israel agree to other ceasefires if Hamas treats them as part of their strategy? That is how they endanger their own civilians. By not working within the conditions of peace agreements.
        Last edited by enlightenment; Sun Aug 3, 2014, 01:20 AM.
        The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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        • #19
          Joey wrote: View Post
          Lets also be clear that these are Israeli defined borders. Not UN defined borders. So really, Palestinians are just trying to break into their own land.
          Those are borders AGREED upon by Palestinians and Israel. Gaza was given to Palestinians after the 2nd intafada, and all occupying forces were removed from the region. Gaza has specific borders by what was given to the Palestinians. Anyways, do you think those tunnels are 'to break into their own land', or do you think those tunnels are there for Hamas soldiers to attack Israel?
          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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          • #20
            enlightenment wrote: View Post
            Those are borders AGREED upon by Palestinians and Israel. Gaza was given to Palestinians after the 2nd intafada, and all occupying forces were removed from the region. Gaza has specific borders by what was given to the Palestinians. Anyways, do you think those tunnels are 'to break into their own land', or do you think those tunnels are there for Hamas soldiers to attack Israel?
            Right, and yet, it was ALL the Palestinians land before. And now all of a sudden someone is telling them where they can live on their own land??

            And I wouldn't say Palestinians agreed, per se. Because that's what this is all about.

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            • #21
              Turns out 'kidnapped' soldier has been killed based on evidences found in the field. Burial place is unknown.

              I wonder how many kids would have been saved..

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              • #22
                enlightenment wrote: View Post
                When Hamas breaks ceasefires, and uses them strategically to kidnap Israeli soldiers, they are pushing any 'Peace' agenda far from likelihood. How likely would Israel agree to other ceasefires if Hamas treats them as part of their strategy? That is how they endanger their own civilians. By not working within the conditions of peace agreements.
                You act like Israel is following the book of the law in all of this? Israel has broken SO many Human Rights laws you can't even keep track of them all. Israel has done the exact same thing by storming Palestinian lands, during a ceasefire, and "arresting" hundreds of Palestinians. No different than kidnapping.

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                • #23
                  rocwell wrote: View Post
                  I wonder how many kids would have been saved..
                  Do you mean like Palestinian children? Israel has killed hundreds.

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                  • #24
                    Joey wrote: View Post
                    Do you mean like Palestinian children? Israel has killed hundreds.
                    Yup. A lot of kids still can be saved. This conflict needs few days humanitarian ceasefire asap.

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                    • #25
                      Joey wrote: View Post
                      You act like Israel is following the book of the law in all of this? Israel has broken SO many Human Rights laws you can't even keep track of them all. Israel has done the exact same thing by storming Palestinian lands, during a ceasefire, and "arresting" hundreds of Palestinians. No different than kidnapping.
                      Both parties committed war crimes. It's obvious. Israeli should have come up with better strategy in destroying tunnels, but it's Israeli, what you can't expect 'leniency' from them.

                      I just so pissed that they ambushed Israeli army when ceasefire started. so many lives would have been saved if not stupid ambush.

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                      • #26
                        Joey wrote: View Post
                        You act like Israel is following the book of the law in all of this? Israel has broken SO many Human Rights laws you can't even keep track of them all. Israel has done the exact same thing by storming Palestinian lands, during a ceasefire, and "arresting" hundreds of Palestinians. No different than kidnapping.
                        Did I mention that Israel is being good? I didn't say that nor do I believe that. I made a comment that NO ONE IS LOOKING OUT FOR THE GAZAN CIVILIANS. Please don't try to fit me in to one of those "pro" or "anti" boxes, I try to be a realist and I think Ive been good with my facts so far.

                        Do I really need to qualify my criticism of Hamas with 'Oh, and Israel is bad too" every time? I will if it stops you from polarizing this discussion.
                        The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                        • #27
                          Joey wrote: View Post
                          Right, and yet, it was ALL the Palestinians land before. And now all of a sudden someone is telling them where they can live on their own land??

                          And I wouldn't say Palestinians agreed, per se. Because that's what this is all about.
                          All of a sudden? "All" Palestinian land?

                          Can I ask how much you know about the history of Israel? Millions of Jews lived in that region before 1948. There were 2 things that occured:

                          1) Vast immigration of Jews between the 1890s and 1940s
                          2) Territorial and ethnic clashes between Arab and Jewish populations

                          The British were in control of the region at the time that they refused Jews immigrating there, to the point of sticking some in camps. Jewish terrorism commenced against the British at this time. Constant ethnic warfare between the Arabs and Jews caused the world to rethink the situation under British control, and the Brits themselves no longer wanted to deal with the conflict.
                          You can argue with the UN borders all you want, but when you say 'ALL' and 'all of a sudden', you seem to be missing over 100+ years of history.
                          The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                          • #28
                            enlightenment wrote: View Post
                            Did I mention that Israel is being good? I didn't say that nor do I believe that. I made a comment that NO ONE IS LOOKING OUT FOR THE GAZAN CIVILIANS. Please don't try to fit me in to one of those "pro" or "anti" boxes, I try to be a realist and I think Ive been good with my facts so far.

                            Do I really need to qualify my criticism of Hamas with 'Oh, and Israel is bad too" every time? I will if it stops you from polarizing this discussion.
                            Fair points. Apologies if you feel like I was slotting you into an opinion.
                            I didn't feel like I was, more just trying to present the point that seemed to be missing.

                            Its not a matter stating "Israel is bad", its that your criticisms have mostly been with Hamas in all of this, except for "This doesn't mean they have a right to kill innocents, and I think its horrid its gotten to that point. But just don't forget that it takes 2 to tango, and that when you poke the tiger, you get bit." It does sound like you're sympathies do lie with Israel. Which is absolutely valid and fair, as you are able to back it up.

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                            • #29
                              enlightenment wrote: View Post
                              All of a sudden? "All" Palestinian land?

                              Can I ask how much you know about the history of Israel? Millions of Jews lived in that region before 1948. There were 2 things that occured:

                              1) Vast immigration of Jews between the 1890s and 1940s
                              2) Territorial and ethnic clashes between Arab and Jewish populations

                              The British were in control of the region at the time that they refused Jews immigrating there, to the point of sticking some in camps. Jewish terrorism commenced against the British at this time. Constant ethnic warfare between the Arabs and Jews caused the world to rethink the situation under British control, and the Brits themselves no longer wanted to deal with the conflict.
                              You can argue with the UN borders all you want, but when you say 'ALL' and 'all of a sudden', you seem to be missing over 100+ years of history.
                              I'm fully educated actually. Watch the documentary I've posted above about the Zionist movement. Covers it all. And it was horrible and disgusting. Long before 1948. You're right.

                              But before 1948, Jewish settlers owned about 5% of the land. After 1948 they got over 50%.
                              Last edited by Joey; Sun Aug 3, 2014, 02:51 AM.

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                              • #30
                                Joey wrote: View Post
                                I'm fully educated actually. Watch the documentary I've posted above about the Zionist movement. Covers it all. And it was horrible and disgusting. Long before 1948. You're right.
                                Im afraid that I dislike learning about Israel-Palestine from youtube video demonstrations as they are either polarized to one side or the other. I cant stand pro-Israeli videos, as much as I can't stand pro-Palestinian videos.

                                I like reading Wikipedia and checking their sources
                                The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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