Why do Raptors fans think we are better than Wizards and Hornets?

[ezz_bee]

I'm not sure the Raptors are better than the Wizards or Hornets. We are definitely going to get the 4th or higher (because of the titanic division) but in terms of records I think that all 8 playoff teams (sorry was counting Pacers... I guess that leaves 7) are going to be ridiculously close in terms of season records. The only two teams who have a chance at distancing themselves from everyone else are the Cavs and Bulls, but the Cavs need to incorporate Lebron with their young guys (or Love and Lebron) and Chicago needs to incorporate Rose. If those two teams take a month or two to start rolling, the East could be a delicious blood bath.

I think that all of these team's have a realistic shot of ending up with the 3rd best W-L records

Chicago (underachieves)
Cavs (Underachieves)
Raps (Meets Expectation)
Wiz (Meets Expectation)
Hawks (Meets Expectation)
Hornets (Meets Expectation)
Heat (Meets Expectation)
Indy (unfortunately the George injury drops them out of contention for the 3rd seed, and probably out of the playoffs altogether).

I think that all of those 5 teams are expecting to have the 3rd best record in the East.

[ezz_bee]

What about chemistry?

Around the trade deadline last year, I felt like people were hyping up the Pacers to become the next great dynasty with the additions of Evan Turner and Bynum. But they absolutely imploded and, despite making it to the ECF, they failed exactly at the moment they were supposed to succeed in: beating the Heat and getting to the finals.

Nobody, and I mean NOBODY was hyping the Pacers as a dynasty. A bunch of people (myself included) had the Pacers as the slight favourite win the Eastern Conference, but getting to the Finals is a FAR cry from a dynasty. And those of us who had the Pacers as a slight favourite didn't have them their because of Turner and Bynum. They were there because they played the Heat to 7 games in the previous post-season, their core players were younger and still on the uptick (with the exception of David West), whereas the Heat were older and didn't get better in the off-season (they lost Mike Miller, and all their old men were one year older), that fact is what explains the difference between a hotly contested 6-7 game finals (last year) and a quick destuction in 5 games (this year). A lot of people question the Bynum decision (although I liked it because it kept the Heat from getting him). And pretty much everyone was skeptical of the Turner for Granger move (including me) although Granger didn't seem to do a whole lot for the Clippers.

Wall and Beal complement each other very well, but so do Derozan and Lowry. I don't think there is a GM on the planet that would take Lowry over Wall at this stage of their careers.

The Wizards are solid. I don't value Nene or Gortat over JV and Amir that much but I think they have much more solid, experienced depth up front. Even Pierce has proven that his size can be still be a problem for a lot of 3s.

To me, the Wizards and Raptors are pretty much even. I do think the minor moves we made will improve our bench significantly but we are going to be be punished for not having a big bruising center off the bench

100% agreed. Although, if your were playing the hypothetical one year and one year only game, I think the league would be pretty split on which PG they wanted. I wouldn't even be surprised if more of them took Lowry. It's a toss up between who was better in the regular season (although Lowry's stats are slightly better in overall), but if you compare how they did in the playoffs it's a no contest. Not only does Lowry destroy him in the stats department, for those of us who watched the games it was obvious that Lowry was our main guy; whereas, John Wall was a huge negative in several stretches of important games. Now it was Wall's first playoffs so it's expected. Two years from now Wall will be the better player for sure, but unless Lowry was playing for a contract (and why come back to the Raps if all he was looking for was the pay day?) I think there's a good chance he out plays Wall again this year.

[OptimalOptimist]

Most discussion I've seen around here has recognized the similar trajectories of the Horncats and the Whizzards. Don't think many are assuming the Raps are ahead of these teams by much. A couple key injuries last year and the Raps could have just as easily finished 7th.

All that said, the East is gonna be fun this year. I'm glad the ECF is up for grabs.

A couple key injuries to any starters on the Hornets or the Wiz would have the same effect...

Lowry is currently better than Wall. Wall couldn't shoot for shit vs the Pacers as they sag off him and he was more of a negative than a positive. He will sort things out, but Lowry is overall better than Wall as of now.

Lowry > Wall
Demar > Beal
Ross = Pierce
Amir = Nene, one is better on offense, the other on defense.
JV < Gortat, Although that could change soon as JV is improving and Gortat is aging.

[Letter N]

PJ Hairston and Lance wing tandem will be good enough in terms of Spacing issues. Yes, PJ is rookie but be minded dude was playing in the D League last year and was tearing it apart. he is way ahead of other rookies when it comes to adjusting to the game speed and the NBA grind. But if PJ's knucklehead clashes with Lance's knucklehead, then there goes it all for the Hornets. LOL.

i think they will be a drama filled team to watch next season. much more drama than the INDIANA team from last year.

NBA needs a Hard Knocks TV show.

[Heatdreamer]

You are assuming no growth in DD , PP, TRoss and JV . Nene always sustains injury. Gortat reached his peak. Wall and Beal are talented- but consistency is not guaranteed. Paul Pierce is a scorer but will play 22 minutes and who knows about Porter's NBA game

Time will tell

[psrs1]

Otto Porte Jr hasn't done anything of significance yet.

[IROR]

You could make a case for each team being "best" of this group.

Washington appears to be the best on paper, but Pierce is not going to contribute what Ariza did. Martell Webster is out for most of the season with back surgery. Otto porter is unproven, I don't care how he looked in Vegas. This lack of depth will hurt them against the top teams, especially if injuries becomes a factor with any of their "big 3," Wall, Beal and Gortat.

Charlotte is improved, no doubt. Al Jefferson is hard to contain for any team and they have depth at guard now. But on paper this team still looks the least scary out of the 3. Loss of McBob is huge for their offence and Stephenson could go either way without a legit running mate like Paul George on the wing.

I guess I'm just saying the Raps have more depth and no glaring weakness in their lineup (relative to Wiz and Hornets). I worry about a regression on defence, but apart from that I would take the Raps in a playoff series over Wash or Cha all biases aside.

And I don't understand your assessment of the raps as a middling, treading team. We have as much/more young talent than both Wash and Cha? And more draft picks over the next 2 yrs.

[BallaBalla]

What about chemistry?

Around the trade deadline last year, I felt like people were hyping up the Pacers to become the next great dynasty with the additions of Evan Turner and Bynum. But they absolutely imploded and, despite making it to the ECF, they failed exactly at the moment they were supposed to succeed in: beating the Heat and getting to the finals.


I love our team right now because of the characters and the selflessness that each of them display. They developed a culture, an attitude of playing with passion, and it reflected with the Raptors going 42-22 after the Rudy Gay trade.

So why not? The Hornets and Wizards are great, but honestly, they were good last year as well. The Raptors still pulled of a 3-1 series win vs. the Wizards, but always came up short vs. the Hornets. Knowing this team, I highly doubt Lowry and Derozan will go into any game vs. the Hornets without knowledge of that fact, and they will lead the team to victory.

What I truly love the most about the Raptors is the fact that they continue to grow as players, and I am expecting bigger and better things from our young guns next season.

exactly.

It's hard for skeptics to believe, but we control our own fate especially when it comes to the regular season. If we grow with no egos, build on what we had, and everyone improves, we will be a top 3 team in the east.

There's too much of an emphasis on "paper teams". I think the spurs proved last year that chemistry, experience, and a team that actually enjoys playing together wins every time.

I think people shoudl ask themselves these questions:

1. how do wall and beal grow together? Does beal start to get frustrated with wall or vice versa if they start to lose some games? maybe they both think they should be the guy?

2. is nene even healthy, and if he is, does he care enough during the season to be able to impact the game?

3. does gortat get enough touches during the year?

4. how good are they with pierce instead of ariza? That's a major change to their lineup, and it might not be positive.

These are all things we theoretically don't have to worry about. They do

I feel pretty good about next year

[BallaBalla]

P.S.

the hornets don't deserve the respect of this thread as of yet. We had to fight almost 10 years to get back to this point. Just because they get lance stephenson, they're supposed to be better than us? they are a full tier below us as a team.

[stooley]

exactly.

It's hard for skeptics to believe, but we control our own fate especially when it comes to the regular season. If we grow with no egos, build on what we had, and everyone improves, we will be a top 3 team in the east.

There's too much of an emphasis on "paper teams". I think the spurs proved last year that chemistry, experience, and a team that actually enjoys playing together wins every time.

I think people shoudl ask themselves these questions:

1. how do wall and beal grow together? Does beal start to get frustrated with wall or vice versa if they start to lose some games? maybe they both think they should be the guy?

2. is nene even healthy, and if he is, does he care enough during the season to be able to impact the game?

3. does gortat get enough touches during the year?

4. how good are they with pierce instead of ariza? That's a major change to their lineup, and it might not be positive.

These are all things we theoretically don't have to worry about. They do

I feel pretty good about next year

I agree that the raptors are better, but I think this is a biased point of view.

What if Lowry regresses after a contract year. How about Patterson and Vasquez?

What if Amir's body can't hold up?

What if Jonas and Ross don't improve much?

What if Casey's defense collapses again (like it did in his second year)?

[GLF]

I agree that the raptors are better, but I think this is a biased point of view.

What if Lowry regresses after a contract year. How about Patterson and Vasquez?

What if Amir's body can't hold up?

What if Jonas and Ross don't improve much?

What if Casey's defense collapses again (like it did in his second year)?

All true. But you can use the contract year thing with Gortat, you can use the body holding up thing with Nene, you can use not improving much with Beal, Wall and Porter and the defense collapsing can be a worry the Wizards have as well. This is why i am saying we are both in the same boat. None of us can sit here and say we are for sure better or Washington is for sure better. We are too even to do that. But we can all hope that Toronto is better obviously and continue to root for them.

[stooley]

All true. But you can use the contract year thing with Gortat, you can use the body holding up thing with Nene, you can use not improving much with Beal, Wall and Porter and the defense collapsing can be a worry the Wizards have as well. This is why i am saying we are both in the same boat. None of us can sit here and say we are for sure better or Washington is for sure better. We are too even to do that. But we can all hope that Toronto is better obviously and continue to root for them.

Oh, I completely agree that we're in the same boat.

[S.R.]

A couple key injuries to any starters on the Hornets or the Wiz would have the same effect...

The Raps health last season was incredible among their starting 5. Out of the 82 game schedule:
- Kyle Lowry = 79 GP
- DeMar DeRozan = 79 GP
- Amir Johnson = 77 GP
- Jonas Valanciunas = 81 GP
- Terrence Ross = 81 GP

Bobcats and Wizards did both have slightly worse health than the Raps, which was kind of my point. Nene missed almost 30 games (typical), MKG missed 20, and in general a few more games missed here and there than for the Raps (see above) whose biggest injury problem was PP missing 12 games (I think). None of this losing a starter for 20-30 games stuff.

All that and the Raps only finished ahead of the Whizz by 4 games and ahead of Charlotte by 5. Let's not forget while comparing the "success" of last season that Washington also made the second round by beating 4th seeded Chicago. That's a significant step further than the Raps.

Small stuff, really, but a good reminder to temper expectations a bit. The competition in the EC should be good this year.

[iblastoff]

kinda funny that no one cares what otto porter did in vegas but someone sees a single good pass from the other brazilian in a summer league game and all of a sudden he's a bonefied big-to-big passer with a ton of potential?

i've had a lot of arguments about the whole wiz vs raps stuff and i don't think we're obviously better than they are (nor do i think they're obviously better than we are). the wiz lineup has been shaken up a bit more than ours. i still think wall/beal > lowry/derozan.

for what its worth, BR has projected the wiz winning 51 games while we stay at 48.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2...agency/page/14

[iblastoff]

The Raps health last season was incredible among their starting 5. Out of the 82 game schedule:
- Kyle Lowry = 79 GP
- DeMar DeRozan = 79 GP
- Amir Johnson = 77 GP
- Jonas Valanciunas = 81 GP
- Terrence Ross = 81 GP

Bobcats and Wizards did both have slightly worse health than the Raps, which was kind of my point. Nene missed almost 30 games (typical), MKG missed 20, and in general a few more games missed here and there than for the Raps (see above) whose biggest injury problem was PP missing 12 games (I think). None of this losing a starter for 20-30 games stuff.

All that and the Raps only finished ahead of the Whizz by 4 games and ahead of Charlotte by 5. Let's not forget while comparing the "success" of last season that Washington also made the second round by beating 4th seeded Chicago. That's a significant step further than the Raps.

Small stuff, really, but a good reminder to temper expectations a bit. The competition in the EC should be good this year.

no no no. its not because the wiz were doing good, its cause chicago were horrible! etc etc excuses i keep seeing on this board.