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Thread: DeMar DeRozan or Klay Thompson - Who you got?

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    I'll stick with Demar, because he gets to the line a lot and he's already on our team. If it was a draft though, I'd rather the other guy have to chose. Thompson is also young and improving. It's just so hard to tell how much of Klay's success is due to the Curry effect.
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    I like Derozan b/c he can create his own shot which is essential to a #1 or 2 option.
    Klay doesn't have the handles to get his own shot, and his production from offense is b/c the main focus of the defense is on Steph Curry, Iguodala or David Lee is the 2nd option, and then Klay.

    And on bad nights when Klay's shot is off, he doesn't really bring that much more to the table than Derozan.

    Derozan is really athletic, gets to the line a lot, is showing glimpses of a post game, and when his 3 point shot gets a little better, he can easily be a number 1 option

  3. #43
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    What? The opposite happened - GSW refused to include Thompson in a trade for Love, which is why the two teams couldn't agree to terms.

    It's basically the biggest "pro" argument for Klay's defense here - a top 5 defensive team wouldn't trade him for a 26 & 12 PF because they figured they'd be worse off without Thompson's guard defense, which is essential for making a defenseless Steph Curry work as a cornerstone player.
    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    I haven't heard/read anything about that being GSW's reasoning. Any source available?
    I had bolded your assertion that GSW's reasoning was "because they figured they'd be worse off without Thompson's guard defense", as I hadn't heard that as given for their reasoning, which I think is much more complex than that anyway. I can't be bothered to look through more than the 1st 2 articles you've provided, as neither of them comes close to stating such reasoning.

  4. #44
    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Sam Amick of USA Today wrote a lengthy piece on the Warriors not wanting to give up Thompson for defensive reasons which can be read here:

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...ates/12876193/

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    Raptors Republic Starter S.R.'s Avatar
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    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    I had bolded your assertion that GSW's reasoning was "because they figured they'd be worse off without Thompson's guard defense", as I hadn't heard that as given for their reasoning, which I think is much more complex than that anyway. I can't be bothered to look through more than the 1st 2 articles you've provided, as neither of them comes close to stating such reasoning.
    Hahaha - maybe you haven't heard about this because your refuse to read the pieces on it? You honestly just made me LOL.

    I should end this right here if you've got the M.O. of asking for things, ignoring the follow up, and sticking to your uninformed opinion out of pure laziness, but I'll give you one last freebie. This is from one of the articles you claim to have actually read:

    "In the context of the Warriors' backcourt, Thompson's work becomes all the more important. He's asked on a near-nightly basis to oppose the most dangerous guard, in many cases sliding over to defend the point so that Curry can be hidden on a lesser threat. As such, Thompson is often the first line of defense against the league's deepest position.

    This is the case for many reasons, not least of which is that Thompson is far better at defending point guards than Curry. He's generally quick enough to prevent drives and contest shots, all while being better equipped to handle the physical toll of navigating an endless string of ball screens. Curry, on the other hand, can sometimes surrender favorable angles and tends to wear down with contact more quickly. To have Curry keep within his position on defense, then, puts at risk all that he offers on offense by extension. Thompson is, in a sense, the strategic fulcrum that helps keep the Warriors on balance.

    That value is obvious."

    http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/23/war...vin-love-trade

    If you're looking for a statement from ownership saying "We are not trading Klay Thompson because we value his defensive contributions over Kevin Love's offense" you won't get it - front offices don't make statements like that, ever. If you read any of these pieces and use your noggin, you will get it.

    Whatever. Basketball nursery school is ovah. It's ovah. Let's go home.

  7. #46
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    Quote S.R. wrote: View Post
    Hahaha - maybe you haven't heard about this because your refuse to read the pieces on it? You honestly just made me LOL.

    I should end this right here if you've got the M.O. of asking for things, ignoring the follow up, and sticking to your uninformed opinion out of pure laziness, but I'll give you one last freebie. This is from one of the articles you claim to have actually read:

    "In the context of the Warriors' backcourt, Thompson's work becomes all the more important. He's asked on a near-nightly basis to oppose the most dangerous guard, in many cases sliding over to defend the point so that Curry can be hidden on a lesser threat. As such, Thompson is often the first line of defense against the league's deepest position.

    This is the case for many reasons, not least of which is that Thompson is far better at defending point guards than Curry. He's generally quick enough to prevent drives and contest shots, all while being better equipped to handle the physical toll of navigating an endless string of ball screens. Curry, on the other hand, can sometimes surrender favorable angles and tends to wear down with contact more quickly. To have Curry keep within his position on defense, then, puts at risk all that he offers on offense by extension. Thompson is, in a sense, the strategic fulcrum that helps keep the Warriors on balance.

    That value is obvious."

    http://www.si.com/nba/2014/07/23/war...vin-love-trade

    If you're looking for a statement from ownership saying "We are not trading Klay Thompson because we value his defensive contributions over Kevin Love's offense" you won't get it - front offices don't make statements like that, ever. If you read any of these pieces and use your noggin, you will get it.

    Whatever. Basketball nursery school is ovah. It's ovah. Let's go home.
    No point to discussing with a strawman who just graduated nursery school and thinks he's a big boy now. Carry on. Have a nice day.

  8. #47
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    Actually, you were the one comparing Klay's defense with DeMar's defense, based on no evidence beyond who he guarded, with no reference to actual basketball results to illustrate his abilities, so I was looking for something relevant to "sink in", and thought you may have it. I asked. You gave nothing but smart-ass. That sunk in quickly!

    I also pointed out that the generalized "DD always guards the weakest link" in your "let that sink in" statement, isn't quite true, as DeMar guarded the opposition's strongest link, in the same first round, while also carrying the load of being his team's strongest offensive link in the series, unlike Klay's catch and shoot responsibilities. How many guys in the league can cover the opposition's top dog very well, while also being the top dog on their own team? Which brings up the fact that "questionable AS SG on the down slope of his career" JJ also caused LeBron and Miami problems as well, as he performed as well as he did vs the Raps.

    Just saying. Your argument I responded to is lacking in both accuracy and substance. to be worth letting sink in.
    What evidence does one need except that an NBA coaching staff feels confident in playing Thompson on the All-NBA 1st team PG in Chris Paul in the playoffs?

    You think they are devising defensive schemes to stop Matt Barnes so they put Thompson on Chris Paul? C'mon.


    As for Toronto's top dog, that is Lowry.

    As for DeRozan's results guarding JJ, I recall a brutal thrashing at DD's expense.

    As for LeBron, I thought we were talking Thompson and DeRozan?



    SUmmary:

    DeRozan versus Thompson on O depends on your roster.
    DeRozan versus Thompson on D is Thompson.

    However, I'm done placing limitations on DeRozan. I would say the odds favour him continuing to improve on defense as he has shown flashes.
    "You donít know the Bruno Caboclo......"
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    except at the draft, which is all homework, politics and chance.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    No point to discussing with a strawman who just graduated nursery school and thinks he's a big boy now. Carry on. Have a nice day.
    I dunno man. You asked him to back up his statement, he pretty clearly did so, and then you ignored it all to start and then said that there's "no point discussing it" after that.

    There's lots of content out there that says the Warriors wouldn't budge on Thompson and his defensive abilities had a huge part to do with that.

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  11. #49
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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    What evidence does one need except that an NBA coaching staff feels confident in playing Thompson on the All-NBA 1st team PG in Chris Paul in the playoffs?

    You think they are devising defensive schemes to stop Matt Barnes so they put Thompson on Chris Paul? C'mon.


    As for Toronto's top dog, that is Lowry.

    As for DeRozan's results guarding JJ, I recall a brutal thrashing at DD's expense.

    As for LeBron, I thought we were talking Thompson and DeRozan?



    SUmmary:

    DeRozan versus Thompson on O depends on your roster.
    DeRozan versus Thompson on D is Thompson.

    However, I'm done placing limitations on DeRozan. I would say the odds favour him continuing to improve on defense as he has shown flashes.
    I'd take DeRozan too. Thompson gets a lot more national attention playing next to Curry and is a really good complimentary piece as a 2-way guard, but DeMar's already a more skilled player (in spite of his flaws) and, like you said, has yet to stop improving.

    Ideally it's Ross who's going to play a Thompson-like role for the Raps. He definitely has the physical tools to do it, we'll see how far he progresses.

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    What evidence does one need except that an NBA coaching staff feels confident in playing Thompson on the All-NBA 1st team PG in Chris Paul in the playoffs?

    You think they are devising defensive schemes to stop Matt Barnes so they put Thompson on Chris Paul? C'mon.


    As for Toronto's top dog, that is Lowry.

    As for DeRozan's results guarding JJ, I recall a brutal thrashing at DD's expense.

    As for LeBron, I thought we were talking Thompson and DeRozan?



    SUmmary:

    DeRozan versus Thompson on O depends on your roster.
    DeRozan versus Thompson on D is Thompson.

    However, I'm done placing limitations on DeRozan. I would say the odds favour him continuing to improve on defense as he has shown flashes.
    "What evidence does one need except that an NBA coaching staff feels confident in playing Thompson on the All-NBA 1st team PG in Chris Paul in the playoffs?"

    I was looking for actual results info. Something more than anecdotal evidence, which one could easily argue is due more to the alternative of putting Curry on CP. I do know the following facts of Chris Paul/Klay Thompson in that series:
    - despite being guarded by the great defender, 7" taller than him, CP took more shots than season avg., at same FG%, took way more 3P attempts than season avg., with a much higher %
    - while Klay shot worse, including 3p%, than season averages, while being guarded by 3" shorter Reddick.

    Klay doesn't seemed to have contained Chris Paul at all, despite being a better option than Curry.

    "As for Toronto's top dog, that is Lowry."

    The subject you brought up was performances in the playoffs. Looking at basic numbers for scoring responsibility, which was the subject of "top dog", it's not hard to argue that they were 1A & 1B, as defenses forced them to take turns, with Lowry having 4 20+ games, to DeMar's 5 20+ games, while taking more shots overall, and many more FTs. Whatever the seamntics of "top dog" one goes with, those numbers are close enough to make the point of the energy needed address his responsibilities on offense, vs Klay's catch-and-shoot (to the tune of 75% assisted FGs) responsibilities on offense

    "As for DeRozan's results guarding JJ, I recall a brutal thrashing at DD's expense."

    And my question was did Klay fair any better with his defense, while carrying much less responsibility on offense. The numbers say CP scored more, much more efficiently, than season average, so if DeMar was thrashed, one could say the same about Klay's defense having little effect against CP, as in even less than average.

    "As for LeBron, I thought we were talking Thompson and DeRozan?"

    Yes we were/are. Sorry you missed the point of bringing up LeBron and Miami as evidence that JJ represented something more that a simplified "questionable AS SG on the down slope of his career" in the playoffs. Evidense shows Klay had little effect (less than avg) on CP's productivity, but JJ even gave LeBron fits. I repeat, it was to counter your dismissing of JJ as a force.
    .

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    Before I get into this I must state that I really like Klay Thompson as a basketball player. He's a REALLY good shooter. I actually watched a lot of Golden State games over the last few years because i'm a Steph Curry fan since he was in College.

    It's also no secret that i'm a pretty big fan of Demar (I've been called a Demar fanboy a few times over the last few years by some posters).

    Having said all that......I think Demar is a much better player at this point in their careers. Demar is about 6 months older than Klay and has already shown that he can lead a team and was an all-star last year. The only clear advantage Klay has over Demar is shooting 3's. The defense debate is exactly that....debatable (look at their DRTG ratings). I think Demar will continue to improve in all areas so i'm expecting to see a better defender this year.

    If you check out their advanced stats from last year - Demar had better numbers in almost every category (PER, PPG, Assists, Rebounding, Free throw attempts, Free throw makes, Free throw percentage, Steals, WS, ORTG.) There are no signs that he's slowing down either. He's starting to make a believer out of his toughest critics on RR.

    Obviously it comes down to someone's personal preference. Some people are obsessed with "3 and D." Some people just don't like Demar's game for whatever reason so they would pick Klay or call it a toss up.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    "What evidence does one need except that an NBA coaching staff feels confident in playing Thompson on the All-NBA 1st team PG in Chris Paul in the playoffs?"

    I was looking for actual results info. Something more than anecdotal evidence, which one could easily argue is due more to the alternative of putting Curry on CP. I do know the following facts of Chris Paul/Klay Thompson in that series:
    - despite being guarded by the great defender, 7" taller than him, CP took more shots than season avg., at same FG%, took way more 3P attempts than season avg., with a much higher %
    - while Klay shot worse, including 3p%, than season averages, while being guarded by 3" shorter Reddick.

    Klay doesn't seemed to have contained Chris Paul at all, despite being a better option than Curry.

    "As for Toronto's top dog, that is Lowry."

    The subject you brought up was performances in the playoffs. Looking at basic numbers for scoring responsibility, which was the subject of "top dog", it's not hard to argue that they were 1A & 1B, as defenses forced them to take turns, with Lowry having 4 20+ games, to DeMar's 5 20+ games, while taking more shots overall, and many more FTs. Whatever the seamntics of "top dog" one goes with, those numbers are close enough to make the point of the energy needed address his responsibilities on offense, vs Klay's catch-and-shoot (to the tune of 75% assisted FGs) responsibilities on offense

    "As for DeRozan's results guarding JJ, I recall a brutal thrashing at DD's expense."

    And my question was did Klay fair any better with his defense, while carrying much less responsibility on offense. The numbers say CP scored more, much more efficiently, than season average, so if DeMar was thrashed, one could say the same about Klay's defense having little effect against CP, as in even less than average.

    "As for LeBron, I thought we were talking Thompson and DeRozan?"

    Yes we were/are. Sorry you missed the point of bringing up LeBron and Miami as evidence that JJ represented something more that a simplified "questionable AS SG on the down slope of his career" in the playoffs. Evidense shows Klay had little effect (less than avg) on CP's productivity, but JJ even gave LeBron fits. I repeat, it was to counter your dismissing of JJ as a force.
    .
    You are so clearly correct on all matters here.

    I respectfully bow out of discussion because I have come to realize I have no clue what I am talking about and you're opinions are clearly much superior to my own.

    Good day, p00ka.

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    Quote mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
    You are so clearly correct on all matters here.

    I respectfully bow out of discussion because I have come to realize I have no clue what I am talking about and you're opinions are clearly much superior to my own.

    Good day, p00ka.
    Are you serious? Sorry, I thought I was discussing the topic with a grown up that could handle challenges.

    lol, whoever this pOOka dude was, I've got some appreciation for him if this is the kind of exchanges you had with him/her

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    Quote chico wrote: View Post
    Are you serious? Sorry, I thought I was discussing the topic with a grown up that could handle challenges.

    lol, whoever this pOOka dude was, I've got some appreciation for him if this is the kind of exchanges you had with him/her

    LMAO good one
    I DONT TRUST PEOPLE WHO WEAR SUNGLASSES AT NIGHT

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    Quote chico wrote: View Post

    lol, whoever this pOOka dude was, I've got some appreciation for him if this is the kind of exchanges you had with him/her
    Please don't, he was a pretty large ass hat and offered almost nothing of substance to any conversation besides childish name calling and long winded diatribes.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Aug 13th, 2014 at 07:32 AM.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    p00ka was a clown. Multipaul is the gold standard. Just like Kayne is a self-proclaimed genius, but also an actual genius, multipaul was the greatest troll because deep down inside he actually believed his own stuff, or made me believe that he believed it, either way, I hope he's still posting on Knick boards. LONG LIVE KING BARGS!!!
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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