15 months ago

[MACK11]

Colangelo gave Kapono 4 years. That's the great part.

And then Kapono who was signed to shoot 3's starts doing everything other then shooting3's ...........

[yabadabayolo]

And Masai hasn't financially handcuffed the team.
And Masai isn't relying on a core that doesn't have room to grow.
And Masai has assembled a deep bench.
And Masai isn't trying to bring Europe to the NBA via Canada as a means of compensating.
And Masai isn't trying to assemble a team of jump shooters - long, athletic, and active is the game plan.


I was a big fan of BC for a long time and I am a big fan of Masai now. However the start of their tenures - outside of initial success - couldn't be more different from one another, in my opinion.

Though im with you on being a fan of Masai. I think I gotta play devils advocate here

2 years from now, its possible to say the lowry and patterson contracts were overpays

You could have argued a core that a inside presence of bosh coupled with a outside presence of bargnani had plenty of room to grow. What one player lacked, the other made up for it. (On paper of course. Bargnani is shit in real life)

Tru, bench used to be shit

You could say Masai isnt bringing europe to canada but instead brazil to canada

And hindsight is 20/20 aint it

I think the two tenures are quite similar tbh

[raptors999]

Though im with you on being a fan of Masai. I think I gotta play devils advocate here

2 years from now, its possible to say the lowry and patterson contracts were overpays

You could have argued a core that a inside presence of bosh coupled with a outside presence of bargnani had plenty of room to grow. What one player lacked, the other made up for it. (On paper of course. Bargnani is shit in real life)

Tru, bench used to be shit

You could say Masai isnt bringing europe to canada but instead brazil to canada

And hindsight is 20/20 aint it

I think the two tenures are quite similar tbh

In 2 years the new TV deal kicks in. Both Lowry and 2Pats could be really cheap deals.

[chico]

In 2 years the new TV deal kicks in. Both Lowry and 2Pats could be really cheap deals.

ha, I'll be the devil advocate's aide.

So, we already know Amir's and DeMar's contracts are good deals, and a shitload better than most predicted.

[DanH]

ha, I'll be the devil advocate's aide.

So, we already know Amir's and DeMar's contracts are good deals, and a shitload better than most predicted.

And neither were in place in Colangelo's first couple seasons.

[mcHAPPY]

Though im with you on being a fan of Masai. I think I gotta play devils advocate here

2 years from now, its possible to say the lowry and patterson contracts were overpays

You could have argued a core that a inside presence of bosh coupled with a outside presence of bargnani had plenty of room to grow. What one player lacked, the other made up for it. (On paper of course. Bargnani is shit in real life)

Tru, bench used to be shit

You could say Masai isnt bringing europe to canada but instead brazil to canada

And hindsight is 20/20 aint it

I think the two tenures are quite similar tbh

Overpays and financially handcuffed aren't the same thing.

You could argue about the killer Bs but both were PF. I'm talking about Ross and JV - different positions with more traditional and valuable skill sets. Plus the youth with potential buried on the bench.

Calling the bench under colangelos tenure shit is an insult to shit.

Bringing Brazil to Canada? Because he traded for top defensive player in ACB and drafted a relatively unknown and skilled genetic marvel who happen to be from Brazil? I'm not talking where players are from as much as style of play.

Like most things with Masai it will take more time to be able to look back and see how things play out. I'll be shocked if it ends up like Colangelo.

[Heatdreamer]

Bruno and Bebe value or potential will be determined by 3rd year in the NBA, at a relative inexpensive cost of 2.5 million . Additionally, if we keep all draft 1st picks through end of 2016. We will have 5 youngsters at a total of less than 10 million and if you include Deandre Daniels -6 players at $ 10 million
If we keep the roster intact -Lowry, DD, Jonas , Ppat and Terrence Ross will total approx 50 million. 11 players totaling 60 million.
The cap in 2016/17 will be projected 79 million after the Tv deal is completed. The raptors have a lot of room to play with extending GV - if his game continues to improve or JJ and still have cap space of 10 million dollars plus the MLE.
Only room for two talented contributors a starting PF and a backup center.

[chico]

And neither were in place in Colangelo's first couple seasons.

Yeah, well comparing each GM's first couple of seasons, either in a "fool me once...." sense, or a B hasn't done what A did, is senseless to begin with. They came into vastly different circumstances, with vastly different personnel to work with.

[mcHAPPY]

Yeah, well comparing each GM's first couple of seasons, either in a "fool me once...." sense, or a B hasn't done what A did, is senseless to begin with. They came into vastly different circumstances, with vastly different personnel to work with.

The different situations is a good point.

Both came into bad teams in terms of W and Ls.

However colangelo had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him and a #1 pick to work with while masai had a lot of work to do. The bargnani and gay trades were absolutely incredible. If those deals aren't the best he pulls off the raps are in very good position moving forward.

[chico]

The different situations is a good point.

Both came into bad teams in terms of W and Ls.

However colangelo had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him and a #1 pick to work with while masai had a lot of work to do. The bargnani and gay trades were absolutely incredible. If those deals aren't the best he pulls off the raps are in very good position moving forward.

Dude, I'm nowhere near trying to dismiss BC's mistakes, nor discredit MU's marvelous moves, but from ownership, through coaching staff, down to players, these two inherited incredibly different situations, and I'll maintain that comparing specific details of what each did/didn't do is senseless. Different tools to work with and different mandates.

That said, BC "had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him"? Huh? The team he inherited was a joke beyond Bosh and a declining Mo-Pete, where as MU's entire young starting unit, going into the 2nd year, is all BC's doing from good draft picks and trades. Even I'd take a team with recently drafted JV and T Ross over Araujo and Joey Graham any day and do better work with the former, to say nothing of hugely preferring Lowry and Amir over Mike James and Charlie V.

[white men can't jump]

Dude, I'm nowhere near trying to dismiss BC's mistakes, nor discredit MU's marvelous moves, but from ownership, through coaching staff, down to players, these two inherited incredibly different situations, and I'll maintain that comparing specific details of what each did/didn't do is senseless. Different tools to work with and different mandates.

That said, BC "had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him"? Huh? The team he inherited was a joke beyond Bosh and a declining Mo-Pete, where as MU's entire young starting unit, going into the 2nd year, is all BC's doing from good draft picks and trades. Even I'd take a team with recently drafted JV and T Ross over Araujo and Joey Graham any day and do better work with the former, to say nothing of hugely preferring Lowry and Amir over Mike James and Charlie V.

Well, he inherited a team that had no real mess. You have to think from a GM's perspective. Yeah, the goal is to win, but the tasks are about building a team you can move forward with.

BC started with:
-an established young all-star talent
-a #1 overall pick (and the easiest way to add an all-star/franchise talent)
-a "clean" cap situation with no big contracts, and space under the cap

Ujiri had
-no obvious all-star piece
-a clusterfuck of a cap situation with big contracts that many thought were immovable, and no cap space
-no draft pick his first year

Now Ujiri may have had a better roster, so to speak, but had a much messier situation in terms of choosing a path. Trickier for him to choose which pieces (none of which were proven) to keep, wihch to shed, and how to make the team more successful as he'd have to get very creative given the lack of simple tools (picks, money) with which to do so.

[mcHAPPY]

Dude, I'm nowhere near trying to dismiss BC's mistakes, nor discredit MU's marvelous moves, but from ownership, through coaching staff, down to players, these two inherited incredibly different situations, and I'll maintain that comparing specific details of what each did/didn't do is senseless. Different tools to work with and different mandates.

That said, BC "had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him"? Huh? The team he inherited was a joke beyond Bosh and a declining Mo-Pete, where as MU's entire young starting unit, going into the 2nd year, is all BC's doing from good draft picks and trades. Even I'd take a team with recently drafted JV and T Ross over Araujo and Joey Graham any day and do better work with the former, to say nothing of hugely preferring Lowry and Amir over Mike James and Charlie V.

Dude, why so angry, huh?

If you're not here to discredit and you're not here to dismiss I assume you are here to converse, no? So lets converse.

I really don't give a rats bottom about comparing the two. I just don't feel the future prospects of the current Raptors team reflect those of the 2007 edition. Too much salary cap room coming up and too many young players with upside still not tapped.

BC absolutely deserves credit for, essentially, the starting lineup. He traded for Lowry, drafted DD, drafted TR, traded for Amir, and drafted JV. However, it took him 4 full seasons of not making the playoffs to do it. Even with that talent amassed they were still a mishmash due to too much money tied up in Rudy Gay relative to what he actually provided and his mix with the others.

My reference to "had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him" takes in to consideration:
- Jalen Rose's 2006-07 $14M salary was traded away in February
- Alston's 3 years remaining contract was traded in October 2006 for the expiring James

Those moves allowed him to bring in Parker, Fred Jones, and Garbo.

He of course made a couple of good trades immediately getting Rasho, Humphries, and Ford and had the "luck" to get #1 in an awful draft class.

[mcHAPPY]

Well, he inherited a team that had no real mess. You have to think from a GM's perspective. Yeah, the goal is to win, but the tasks are about building a team you can move forward with.

BC started with:
-an established young all-star talent
-a #1 overall pick (and the easiest way to add an all-star/franchise talent)
-a "clean" cap situation with no big contracts, and space under the cap

Ujiri had
-no obvious all-star piece
-a clusterfuck of a cap situation with big contracts that many thought were immovable, and no cap space
-no draft pick his first year

Now Ujiri may have had a better roster, so to speak, but had a much messier situation in terms of choosing a path. Trickier for him to choose which pieces (none of which were proven) to keep, wihch to shed, and how to make the team more successful as he'd have to get very creative given the lack of simple tools (picks, money) with which to do so.

And how all that came about:

“We try to study [but] we’re not geniuses,” Ujiri admitted. “You have to get lucky sometimes and I think we were lucky. It kind of came together in terms of chemistry.”

http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=444021

That is another difference between BC and MU. BC would be puffing his chest saying it was his plan all along and number other GMs called to congratulate him. Masai is humble in a way that still manages to exude confidence.

[white men can't jump]

And how all that came about:



That is another difference between BC and MU. BC would be puffing his chest saying it was his plan all along and number other GMs called to congratulate him. Masai is humble in a way that still manages to exude confidence.

And it's not just that he's humble, but like you'd hope any smart exec would admit, luck is always a factor. And part of that is being patient or careful enough to avoid making a move sometimes, or go for the smaller move instead of the bigger move...like signing Tyler Hansbrough to a partially guaranteed deal for less than the MLE when the team badly needs insurance and toughness in the frontcourt, rather than, say, signing Jason Kapono to a fully guaranteed full MLE deal for 4 years when the team only slightly needs better outside shooting.

[chico]

Dude, why so angry, huh?

If you're not here to discredit and you're not here to dismiss I assume you are here to converse, no? So lets converse.

I really don't give a rats bottom about comparing the two. I just don't feel the future prospects of the current Raptors team reflect those of the 2007 edition. Too much salary cap room coming up and too many young players with upside still not tapped.

BC absolutely deserves credit for, essentially, the starting lineup. He traded for Lowry, drafted DD, drafted TR, traded for Amir, and drafted JV. However, it took him 4 full seasons of not making the playoffs to do it. Even with that talent amassed they were still a mishmash due to too much money tied up in Rudy Gay relative to what he actually provided and his mix with the others.

My reference to "had a lot of stuff already cleaned up for him" takes in to consideration:
- Jalen Rose's 2006-07 $14M salary was traded away in February
- Alston's 3 years remaining contract was traded in October 2006 for the expiring James

Those moves allowed him to bring in Parker, Fred Jones, and Garbo.

He of course made a couple of good trades immediately getting Rasho, Humphries, and Ford and had the "luck" to get #1 in an awful draft class.

Angry? WTF you talking about? In what way did I express anger? There was no intent, and I see no evidence.

As far as your high horse dismiss/discredit comment, my reference had nothing to do with interaction between posters and conversing, but was in reference to performances of BC and MU.

2nd bold: agreed