Lowry,Wall,Rose or Irving POLL

[007]

The homer in me wants Lowry, but I have to go with Wall.

Although, a lineup of Wall/DD/Ross/Amir/JV might have the worst 3PT% in the league.

[NoPropsneeded]

If Rose was healthy there would be no question about it. He's not only the best PG but probably a top 3 player in the entire league when's he's at his peak.

[Bendit]

As with many poll questions, this one is ambiguous as well....is it just the best pg amongst...period? or....

I'll stick with Lowry for the Raptors team today.... mentally and good all-around talent. I believe he is the best fit. If I were starting a team I'd go for Wall. He has just too much upside. Both Rose & Irving seem to have the injury bug while Lowry is going on 30 soon.

[Pong]

It's too soon to close the book on Rose. The guy hasn't played in 2 years yet he made the USA team over Wall and Lillard. Not sure why, but Coach K must have seen something we didn't. Rose clearly doesn't lack confidence and all accounts point to him being in great shape. It's just a matter of him getting back into his grove. FIBA was probably the best thing he could ask for because he got to warm up and see how well his body holds up. Now he's in great shape going into training camp and preseason.

I think it's tough to just pick who's the best. It'd be better to break them down by categories. Assumption here is Rose is mostly healthy, not MVP healthy, but at least 80% there. Here's my take:

Offense:
1. Irving: He's a threat from anywhere on the court. Some of the best handles in the league.
2. Rose
3. Wall
4. Lowry: Not a knock on Lowry, he's a great 3 pt shooter, but he lacks a mid range game. He's also not as athletic or tall as the other guys so he's not as good at finishing at the rim

Defense:
1. Lowry: League leader in charges (i think). Now that he's stopped gambling on the passing lanes and began focusing on hounding opponent PGs he's tops in defence. Though undersized, he's the best rebounder of the 4 as well. Great at swiping the ball from unaware rebounders.
2. Wall
3. Rose
4. Irving: You can chalk this up to effort and coaching. Playing in FIBA and this new Cavs team could help propel him in this area.

Leadership:
1. Lowry: Leads by example. Raps would have gotten no where close to where they did without him.
2. Wall: Impact on the Wiz is pretty obvious
3. Rose: He's been away from his team for 2 years. Not sure how it'll play out this season. Not much signs of Pau being a great leader, but him and noah will definitely pick up the slack while Rose gets readjusted.
4: Irving: He himself says he's not a good leader. End of story

Pure PG ability, floor general-ness, etc
1. Wall: Best passer and vision hands down
2. Lowry
3. Rose: Not to say he isn't a good floor general, but he's primarily a scorer
4. Irving: Not to say he isn't a good floor general, but he's primarily a scorer

Ball IQ (highly subjective):
1. Lowry: Considering he's the least athletic of the group and the smallest, it takes smarts to play at the level he does.
2. irving: Very crafty. It's like the game runs in slow motion for him.
3. Wall/Rose: They're smart players, but both rely a lot on physical ability.

Athletic ability:
1. Wall
2. Rose
3. Irving
4. Lowry

Potential:
1. Irving: People can argue that shooting/scoring ability can be developed while defence is something that is ingrained, but i call that bs. Defence has much to do with motivation/effort and coaching. Irving had a rough start to his career due to injuries and the bad environment Cavs had before. He's a smart player and has good footwork. I'm sure we'll see a significant improvement on D this year. Shooting-wise he's already one of the best PGs in the league. No PG can come close to his ball handling. He's been honing it since he was a kid.
2. Wall: Improved 3pt shooting. Now's a matter of improving his shot selection and consistency.
3. Rose: Still relatively young, and assuming he's 80% where he was he just needs to dust off the rust. Already showed in FIBA that he's a + in defence.
4: Lowry: We pretty much know what he can bring. He has shown a lot of improvement in his game, but due to his relative age and athleticism, his potential is lower than the other guy.

[white men can't jump]

For everyone crapping on Irving for "not getting it" or whatever, you need to remember that he's only 22, and has played in a pretty miserable situation for the last three years. Don't forget that Lowry himself had the malcontent/immature baggage attached to him up until basically last year, and he was 27 before he seemingly figured it out. And for all the backlash he receives, he's already a 2x all-star, an all-star MVP, and is coming off a gold medal and an MVP award at the FIBA world cup. You can't say he hasn't produced individually. Irving has a great opportunity to shed any of the negative labels he may have picked up this year, and I'm expecting him to shine on a team that will flirt with 60 wins.

The thing is, Irving hasn't shown any positive signs on the mental side. He gets voted into the all-star games because he was a high profile #1 pick who's fun to watch. He excels in "pick-up game" atmospheres, which is what the all-star game is, and even this past FIBA resembled because it was a weaker international crop this year.

My theory is that a lot of negative labels will disappear playing with LeBron, but his game won't actually change much. He'll get his praise, possibly rings and individual trophies...With LeBron around he won't have to be the PG as much, and he'll look less like the prima donna ballhog he has been. But I wouldn't be surprised if his game stays the same, and after LeBron is done, he looks just as bad again (this is just personal opinion and I expect many will disagree).

Also, what hasn't been brought up enough is that Irving is very obviously injury prone. So far it's mostly more mild injuries, but definitely a concern.

He's that guy who, apart from his talent level, I don't like a single thing about him as a basketball player.

[S.R.]

I don't know why everyone's waiting for the Derrick Rose comeback after 2 years and multiple surgeries. MVP players don't sit out for two years due to injury and return to play at an elite level. Ever.

His optimal outcome at this point would be a Grant Hill type of career arc. Evolve your game, do your best to maintain the health you have, and become a productive role player and locker room leader.

If I'm picking these guys for the next 5 seasons, it would be Wall > Irving > Lowry > Rose. Actually, I might pick that way for this next season. Lowry had a great year last year, but Wall finished well and Irving had a good year too. Those guys are young and they should be taking steps forward this season.

[Letter N]

It's the Adrian Peterson factor (the coming back from injury one, not the beating your kid with a switch one), after people saw how amazing he was following ACL surgery people no longer see it as that debilitating an injury.

[Fully]

The thing is, Irving hasn't shown any positive signs on the mental side. He gets voted into the all-star games because he was a high profile #1 pick who's fun to watch. He excels in "pick-up game" atmospheres, which is what the all-star game is, and even this past FIBA resembled because it was a weaker international crop this year.

My theory is that a lot of negative labels will disappear playing with LeBron, but his game won't actually change much. He'll get his praise, possibly rings and individual trophies...With LeBron around he won't have to be the PG as much, and he'll look less like the prima donna ballhog he has been. But I wouldn't be surprised if his game stays the same, and after LeBron is done, he looks just as bad again (this is just personal opinion and I expect many will disagree).

Also, what hasn't been brought up enough is that Irving is very obviously injury prone. So far it's mostly more mild injuries, but definitely a concern.

He's that guy who, apart from his talent level, I don't like a single thing about him as a basketball player.

If you're motivated to qualify any accomplishment of his with a reason or two on why it's not that impressive then sure, he's not going to look great.

He was voted to the 2014 all-star game by the fans, but was selected by the league's coaches the year previously as a 20 year old second year player. And it's not like he suffered a big drop off this past season and had to rely on the fan vote to get him in the game - it's like you're holding it against him that he's popular. It's not an indictment to be voted an all star and then light up the subsequent game.

And I gotta disagree with your assessment of the FIBA world cup as some type of glorified pick-up game. Some of the best coaches in the world picked him for the team directly over guys like Wall and Lillard (and indirectly over guys like Lowry, Rondo and others who didn't receive camp invites), made him the starting point guard and a focal point, and in turn he was the team's best player and the tournament MVP. If you don't see that as a "positive sign on the mental side" for a guy who just turned 22 then I don't know to say other than I think you're being swayed by your dislike for him.

Is he perfect? No. He still has some maturing left to do and has certainly played a part in the Cavs lack of success recently. But I also think it's unreasonable to expect a player as young as him to a) have the mental side of the game completely figured out so early in his career and b) overcome a dysfunctional franchise surrounding him in almost all facets. This upcoming season he'll be surrounded with a fantastic supporting cast and likely a much better head coach… let's see what he does in that situation. I'm predicting that he'll be great, but it sounds like even if he is you'll be giving all the credit to Lebron/Love anyway.

[Fully]

And while the injury concern may be valid, in a conversation about these four players specifically, it doesn't mean much.

Lowry missed 77 games in his first three seasons.
Wall missed 46 games in his first three seasons.
Kyrie missed 49 games in his first three seasons.

And the other one is Derrick Rose.

[white men can't jump]

If you're motivated to qualify any accomplishment of his with a reason or two on why it's not that impressive then sure, he's not going to look great.

He was voted to the 2014 all-star game by the fans, but was selected by the league's coaches the year previously as a 20 year old second year player. And it's not like he suffered a big drop off this past season and had to rely on the fan vote to get him in the game - it's like you're holding it against him that he's popular. It's not an indictment to be voted an all star and then light up the subsequent game.

And I gotta disagree with your assessment of the FIBA world cup as some type of glorified pick-up game. Some of the best coaches in the world picked him for the team directly over guys like Wall and Lillard (and indirectly over guys like Lowry, Rondo and others who didn't receive camp invites), made him the starting point guard and a focal point, and in turn he was the team's best player and the tournament MVP. If you don't see that as a "positive sign on the mental side" for a guy who just turned 22 then I don't know to say other than I think you're being swayed by your dislike for him.

Is he perfect? No. He still has some maturing left to do and has certainly played a part in the Cavs lack of success recently. But I also think it's unreasonable to expect a player as young as him to a) have the mental side of the game completely figured out so early in his career and b) overcome a dysfunctional franchise surrounding him in almost all facets. This upcoming season he'll be surrounded with a fantastic supporting cast and likely a much better head coach… let's see what he does in that situation. I'm predicting that he'll be great, but it sounds like even if he is you'll be giving all the credit to Lebron/Love anyway.

I really have to disagree with this. They had a giant margin for error because of how weak the competition was this year. The only team that had enough talent to force them to play a high-quality, high-discipline game was Spain, and they didn't end up having to play them at any time. They basically were playing a lot of "pick-up" ball in terms of level of intensity. It was just a shade more intense than an all-star game lets say. Not only all that, but he really wasn't even their best player throughout the tournament. That either goes to Davis, Harden (despite the total lack of D) or even Faried. Irving won MVP because the trophy is often given to the best player on the winning team in the Finals, and Irving led them in points (in a game that was mostly garbage time). Irving's game didn't look sharp, and there were moments in the tournament where his poor point play stalled the team's momentum.

Irving makes poor decisions, doesn't give much effort at all on the defensive side, has not exactly stood out as a leader in any way. Do I hold it against him that he's popular? A bit, because he has done absolutely nothing to warrant the abundant hype he's getting other than some flashy play.

I will be evaluating him on whether his mental game improves, whether at any point he actually starts to look like a PG/leader, or the franchise player he was supposed to be coming out. So far, to me, he just looks like a soft, lazy version of Allen Iverson without anything close to resembling the competitiveness the latter had. There was probably more mental toughness in one of AI's piles of crap than Kyrie has so far displayed.

And yeah, I think you could put that pillsbury version of AI beside LeBron and Love, and he'll get tons of accolades and put up great numbers....doesn't necessarily mean he'll transform into the real AI. So I'll believe Kyrie is a better player when I see it.

So yeah, I'm not a fan, and my opinion can't really be unbiased, but it's also not completely unwarranted.

I mean seriously, I don't think I've ever watched him and been like "man, that's how I want my star PG to play".

*I'm not saying he will never "get it", but so far I haven't seen the slightest sign from him of that, and for instance have seen more from pretty much every talented PG in the league.

[white men can't jump]

And while the injury concern may be valid, in a conversation about these four players specifically, it doesn't mean much.

Lowry missed 77 games in his first three seasons.
Wall missed 46 games in his first three seasons.
Kyrie missed 49 games in his first three seasons.

And the other one is Derrick Rose.

True enough. Though that doesn't mean one should be more optimistic about any specific player, more that it's just a wildcard, as injuries usually are. And they're a bit different for each guy.

Irving's are worrisome because they're so random and smack of "fragility". Like his body just can't handle physical play. Nothing particularly major, but not encouraging. It's not like he plays physically and looks for contact. And I'm not trying to add this onto the reasons I dislike him. This is just random and unfortunate, but again, just not encouraging.

Wall's smack of his body not being able to keep up with his athleticism. Knee/foot strains and sprains. Not a good sign for the long-term, but last year he was healthy all year, so we'll see if part of it had to do with his body fully maturing maybe (??).

Rose....nuff said.

Lowry probably plays the most physical out of all of them, and has a long track record of injuries, most of which are wear and tear style. Many are fairly mild, and the instances he's missed more games have been things you don't really worry about long-term (wrist injury, random infection). Oddly enough may be a pretty safe bet compared to the others, at least lets say over the next 4 years he's signed. I mean, he's really never had one of those majorly worrying leg injuries...and now that he's a bit slimmer than he was for most of his career, his nagging injury risk and ability to play through them has probably improved.

[Pong]

We're talking about a guy who came into the league having played only 10 games in college. A guy who had unrealistic expectations to meet after LBJ left town and was basically the go to guy for everything on a losing CAVs team. And while he wasn't able to help lead his team to victories, you have to admit he held his own- all the while having to face the pressure of being the 'next LBJ'.

[enlightenment]

Lowry has the best shot out of this crowd. Fits best with Derozan. Rose for instance would be terrible next to Derozan.. Lowry also has the smartest defence (league leader, by far, in charges), and he is also the most mature out of this crowd. Irving doesn't get it, has potential, but is a net negative on a team in my opinion. Rose can't shoot outside the key, and has a lot to prove this season. Wall is the most well rounded below Lowry, but is not mature enough, yet.

At this moment in time, I go with Lowry.

[YoungGunRaptor]

When healthy: Derrick Rose. Has all the intangibles a point guard needs, and most importantly, would provide the Raptors with guaranteed clutch scoring and leadership.

Defensively, Rose is an absolute stud when locked in, and he does have court vision (was averaging around 21 PPG, 8 APG before he tore his ACL). He is well rounded offensively and plays hard on both ends of the floor.

Irving is probably the best offensive PG of the 4. Defensively, he doesn't really compare to the likes of Wall, Rose, or Lowry.



That being said, Lowry is the best fit for Derozan and the Raptors. He is a physical defender, leads by example, and has provided clutch scoring consistently. His 3 point shooting is excellent (~40%), a big plus given Demar's accuracy from deep (33% last season).

[rightsideup]

does anyone here believe Irving was part of the chemistry problems Cleveland had last season?