Can DeMar surpass Harden?

[draps]

Ummm so is derozan. If he didnt get to the line at an elite level, his inefficient shooting would still be highlighted as a huge glaring issue. Luckily DDs numbers get padded by his FT attempts and makes.

There's a difference to how they use that part of the game though. Harden is usually trying to bait the fouls, which causes bad shots when he doesn't get the call, demar just attacks the rim hard, and finishes better at it

And if demar was aloud to slack off on defence to get easy transition opportunities, while playing along side Dwight Howard, at a much faster pace, there's very little difference IMO.

[Mr.Z]

Harden might shoot three's better but if I had to choose one guy to be on my team it would be Demar. Just because Harden is a cocky/no defence/no-real-human-emotion showing douche bag.

[ddaylewis]

There's a difference to how they use that part of the game though. Harden is usually trying to bait the fouls, which causes bad shots when he doesn't get the call, demar just attacks the rim hard, and finishes better at it

And if demar was aloud to slack off on defence to get easy transition opportunities, while playing along side Dwight Howard, at a much faster pace, there's very little difference IMO.

Harden averaged 25.9 points per game on a TS% of 60.0 in his first year in Houston without Dwight. You're making it sound like Harden gets SUCH a big bump from playing alongside Dwight.

[white men can't jump]

Harden averaged 25.9 points per game on a TS% of 60.0 in his first year in Houston without Dwight. You're making it sound like Harden gets SUCH a big bump from playing alongside Dwight.

Again, I think the biggest difference though ends up being personality/leadership.

You know who Harden reminds me of since going to Houston? McGrady. Tracy was a top 10 player and immense talent. He did tons of different things and could "lead" his team to the playoffs just because of how good he was. But it never, not ever, felt like his teammates were playing for him, were rallying around him. Remember when he went down in Houston and the team had their best playoff run since the Hakeem days? Well it wasn't because they got better as a team, but because guys really came together and played like a team...playing for each other, sacrificing for each other. At this point, Harden just hasn't shown much, if any, promise there.

Maybe it's hard to judge because our team also has Lowry, but I feel like DeMar is quite a bit ahead there as a better teammate and leader.

*And obviously, this is huge with your key players. They have to set the tone with a team-first example, and if they don't it can be very hard to build a true contender. I mean, does anyone feel like Houston is really a contender? And how many "no" votes end up being because of the personalities of Harden and Howard?

[blackjitsu]

Dwight (Howard) and I are the cornerstones of the Rockets. The rest of the guys are role players ...

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/spor...by-5645839.php

In contrast

When Raptors general manager Masai Ujiri met with DeRozan after the World Cup, the first thing DeRozan wanted to talk about was his newfound respect for the challenges faced by bench players.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...m_medium=gplus

Am I crazy to recognize Harden as a better player, but want a player like Derozan in my locker room if I were a GM?

[iblastoff]

There's a difference to how they use that part of the game though. Harden is usually trying to bait the fouls, which causes bad shots when he doesn't get the call, demar just attacks the rim hard, and finishes better at it

And if demar was aloud to slack off on defence to get easy transition opportunities, while playing along side Dwight Howard, at a much faster pace, there's very little difference IMO.

this is bullshit.

compare shot charts of the last season:
demar:


harden:


not only is harden a slightly better finisher at the rim, he also got closer to the rim WAY more than demar did (449 vs 380).

demars shot chart looks absolutely horrible and is only higher than league average from a corner 3 area from where he only took 22 shots. he is WAY more dependent on getting to the line than harden is.

[ddaylewis]

Again, I think the biggest difference though ends up being personality/leadership.

You know who Harden reminds me of since going to Houston? McGrady. Tracy was a top 10 player and immense talent. He did tons of different things and could "lead" his team to the playoffs just because of how good he was. But it never, not ever, felt like his teammates were playing for him, were rallying around him. Remember when he went down in Houston and the team had their best playoff run since the Hakeem days? Well it wasn't because they got better as a team, but because guys really came together and played like a team...playing for each other, sacrificing for each other. At this point, Harden just hasn't shown much, if any, promise there.

Maybe it's hard to judge because our team also has Lowry, but I feel like DeMar is quite a bit ahead there as a better teammate and leader.

*And obviously, this is huge with your key players. They have to set the tone with a team-first example, and if they don't it can be very hard to build a true contender. I mean, does anyone feel like Houston is really a contender? And how many "no" votes end up being because of the personalities of Harden and Howard?

I'm leery to speculate on any players' personality, and how it affects his locker room's dynamic. No one knows that, not even the beat writers. We aren't privy to the thoughts in their minds.

That being said, I'd say the odds are good that Harden isn't terribly adored by his teammates.

However, there are exactly 4 scorers who have scored over 25 PPG with a TS% of 60 or better in the last two seasons. Those four are Harden, Curry, James and Durant. That's it. You can't ignore that amount of raw scoring at such an efficient rate. I think people are too readily overlooking this point.

But there is the personality issue to potentially factor in. That makes Harden less than perfect. But it's a whole lot easier to find a solid leader of men than it is to replace Harden's scoring output.

[S.R.]

Harden is a much better player than DD, but I wouldn't want a max contract Harden as my core guy. I don't think you'll ever win a championship with him. He's not just a notoriously awful defender - he also notoriously just doesn't give a sh*t on that end of the court.

It's one thing to have a core guy with a severe flaw - a core guy with a severe flaw and in need of an attitude adjustment is a bit too much.

[white men can't jump]

I'm leery to speculate on any players' personality, and how it affects his locker room's dynamic. No one knows that, not even the beat writers. We aren't privy to the thoughts in their minds.

That being said, I'd say the odds are good that Harden isn't terribly adored by his teammates.

However, there are exactly 4 scorers who have scored over 25 PPG with a TS% of 60 or better in the last two seasons. Those four are Harden, Curry, James and Durant. That's it. You can't ignore that amount of raw scoring at such an efficient rate. I think people are too readily overlooking this point.

But there is the personality issue to potentially factor in. That makes Harden less than perfect. But it's a whole lot easier to find a solid leader of men than it is to replace Harden's scoring output.

A few thoughts on this.

First, I don't think it's that hard to judge personalities as players. Personality comes through in terms of how they behave as a player pretty clearly on the floor. We are just judging them as basketball players, including in terms of leadership. How a guy plays, and how his teammates function around him give a pretty good feel for a guy's personality and leadership ability. Do guys play hard on O? On D? Do they try to play smart? Is there good communication when things break down (Harden's on court communication is something I've seen be pretty goddamn awful)?

Second, scoring is not the end all and be all of value. Bringing McGrady back up, he could put the ball in the hoop as well as anyone, and is still widely regarded as "failure" due to his inability to lead a team to deep playoff success.

To expand on that, scoring is also fairly easy to replace compared to leadership. I honestly don't even know how you can say that it's easier to find a solid leader of men than replace scoring. How many solid leaders are there in the league? How many of them are also good enough players to be team leaders? To be a real contender, your best player(s) have to be leaders. Doesn't mean you can't get leadership from other guys, but "stars" absolutely have to command respect and lead by example, if not also vocally.

Going back to Houston, who's their leader? Beverley? A PG who would be a backup on most teams in the league and is a very limited player? Can he impose his personality on the team to the extent that Harden and Howard will play "the right way"? I'd say no since his greatest talent is D, and his tenacity doesn't rub off on any of his teammates at all. And again, it probably doesn't help that it doesn't rub off on Harden and Howard, because if they're not following the example, why would anyone else feel inclined to?

I think you're beyond underestimating the importance of leadership in your key players. That is what creates the trickle down effect. Your key guys set the tone, everyone follows, and the whole becomes more than just the sum of its parts.

*I also think Harden's a great case study in this. He was a great "follower" in OKC. He actually played hard D regularly, and was doing things the "right way" on the floor a lot. He had to follow the example set by the other stars on the team. Then he gets is own team, and bad habits immediately start, and leadership and accountability just seem to have gone out the window in his game.

[ddaylewis]

A few thoughts on this.

First, I don't think it's that hard to judge personalities as players. Personality comes through in terms of how they behave as a player pretty clearly on the floor. We are just judging them as basketball players, including in terms of leadership. How a guy plays, and how his teammates function around him give a pretty good feel for a guy's personality and leadership ability. Do guys play hard on O? On D? Do they try to play smart? Is there good communication when things break down (Harden's on court communication is something I've seen be pretty goddamn awful)?

Second, scoring is not the end all and be all of value. Bringing McGrady back up, he could put the ball in the hoop as well as anyone, and is still widely regarded as "failure" due to his inability to lead a team to deep playoff

To expand on that, scoring is also fairly easy to replace compared to leadership. I honestly don't even know how you can say that it's easier to find a solid leader of men than replace scoring. How many solid leaders are there in the league? How many of them are also good enough players to be team leaders? To be a real contender, your best player(s) have to be leaders. Doesn't mean you can't get leadership from other guys, but "stars" absolutely have to command respect and lead by example, if not also vocally.

Going back to Houston, who's their leader? Beverley? A PG who would be a backup on most teams in the league and is a very limited player? Can he impose his personality on the team to the extent that Harden and Howard will play "the right way"? I'd say no since his greatest talent is D, and his tenacity doesn't rub off on any of his teammates at all. And again, it probably doesn't help that it doesn't rub off on Harden and Howard, because if they're not following the example, why would anyone else feel inclined to?

I think you're beyond underestimating the importance of leadership in your key players. That is what creates the trickle down effect. Your key guys set the tone, everyone follows, and the whole becomes more than just the sum of its parts.

*I also think Harden's a great case study in this. He was a great "follower" in OKC. He actually played hard D regularly, and was doing things the "right way" on the floor a lot. He had to follow the example set by the other stars on the team. Then he gets is own team, and bad habits immediately start, and leadership and accountability just seem to have gone out the window in his game.

Look, this is a largely subjective debate. You can say personality flows through the players on the court, but that's your opinion. You're really just extrapolating their skills and making a case on their personality because we don't know enough about most of these players' personalities to have any other basis of judgement. 95 percent of what you see of these players happens on the court, so that's all you have to base your opinions on.

But where we differ is how willing we are to embrace an answer. I don't think there's enough personal information gleamed from watching them play alone, so I'm happy to plead ignorance. You, on the other hand, are fully ready to draw conclusions on these players as people, their dynamic as to how they interact with others off the court, and their sensibilities based off their play style.

And again, that's fine. I'll stick with what I know for sure: Harden scores at a very elite level and can handle point guard responsibilities. I also know that he's won repeatedly in the Western Conference, including taking the Rockets to 45 wins with a brand new set of mediocre teammates. DeRozan, on the other hand, hasn't proven he can come close to the level of scorer Harden is, and while he is a better defender (though still sub-par overall), has led his team to 48 wins once in an abjectly worse conference.

Edit: Sub-par is selling DeRozan short. He's worked his way up to average. I should grant him that.

[chico]

I'm leery to speculate on any players' personality, and how it affects his locker room's dynamic. No one knows that, not even the beat writers. We aren't privy to the thoughts in their minds.

That being said, I'd say the odds are good that Harden isn't terribly adored by his teammates.

However, there are exactly 4 scorers who have scored over 25 PPG with a TS% of 60 or better in the last two seasons. Those four are Harden, Curry, James and Durant. That's it. You can't ignore that amount of raw scoring at such an efficient rate. I think people are too readily overlooking this point.

But there is the personality issue to potentially factor in. That makes Harden less than perfect. But it's a whole lot easier to find a solid leader of men than it is to replace Harden's scoring output.

Oh gawd, DeMar still not getting the respect he has earned mountains of from some circles in Raptorland. I've got a feeling you'll change that opinion of how easy it is to find leaders as you experience more in life, but simplifying DeMar's contributions as nothing more than "solid leader" in comparison to Harden's stats is implying that's all DeMar provides. It's the whole package that DeMar brings that forms my opinion that it's a whole lot easier to find a one trick (no defense, no team first, the rest are replaceable bit parts) Harden, than it is to replace the whole package that DeMar brings to the table, which includes constantly improving numbers too.

The cliche may be that it's a stars' league, but it's still a team game that requires TEAM to succeed beyond the scoring output of one player. Ask KD. Ask LeBron. Ask Curry. The Raptors are building a team culture based on team first, relentless hard work and pursuit of improvement, and DeMar is a very big part of establishing that, if not the biggest part. There's good reason the organization sends every young guy to work with DeMar in the off season. Funny how we don't hear much about Houston players working with Harden in the off season, but Harden goes to work with DeMar too, hmmmmm.

How people downplay that and put Harden at a much higher value than DeMar is beyond me. Look at the difference in off seasons of their two teams. Houston's third top player, Parsons, and the guy who reportedly played a big role in recruiting Dwight a year earlier, bolted after 1 year of playing with those two together. KL, GV and PP lined up to re-sign and play with DeMar, likely for less than each of them could have got on the open market. But yeah, much easier to find that leadership than Harden's stats? NO.

[white men can't jump]

Look, this is a largely subjective debate. You can say personality flows through the players on the court, but that's your opinion. You're really just extrapolating their skills and making a case on their personality because we don't know enough about most of these players' personalities to have any other basis of judgement. 95 percent of what you see of these players happens on the court, so that's all you have to base your opinions on.

But where we differ is how willing we are to embrace an answer. I don't think there's enough personal information gleamed from watching them play alone, so I'm happy to plead ignorance. You, on the other hand, are fully ready to draw conclusions on these players as people, their dynamic as to how they interact with others off the court, and their sensibilities based off their play style.

And again, that's fine. I'll stick with what I know for sure: Harden scores at a very elite level and can handle point guard responsibilities. I also know that he's won repeatedly in the Western Conference, including taking the Rockets to 45 wins with a brand new set of mediocre teammates. DeRozan, on the other hand, hasn't proven he can come close to the level of scorer Harden is, and while he is a better defender (though still sub-par overall), has led his team to 48 wins once in an abjectly worse conference.

But we are judging what's happening on the court. And by what happens, we can also extrapolate general leadership impact including what their off-court personality does to aid/hamper on-court chemistry with teammates.

Lets bring Howard into this. I doubt you'd find a teammate who has anything bad to say about him at all. He's clearly a really nice, well-liked guy whose teammates all love him. Yet, he also seemingly has little impact on his teammates approach on the court. Guys do not play harder for him just because they like him. There isn't better accountability and chemistry because they like him. Compare this to Kobe, who lots of guys who've played with him don't have very good things to say about him as an off-court person. Not that he's a bad guy, just a lone wolf type of guy who isn't warm or very friendly...Still he commands respect and demands accountability from his teammates. They either elevate their games, or they aren't going to be in LA long.

So what do I conclude? That Howard and Harden have just so far not displayed whatever qualities lead to successful team building on the court. And again, I come back to the "is the whole greater than the sum of its parts?" debate. In Houston, one could argue they're even less, considering many would vote Howard as the top C and Harden as the top SG in the game, and top 10 talents both of them. Toronto may have only had 48 wins in a weaker conference, but they were a team considered to not even have one top 50 player, let alone two top 10 players. So I'd say Toronto as a team really were more than the sum of their parts last year, and that was because of leadership coming from the backcourt. And yes, I do realize Lowry's definitely the bigger influence than DeMar, but the latter still played a critical leadership role, even if quieter, partly also by being on the same page as Lowry and creating that culture of accountability (and as I'll get into a bit with Houston, our coach Casey is definitely a positive in this area as he tries to bring out these qualities in his players and does a decent job).

And to add a final thought to this, these things aren't set in stone, but I'm not sure there's a catalyst currently there to help change things, especially for Harden*. Going back to the secondary players aspect...I don't think they can pick up a guy who's going to help foster that kind of leadership in Harden. I also think McHale is a pretty shitty coach and isn't doing anything good in this area. He has no clue how to nurture and promote leadership in his players. And I think that the coach is kind of going to have to be the catalyst in that team's current situation....

*I think Harden has more chance to change than Howard, who kind of is who he is, and if years under SVG couldn't help him develop the right edge/approach of a leader, it's probably never going to happen.

Also, and as I said in my first post and you reiterate...this is largely subjective...but I just have not really seen any positives in this respect in Houston since Harden arrived. And as I alluded to before, he did show the ability to be part of that type of culture in a "follower" role in OKC, and should understand the importance of leadership and culture building based on that experience...but instead seems to have taken a turn for the worse when pushed into the star role. To me this is very discouraging. He was even my favorite SG in the league when he was in OKC, because he actually always played hard and even played strong D for them off the bench, so I thought he would translate into a natural leader if he kept doing the same things and demanding that same approach from his teammates.

[ddaylewis]

But we are judging what's happening on the court. And by what happens, we can also extrapolate general leadership impact including what their off-court personality does to aid/hamper on-court chemistry with teammates.

Lets bring Howard into this. I doubt you'd find a teammate who has anything bad to say about him at all. He's clearly a really nice, well-liked guy whose teammates all love him. Yet, he also seemingly has little impact on his teammates approach on the court. Guys do not play harder for him just because they like him. There isn't better accountability and chemistry because they like him. Compare this to Kobe, who lots of guys who've played with him don't have very good things to say about him as an off-court person. Not that he's a bad guy, just a lone wolf type of guy who isn't warm or very friendly...Still he commands respect and demands accountability from his teammates. They either elevate their games, or they aren't going to be in LA long.

So what do I conclude? That Howard and Harden have just so far not displayed whatever qualities lead to successful team building on the court. And again, I come back to the "is the whole greater than the sum of its parts?" debate. In Houston, one could argue they're even less, considering many would vote Howard as the top C and Harden as the top SG in the game, and top 10 talents both of them. Toronto may have only had 48 wins in a weaker conference, but they were a team considered to not even have one top 50 player, let alone two top 10 players. So I'd say Toronto as a team really were more than the sum of their parts last year, and that was because of leadership coming from the backcourt. And yes, I do realize Lowry's definitely the bigger influence than DeMar, but the latter still played a critical leadership role, even if quieter, partly also by being on the same page as Lowry and creating that culture of accountability (and as I'll get into a bit with Houston, our coach Casey is definitely a positive in this area as he tries to bring out these qualities in his players and does a decent job).

And to add a final thought to this, these things aren't set in stone, but I'm not sure there's a catalyst currently there to help change things, especially for Harden*. Going back to the secondary players aspect...I don't think they can pick up a guy who's going to help foster that kind of leadership in Harden. I also think McHale is a pretty shitty coach and isn't doing anything good in this area. He has no clue how to nurture and promote leadership in his players. And I think that the coach is kind of going to have to be the catalyst in that team's current situation....

*I think Harden has more chance to change than Howard, who kind of is who he is, and if years under SVG couldn't help him develop the right edge/approach of a leader, it's probably never going to happen.

Also, and as I said in my first post and you reiterate...this is largely subjective...but I just have not really seen any positives in this respect in Houston since Harden arrived. And as I alluded to before, he did show the ability to be part of that type of culture in a "follower" role in OKC, and should understand the importance of leadership and culture building based on that experience...but instead seems to have taken a turn for the worse when pushed into the star role. To me this is very discouraging. He was even my favorite SG in the league when he was in OKC, because he actually always played hard and even played strong D for them off the bench, so I thought he would translate into a natural leader if he kept doing the same things and demanding that same approach from his teammates.

I pretty much categorically disagree with everything you said here, which traces back to my last post. That's cool. I can see why Harden is a particular divisive player.

You can run circles around Harden and Howards' perceived personalities, and how their teammates play for them. There's no right answer to that because we don't know enough about these players.

But I implore you and everyone else here to not overlook the fact that Harden and Howard have won everywhere they've gone, and they have tremendously positive impacts on the game that is easy to see by the eye test and whatever statistical measure you'd like to use.

Don't get so caught up in who you think they are as people. They're basketball players. Harden and Howard are tremendous basketball players who have consistently won. DeRozan may reach that one day, but isn't there. Don't lose sight of what is so patently obvious and measurable.

[white men can't jump]

I pretty much categorically disagree with everything you said here, which traces back to my last post. That's cool. I can see why Harden is a particular divisive player.

You can run circles around Harden and Howards' perceived personalities, and how their teammates play for them. There's no right answer to that because we don't know enough about these players.

But I implore you and everyone else here to not overlook the fact that Harden and Howard have won everywhere they've gone, and they have tremendously positive impacts on the game that is easy to see by the eye test and whatever statistical measure you'd like to use.

Don't get so caught up in who you think they are as people. They're basketball players. Harden and Howard are tremendous basketball players who have consistently won. DeRozan may reach that one day, but isn't there. Don't lose sight of what is so patently obvious and measurable.

Who they are as people affects who they are as players, and that's what I'm focusing on. I don't care if either is a good guy, or however they are off the court, but whoever they are clearly influences the way they, and their team, plays. And this is visible because we can see how the team plays. We can see Harden yell at one of his teammates for "missing" a defensive assignment that was actually Harden's. We can see a team that lacks defensive cohesiveness and accountability, and just wants to run and play a fun offensive game.

Don't lose sight of what is unmeasurable. Because that is the easiest thing to overlook. You ignore because you can say "oh, it's hard to know exactly what the impact is and how to quantify it"...but it's pretty easily quantified by the fact that no championship team has ever had poor leadership from it's star players, and tons star players have "led" teams to perennial playoff appearances without ever breaking through as real contenders or championship teams (and admittedly, this is sometimes on the lack of talent on a team, not poor leadership).

[Demographic Shift]

We are a bit biased here in the homeland of WE THE NORTH but today Harden gets the nod from the ESPN/TNT/CBS/SI et al crowd as the better player.

Can Demar surpass Harden ?

One sure way to do it would be for DD to lead his team to an EC or NBA championship as a pretty unassailable datapoint as to who is the better player. Winning matters. An excellent set of statistics without winning are just mildly interesting.