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T. Ross. Still a better idea than Andre Drummond?

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  • #61
    Superjudge wrote: View Post
    You are welcome to move on, nobody forcing you to a) read or b) respond

    If you don't understand the thread, just ask and I will explain, I just assumed that after hearing nothing but hype all offseason and wishful chatter about how hard Ross worked and how mature he was, people might be a little let down to see how insignificant he has been so far. He doesn't make the game simple for himself.... I think you either have it, or you do not.

    I'm not certain he does, this off season was supposed to be a bit of a watershed moment..... I'm underwhelmed so far.

    I'd sure as shit enjoy watching JV and Drummond together for stretches though....heh, it would be hilarious.
    I'm let down. He didn't get any bigger. His handles are weak as usual. He doesn't make enough defensive contribution to compensate for his offense. His three point shooting is inconsistent. He is soft and allergic for contact. I was hopeful that improvement over the summer will help him to be consistent and diversify his game. But all that talk was bullshit. Masai is not going to extend him when the time comes.
    Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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    • #62
      mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
      Exactly.

      You don't keep both JV and Drummond long term.


      Here is the question: would Drummond and/or JV return a better player than Ross?


      Yes to both me thinks.


      Here is another question: could Ross still have been had on draft night plus another asset?

      Yes again me thinks.
      I don't think I've got an unassailable opinion on this but I'll go one more round For the second point, you may very well be right but as no one can say for sure, the jury is out. As for the first point, I agree that you would not have kept them both But in the meantime, only one of them would have developed into anything that would get you a definitively better player than Ross. Would both JV and Ross have had their year 1 to 2 progression if they played on the same team? What is the trade market for a guy who might be good but has never had a chance to show it because someone else on the team is young and plays the exact same position. Not "is he a point guard or a scoring guard..is he a three or a stretch four?". These guys are "position number 5" centres. They would not overlap. Both have earned their value by playing starter minutes on bad and once-bad teams.
      What did New Orleans get for Darren Collison when he showed promise backing up Chris Paul? What did the Rockets get for Asik once Howard was around? That's not the best example but they are the ones that come to mind. Not sure whether the others would prove or disprove my point.
      The most likely reality is that we would have had either the original storyline (Val and Ross), a storyline where Val succeeded and Drummond barely played or one where Drummond became the star and Val never realized the limited potential he has already shown. That is the player you would have had available to trade. And it certainly would have had to be for someone better than Ross because you would have come out of the 2012 draft with two centres and no small forwards (please, no jokes that we still didn't have a SF. Ross may not be a small forward but he plays one on tv).
      Nobody is arguing that the somewhat inconsistent Ross is better than a giant centre who was selected for the US National Team. I'm just saying that was never the choice we were asked to make. That is my opinion that I've had time to write because I've spilled my coffee all over the fancy buttons on my station at the power plant. Springfield out.

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      • #63
        Jclaw wrote: View Post
        I don't think I've got an unassailable opinion on this but I'll go one more round For the second point, you may very well be right but as no one can say for sure, the jury is out. As for the first point, I agree that you would not have kept them both But in the meantime, only one of them would have developed into anything that would get you a definitively better player than Ross. Would both JV and Ross have had their year 1 to 2 progression if they played on the same team? What is the trade market for a guy who might be good but has never had a chance to show it because someone else on the team is young and plays the exact same position. Not "is he a point guard or a scoring guard..is he a three or a stretch four?". These guys are "position number 5" centres. They would not overlap. Both have earned their value by playing starter minutes on bad and once-bad teams.
        What did New Orleans get for Darren Collison when he showed promise backing up Chris Paul? What did the Rockets get for Asik once Howard was around? That's not the best example but they are the ones that come to mind. Not sure whether the others would prove or disprove my point.
        The most likely reality is that we would have had either the original storyline (Val and Ross), a storyline where Val succeeded and Drummond barely played or one where Drummond became the star and Val never realized the limited potential he has already shown. That is the player you would have had available to trade. And it certainly would have had to be for someone better than Ross because you would have come out of the 2012 draft with two centres and no small forwards (please, no jokes that we still didn't have a SF. Ross may not be a small forward but he plays one on tv).
        Nobody is arguing that the somewhat inconsistent Ross is better than a giant centre who was selected for the US National Team. I'm just saying that was never the choice we were asked to make. That is my opinion that I've had time to write because I've spilled my coffee all over the fancy buttons on my station at the power plant. Springfield out.
        I'm not disagreeing with anything you've put out there. We don't know how things would have turned out in an alternate universe.

        However we do "know" through the infamous sources that the Spurs wanted JV and were apparently willing to part with Parker. We also know OKC came calling about JV in a move for Harden.


        That is my only point: JV and Drummond both had and have more trade value than Ross.

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        • #64
          MixxAOR wrote: View Post
          I'm let down. He didn't get any bigger. His handles are weak as usual. He doesn't make enough defensive contribution to compensate for his offense. His three point shooting is inconsistent. He is soft and allergic for contact. I was hopeful that improvement over the summer will help him to be consistent and diversify his game. But all that talk was bullshit. Masai is not going to extend him when the time comes.
          Ditto.

          I think he is traded this year. Bruno is the long term compliment to DeRozan.

          Comment was made about the comparisons with DD and Ross. If you put Ross' talent and athleticism in DeRozan's practice and preparation, you're talking legit franchise player.

          Everyone in the NBA is talented. It is the work ethic and willingness to sacrifice that often separates the good from the really good. DeRozan is living proof of that.

          Comment


          • #65
            mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
            Ditto.

            I think he is traded this year. Bruno is the long term compliment to DeRozan.

            Comment was made about the comparisons with DD and Ross. If you put Ross' talent and athleticism in DeRozan's practice and preparation, you're talking legit franchise player.

            Everyone in the NBA is talented. It is the work ethic and willingness to sacrifice that often separates the good from the really good. DeRozan is living proof of that.
            If he's not careful he's going to be in Ed Davis situation real soon, fighting to stay in a league.
            Only one thing matters: We The Champs.

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            • #66
              mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
              I'm not disagreeing with anything you've put out there. We don't know how things would have turned out in an alternate universe.

              However we do "know" through the infamous sources that the Spurs wanted JV and were apparently willing to part with Parker. We also know OKC came calling about JV in a move for Harden.


              That is my only point: JV and Drummond both had and have more trade value than Ross.
              Touche (can't find the "accent" on my keyboard). And, out of respect to the OP, the question being asked is asking us to use the power of hindsight so I'll stop trying to pretend that the future Drummond never happened

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              • #67
                Superjudge wrote: View Post
                I have long been a very vocal opposition to the Terrence Ross pick over Drummond. Time and time again you get a debate on this with Ross fans, of which i try to be one of, but the debate is always pretty lame.

                I'm gonna go ahead and say it again for fun, the Raptors made a huge mistake choosing Ross over Drummond. Ross isn't going to be an impact player in the NBA. Drummond already is.

                Thoughts?
                worst draft choice ever in raptors history pray we get him next year in FA

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                • #68
                  grindhouse wrote: View Post
                  worst draft choice ever in raptors history pray we get him next year in FA
                  Yeah... this is a huge exaggeration.

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                  • #69
                    chico wrote: View Post
                    What does it say? That he consistently ignores defensive responsibilities of getting his ass back, in the interest of getting his? That he'll often push his own teammates out of his way, and screw up their defensive responsibilities too, in the interest of getting his?

                    Great rebounding stats, but how he gets them, and the value it adds/subtracts from team success says more than the stat alone. I hear a lot of "not his fault, it's a bad team" to excuse the team record, but if his team shot better than the Raps, as you've said, and he rebounds better than our combined front court, what does it say about him that his team had 29 wins, vs a team that had 48 wins while shooting poorer and rebounding poorer? Might it be that as team play, and team success goes, his individual stat stuffing doesn't really help his team win, and that team ball isn't in his DNA?
                    so you're saying if we didn't have that 48 win season last year, than [insert any raptor] doesnt have team ball in their dna?

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                    • #70
                      If it was so easy for young players to get crazy amounts of rebounds on bad teams, more of them would do it.

                      Of all the players 21 and under in history, Drummond had the second highest rebounding percentage of all time (minimum 1600 minutes). He placed second to Moses Malone, and was ahead of Love, Shaq, and Dwight.

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                      • #71
                        MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                        If he's not careful he's going to be in Ed Davis situation real soon, fighting to stay in a league.
                        TRoss?! Geezus. C'mon guys.

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                        • #72
                          iblastoff wrote: View Post
                          so you're saying if we didn't have that 48 win season last year, than [insert any raptor] doesnt have team ball in their dna?
                          No, my thoughts go a little deeper than some simplistic misinterpretation of what I said. You and Fully bosom buddies? Twist others' posts to fit your narrative? Priceless.

                          My opinion comes from watching him play, not stroking his................ rebounding stats, yeah that's it.

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                          • #73
                            I was scared of Drummond when thinking about the 2012 draft. Big men that seem to have the intangibles but not the drive can become busts. Drummond wasn't a very good rebounder in college (although you could blame the system there). His IQ was always questionable and 6 other teams before the Raptors all feared the same type of things (NOLA would have been nuts to pass on the other AD).

                            I do wonder if his value as an asset would have gone up after summer league that year, thus making him a guy that a team like OKC would move Harden for. That would have been pretty cool. But Ross wasn't a bad pick.. I mean guys taken after him were pretty much duds. And if it weren't for Cleveland we probably would have drafted Waiters. I don't think Waiters is terrible but I like Ross more.

                            I don't think Ross will be taking a big leap this year (DD from his 2nd to 3rd year wasn't that great either). I suspect his big leap to come in his 4th year. But he's one of our best tradeable assets too.. so if we were to trade him it better be for a difference maker - someone like Horford for example.

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                            • #74
                              In games when T. Ross averaged 30-39 minutes (28 games), he averaged 15.5 ppg - 3.6 rpg - 1.3 apg on 47% FG and 44% 3pt.

                              Undoubtedly it has more to do with when Ross plays better, he gets minutes (rather than minutes improving his averages). But this is what he is capable off now when he plays to his actual skillset. This is what a good game from TRoss brings. His issue would be to do this consistently, every game (28 games out of 82 is not enough), and I hope we will see a little more of that form of consistency this season.

                              I wasn't impressed with his preseason, but Im excited to see what he brings this season.
                              The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                MixxAOR wrote: View Post
                                If he's not careful he's going to be in Ed Davis situation real soon, fighting to stay in a league.
                                Maybe ross isn't what anyone expected. But there's no way he'll end up in Ed Davis territory. Ed was a backup big on a shitty lottery team. Ross is the starting sf for a playoff team, big difference.

                                I don't understand how half of you were saying last year that if ross weren't playing with dd, he would be a superstar because of the natural talent he had and the lack of talent dd had. And now say he will be struggling to find a spot on a team. wtf guys c'mon. He was never going to be a superstar but being a 3 & d guy like wesley Mathews was always an option and still is.

                                Everyone needs to chill
                                I'm back. I no longer worship joe johnson

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