Rudy Gay Trade

[OldSchool]

This really isn't a discussion at all.

Exactly. So lets see, were currently first in the east with one of the best starts we've had in ages, and this is a continuation of an amazing second half of the previous season (ever since the Rudy Gay trade) . Every thing is exactly where it should be more or less.

What a stupid thread.

[Quirk]

What a stupid thread.

Umm, perhaps the most uninteresting comments are about how stupid or not a thread is. Find or start another if you don't like it. "Everything is exactly as it should be" is not relevant here, I also like where the team is, this thread is not about that.

When Colangelo traded for Gay I was very displeased with that, I don't like like inefficient high volume scorers like Gay, never been a fan, and I actually liked Calderon and Ed Davis a lot, to me, Jose is clearly better than Greivas, looking at WP48, for instance, Vasquez has a career average of 0.082, which is below average for his position, his best year (12-13) he had 0.110, which is slightly above average. Calderon on the otherhand, has a Career average of 0.206, and his worst year (05-06) he had 0.120, better than Vasquez's best year. Now Calderon is maybe a "WP" type player who's value is overstated by the stats, but even overstated, the difference is dramatic. Also, Calderon is a better passer, shooter and overall offensive leader that Vasquez, and as for defence, they are both pretty bad, what Vasquez gains in size, he gives away in lack of speed. Vasquez is younger, for sure, and that is important, but he's hardly a prospect, since league-average is about his ceiling.

I agree with what a lot of people have said, in that Ed Davis is perhaps redundant here with Amir and (to a lesser extent) T-Bro, and in this way 2Pat is a better fit, and I agree, I also like 2Pat as a player, but again, Patterson's career WP48 is 0.087 while ED's is .179, they are both absolutely killing it this year, but ED is more likely to sustain that level given his career numbers, while Pat is likely to regress somewhat. And in issolation, as far as PF of the future, if Amir where to move or deteriate, I'd much rather have ED as a starting forward that Patterson, because I believe that having starting players who play the more prototypical game for their position are a better basis for a winning team,

Asr far as Lowry not emerging if Calderon remained, I suppose that's a positibility, and I would hope the coaching staff would not allow that, and "give Lowry the keys" as BC said in the press conference when Lowry was acquired. Lowry is the best and most important player on this team by a long shot. But I'm not trying to write an alternative history for the team, just comparing the value of what we traded for Gay compared to what we got for him.

I also like Acy better than Hayes, but yeah, the core comparison is ED/2Pat/ and GV/JC.

Salmons and Gray don't move the needle for me, and as I said, we made a great trade with Salmons, but it remains a subsequent trade, and in any case not a big fan of Williams, and Bebe, though Intriguing, is just a guy in a suit with a nice hairdo at the moment.

Don't get me wrong, Ujiri has done a great job, none of this is meant to suggest anything else, and even if the value that we got for Gay is less than what we gave up, what we got does fit well both for today and the future.

[Azor Ahai]

Ed Davis had potential in Toronto, probably still does, but has never shown that he can put it all together. There was a reason nobody really wanted him this summer, and he got $2 million over 2 years. He provides decent defense and rebounding, but pretty limited offensively, and I was never too sure about his drive or attitude. Patterson, even when he isnt playing that well, stretches out the floor as a threat from 3, and is a good team defender as well. He gives us a lot more versatility with our lineups as the only true shooting big in our lineup. I dont think this is a tough choice if picking between the two.
Quincy Acy is exciting and fun, but is he that good...I'm not too sure about that. Would he get minutes on good team like the RAPTORS!! If we had Amir, Ed Davis, Hansborough and Acy, would he play? Hayes is limited offensively, but provides relatively good defence off the bench at a position we need, Centre.
Calderon v Vasquez is the only interesting question in my opinion. They are both bad defenders, but Vasquez can at times be useful because of his length and size at PG. Calderon is a lights out 3 point shooter and does a great job running a team. Vasquez at times does a good job running the team, and is a decent 3 point shooter. Vasquez does seem to have a tendency to hit big shots, and get the fans and teammates pumped up, whereas I feel like Calderon wasnt clutch, though I dont have any numbers to back that up. The point about Lowry not taking the next step if Calderon stayed is a great one too though.
Conclusion is that I think we are way better off with the trades that have occurred.

[Kuh]

When Colangelo traded for Gay I was very displeased with that, I don't like like inefficient high volume scorers like Gay, never been a fan, and I actually liked Calderon and Ed Davis a lot.

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I also remember Ed Davis developing some good big-to-big passing with Amir just before he left the team, and Davis has also proven he can play center.

Having said that, the past is the past.

[92TillInfinity]

I miss Acy.

[Superjudge]

Ed Davis is a scrub.

Whats happened to change that?

[Quirk]

Ed Davis is a scrub.

Whats happened to change that?

Um, 13.6 rebounds and 16.1 points per 48 minutes across a sample size of over 6000 career minutes? Career 56.2 TS% currently putting up a stunning 67.5 TS% so far this season? That's the kind of scrub I'd love to have around. The Lakers might be an OK team if they benched the washed up Bryant and Boozer.

[Bendit]

The classic "what if/might have been" thread.

Unless I missed it....apart from the Rudy Gay return in the trade what is being overlooked is that Calderon had to go. Why? Because Lowry was kicking up a shit storm with the team/Casey. He wanted pg control of the team and BC did not want to jeopardize the KL transaction (1st rounder) to keep JC anymore. BC alludes to this in yesterdays interview on 590.

[Quirk]

The classic "what if/might have been" thread.

Actually, my intention was only to compare what we gave up for Gay to what we got for him, not reimagine team history, Just compare values.

As this thread shows, Ujiri did an amazing job undoing a really bad trade in Calderon and Davis for Rudy Gay by getting a return that is certainly comparable, and IMO, an interesting comparison.

If Jose Calderon had to go because of reduncy with Lowry and Davis had to go because of redundency with Amir, then fine, but we didn't need to acquire box score blackout Gay for them!

Though the incredible return Ujiri got for Gay makes it another interesting comparison, if given the chance, what would Ujiri have gotten for Calderon, Davis, Acy and Gray, which ultimately what we gave up for the Ruby experiment. Especially considering that Calderon and Davis where obviously the best offer available to Memphis at the time, and Gay didn't exactly improve his rep or value during his stint in Toronto.

So my question is how does the value of Calderon, Davis, Acy and Gray compare with the value of Patterson, Vasquez, Hayes and Salmons.

[ejah]

This discussion needs to go beyond player math. Trading for Gay may have been a terrible acquisition for a short period, but it got us to this point culturally. This is the most important thing.

Are the raptors much more talented than the nuggets? The Raptors are a case study in playing the right way and having a positive culture.

[enlightenment]

This discussion needs to go beyond player math. Trading for Gay may have been a terrible acquisition for a short period, but it got us to this point culturally. This is the most important thing.

Are the raptors much more talented than the nuggets? The Raptors are a case study in playing the right way and having a positive culture.

Meh, looks like the nuggets are less talented, and definitely not as deep

Ty Lawson < Lowry
Aaron Afflalo < DD
Gallinari = TRoss
Faried > Amir
Mozgov < Val

[tonious35]

Acy > Hayes. ED > Patterson (by a bit) ... I never said Acy > Patterson.

IMO: Hayes> Acy. This Team needs veteran locker-room experience and a message of why this 6'-6" Center is still valued by all coaches in the league. If a Coach can't get to a player, Hayes will step in and give that player a talk. Val starts getting killed by another center and Tyler is not there, Hayes will show you how it is done defensively even if it looks ugly. Acy still does not get it yet and blows his covers.

Patterson > ED: Patterson might not be athletic as ED, but PAT-PAT has the right skills to compliment a winning team. His 3pt shot is valued as a premium at his position. He might not be gifted athletically on defense, but still plays it smartly. ED still does not have a solid shot yet.

[MACK11]

Whoever keeps saying Ed> 2pat is completely wrong on all accounts. There's a reason Patterson was signed for 6mil per and Ed Davis is making 1mil per. Also don't bring up this per36 or whatever. There's a reason why Ed isn't playing 36mins a night

[KeonClark]

Acy > Hayes. ED > Patterson (by a bit) ... I never said Acy > Patterson.

I think Patrick Patterson read this ridiculous post tuesday afternoon.