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Double standard against JV

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  • #31
    KeonClark wrote: View Post
    "Hes our guy come hell or high water" casey picks a top dog and treats then like kevin durant. He used to do the same with bargnani
    Yup, I'm not saying don't bench Jonas when he's playing bad but you've gotta do that to every player or else it's sending a bad message to others.
    "Both teams played hard my man" - Sheed

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    • #32
      KeonClark wrote: View Post
      What happened to caseys tough talk that minutes have to be earned by everyone? When players start knowing they're "required" youre going down a slippery slope. Besides, the offensive drop off from demar to lou is a lot smaller than you may think. Some days it's not a drop off at all.
      I don't think DeMar is looking over his shoulder and worrying that Lou Williams is going to take his starting spot. And if you think that Lou is going to have an easier time playing D, on starting calibre shooting guards than DeMar, then there is no point having this conversation.

      If there is a double standard I sould suggest it's based on the importance Casey puts on defense over offense, but frankly that is a double standard most if not all NBA coaches place, and rightfully so, on their players.

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      • #33
        Come on guys. Let's squash this and move on. No more baiting. It's family here. It's all love.

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        • #34
          Mediumcore wrote: View Post
          I don't think DeMar is looking over his shoulder and worrying that Lou Williams is going to take his starting spot. And if you think that Lou is going to have an easier time playing D, on starting calibre shooting guards than DeMar, then there is no point having this conversation.

          If there is a double standard I sould suggest it's based on the importance Casey puts on defense over offense, but frankly that is a double standard most if not all NBA coaches place, and rightfully so, on their players.
          I would like to stress again that Jonas' D has been better, and even generally quite good so far this year.

          Casey though prefers mobile units, especially late in games. It's understandable, and clearly rooted in his fear of a team making a run that includes lots of 3s. For that, even if Jonas is good defensively, it's a logical adjustment (even if I don't always agree with it).

          Also, he's extending the bench minutes a lot in general. Other than DeMar and Lowry (33ish mpg), all 8 other guys in the rotation are between 18 and 27 mpg. So I wonder if there's a Spurs-like concerted effort to keep minutes spread out and generally reduced so guys are fresher. And maybe with Jonas, there's extra effort to keep his minutes low early on, given his tendency to start slow and his long summer.

          I'd like to see Jonas average more minutes, but I actually don't have a real problem with how he's being handled this year. And have no problem if he's somewhere between 25-30 mpg by season's end, as long as he's being used properly and playing with solid effort on both ends (which again, he has been doing for basically all but one game this season).

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          • #35
            white men can't jump wrote: View Post
            This is kind of ridiculous. Seriously, he's had exactly one terrible game this season.

            He's missed some chipshots...sure.

            He got injured in OKC and sat out, and had a rough shooting game against Orlando twice. He had high turnovers for 2 games, and virtually none the rest of the season.

            I keep seeing this shit about his D. His D has been great every night except the last game. His rim protection has been solid. He's quicker to his spots than last year, and contesting tons of shots. His rebounding has also generally been good except for some weak grabs last game (again, just one game). But if he's not playing good D, we don't win so many games so far, especially with how porous our perimeter D has been.

            Did he look rattled last game, and even a bit offensively against Philly? Sure. But he's not some disaster like so many here are making him out to be.

            Some thoughts:
            -His hand is really busted up and it's his shooting hand. No way that makes anything easier
            -Getting the big men involved is still clearly the last priority of the O.
            -He's still an emotional kid who gets frustrated too easily, and trying to be effective with limited looks and a busted hand is getting to him.
            -He's also been a slow starter every season so far...that seems to be the way it'll stay. Maybe it has to do with long summers, or maybe that's just how he is.
            Bunch of excuses. Specially the one that i bolded.

            I don't buy it at all. The guy is shooting 82% from the line. So you're telling me that he's missing all those WIDE OPEN layups/bunnies because of his "injured hand" come on man. It doesn't seem to affect him at all while shootign freethrows. If you have an injured hand i think it's way harder to shoot freethrows but that's just me.

            Anyhow, I mentioned it before. JV looks slow and heavy this year. He's still very WEAK with the ball. Footwork is still horrendous(this is his 3rd year and i dont see any improvemet). He's always in a HURRY whenever he catch the ball inside, i think it's the main reason why he's missing all those wide open bunnies. He needs to gather himself and go up STRONG and dunk the fucking ball. And i can't blame Casey or the guards for not giving JV the ball in the post. Like i said, JV is very weak with the ball. The ball gets stripped alot most of the time whenever he gets the ball in the post.
            Mamba Mentality

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            • #36
              Some people will never learn. Smarten up guys.

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              • #37
                TRex wrote: View Post
                Bunch of excuses. Specially the one that i bolded.

                I don't buy it at all. The guy is shooting 82% from the line. So you're telling me that he's missing all those WIDE OPEN layups/bunnies because of his "injured hand" come on man. It doesn't seem to affect him at all while shootign freethrows. If you have an injured hand i think it's way harder to shoot freethrows but that's just me.

                Anyhow, I mentioned it before. JV looks slow and heavy this year. He's still very WEAK with the ball. Footwork is still horrendous(this is his 3rd year and i dont see any improvemet). He's always in a HURRY whenever he catch the ball inside, i think it's the main reason why he's missing all those wide open bunnies. He needs to gather himself and go up STRONG and dunk the fucking ball. And i can't blame Casey or the guards for not giving JV the ball in the post. Like i said, JV is very weak with the ball. The ball gets stripped alot most of the time whenever he gets the ball in the post.
                Excuses, or just a different understanding/view than you?

                You're focusing on the shots...you don't think a banged up strong hand (JV is right-handed) can influence how strong a guy is chasing boards or making post moves? He had 8 turnovers his last 2 games, and only 3 combined in all the others. Is it for sure because of the hand? Who knows...but it at least could be more than coincidence.

                Looks slow and weak? He's quicker and stronger than last year, so I don't know what you're judging your assessment on. His rotations are much better on D. He's getting pushed out less on O...both in terms of establishing position, and in terms of while he makes a move (he'd get pushed so far out on that running hook in the lane last year it was infuriating). His post moves are still deliberate and slow, but he basically had no post game whatsoever in his rookie year, so that's not unusual. It's part of the reason some of us scream for him to be used in more varied situations. A guy whose body is still maturing and had no post skills two years ago is not going to go from completely raw to top tier post player in two seasons.

                I am just as frustrated as anyone with the missed gimmies....but I also think that's about the only legit complaint one can have against JV so far this season. And I've said this already in other threads this season, it's not like he's always struggled to finish near the rim, so at this point there's no reason to think it will be a persistent issue, especially in the long-term.
                Last edited by white men can't jump; Thu Nov 13, 2014, 02:48 PM.

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                • #38
                  TRex wrote: View Post
                  Bunch of excuses. Specially the one that i bolded.

                  I don't buy it at all. The guy is shooting 82% from the line. So you're telling me that he's missing all those WIDE OPEN layups/bunnies because of his "injured hand" come on man. It doesn't seem to affect him at all while shootign freethrows. If you have an injured hand i think it's way harder to shoot freethrows but that's just me.

                  Anyhow, I mentioned it before. JV looks slow and heavy this year. He's still very WEAK with the ball. Footwork is still horrendous(this is his 3rd year and i dont see any improvemet). He's always in a HURRY whenever he catch the ball inside, i think it's the main reason why he's missing all those wide open bunnies. He needs to gather himself and go up STRONG and dunk the fucking ball. And i can't blame Casey or the guards for not giving JV the ball in the post. Like i said, JV is very weak with the ball. The ball gets stripped alot most of the time whenever he gets the ball in the post.
                  I agree with what you're saying and much like the reaction to Ross' slow start, I think there might be a bit of an over reaction to JV's defense not always being there through a full game.

                  As far as double standards, being yanked for screw up's and not playing towards end of games I would bring up that stat about the Raptors having the best 4th quarter offense in the league. That is a telling stat as far as why JV is not playing down the stretch. Also we are winning so shaadaaaapp!!!

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                  • #39
                    JV has become a much better player this season, I think the pulling comes from when JV makes mistakes, he tends to think about them for a long, long, long period of time. It tends to affect the next play, rather than moving onto the next play. He loses confidence so easily, and that may or may not be accordingly from being pulled on the short leash, but he also must toughen up mentally. If you ask me, if he can get his head straight and not worry so much about what he didn't do or should have done, he's probably the most improved big in the league.

                    Like 'white men can't jump' said, he's quicker, stronger, holds his ground, and I think his footwork has improved significantly.

                    When throwing DeRozan into this conversation about this double standard, "pull him out because of awful D, mistakes, stupid shots, etc." him just being on the floor is enough of a reason to keep him out there. He's an all-star and an old-fashioned NBA scorer, he will atttract every opposing player's attention despite having a bad game, because he still is talented, and he still is who he is (lol, hope you understand where I'm coming from). DeRozan does pout, and I feel like he's become a bit of a hog this season, but offensively he's too much of a threat not to have on the floor.

                    I will say, on DeRozan's defence, his defence has improved, especially when it comes to closing out on shooters.
                    Twitter: @ReubenJRD • NBA, Raptors writer for Daily Hive Vancouver, Toronto.

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                    • #40
                      ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                      ...I will say, on DeRozan's defence, his defence has improved, especially when it comes to closing out on shooters.
                      While I wouldn't mind seeing DD pulled for a 2 minute sit down when pouting or taking several bad shots row, I agree with your point about him needing to be on the floor to draw defenders. I just hope he improves on his passing out of double teams. His assist to shot ratio is up this year, from what I can see (haven't checked the stats) and you are bang on about his defense having improved...not hugely but it is apparent to the eye test. So maybe caoch Casey has a reason for what he is doing.

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                      • #41
                        ReubenJRD wrote: View Post
                        JV has become a much better player this season, I think the pulling comes from when JV makes mistakes, he tends to think about them for a long, long, long period of time. It tends to affect the next play, rather than moving onto the next play. He loses confidence so easily, and that may or may not be accordingly from being pulled on the short leash, but he also must toughen up mentally. If you ask me, if he can get his head straight and not worry so much about what he didn't do or should have done, he's probably the most improved big in the league.

                        Like 'white men can't jump' said, he's quicker, stronger, holds his ground, and I think his footwork has improved significantly.

                        When throwing DeRozan into this conversation about this double standard, "pull him out because of awful D, mistakes, stupid shots, etc." him just being on the floor is enough of a reason to keep him out there. He's an all-star and an old-fashioned NBA scorer, he will atttract every opposing player's attention despite having a bad game, because he still is talented, and he still is who he is (lol, hope you understand where I'm coming from). DeRozan does pout, and I feel like he's become a bit of a hog this season, but offensively he's too much of a threat not to have on the floor.

                        I will say, on DeRozan's defence, his defence has improved, especially when it comes to closing out on shooters.
                        I don't mean to single you out, because I've seen several posters allude to this, but I don't entirely think the bolded part is a fair assessment. In sports, the old-school "be a man's man" mentality certainly prevails. Accountability is also definitely important, not only to the player being held accountable, but also to other players seeing the accountability being carried out.

                        However, any good behaviorist, HR professional, or manager/team leader will tell you that people are not all motivated the same way. Some people need a swift kick in the ass, while others need a more supportive brand of motivation. I'm not a big softy, suggesting DC should give JV a hug instead of benching him, but I also don't think that any coach should be so rigid that they don't motivate/encourage a player (or hold him accountable) in the manner that will result in the greatest benefit for that specific player.

                        I have no idea whether or not this even applies to JV, but a couple observations have stood out to me lately. First, his overall body language seems to lack confidence at the moment (which may or may not be overly influenced by injury), as many posters have pointed out. Second, he seems to be looking over his shoulder at the bench far too often, as though he's playing in fear of being yanked, for doing something wrong. In professional sports, as in life, you can't be successful if your approach is to not fail. It seems like JV is overthinking his every move and getting down on himself whenever his execution is less than perfect (Jack pointed this out last game), which is no way to play. He needs to be loose, be confident and play on instinct, if he's going to be successful. I just worry that DC's approach is having the opposite effect on him, but obviously our knowledge/insights are extremely limited, since all we have to go on is what we see on TV during the game.

                        Just food for thought, more than an outright complaint.

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                        • #42
                          CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          I don't mean to single you out, because I've seen several posters allude to this, but I don't entirely think the bolded part is a fair assessment. In sports, the old-school "be a man's man" mentality certainly prevails. Accountability is also definitely important, not only to the player being held accountable, but also to other players seeing the accountability being carried out.

                          However, any good behaviorist, HR professional, or manager/team leader will tell you that people are not all motivated the same way. Some people need a swift kick in the ass, while others need a more supportive brand of motivation. I'm not a big softy, suggesting DC should give JV a hug instead of benching him, but I also don't think that any coach should be so rigid that they don't motivate/encourage a player (or hold him accountable) in the manner that will result in the greatest benefit for that specific player.

                          I have no idea whether or not this even applies to JV, but a couple observations have stood out to me lately. First, his overall body language seems to lack confidence at the moment (which may or may not be overly influenced by injury), as many posters have pointed out. Second, he seems to be looking over his shoulder at the bench far too often, as though he's playing in fear of being yanked, for doing something wrong. In professional sports, as in life, you can't be successful if your approach is to not fail. It seems like JV is overthinking his every move and getting down on himself whenever his execution is less than perfect (Jack pointed this out last game), which is no way to play. He needs to be loose, be confident and play on instinct, if he's going to be successful. I just worry that DC's approach is having the opposite effect on him, but obviously our knowledge/insights are extremely limited, since all we have to go on is what we see on TV during the game.

                          Just food for thought, more than an outright complaint.
                          I think Casey is to JV as Jim OBrien was to Hibbert.

                          Only a matter for what coach JV let's loose for.

                          I'm starting to think less and less it is likely to be Casey.

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                          • #43
                            I remember when Amir would be pulled early after picking up 2 fouls. Now Amir is an expert at avoiding fouls while still playing strong defence. I think this is exactly what Casey is trying to get Val to do. Even if you can play with 3 fouls and finish the game, you also need to learn how not to pick up those fouls in the first place. Is pulling him out of the game the right way to do that? Well, I think its good we don't prioritize scoring/rebounding over defending without fouling. If you feel good about yourself that you scored 20-10 but couldn't defend without fouling then is that really a good thing? Maybe you want JV to feel bad, even when he seems to play well simply because what matters at this moment in his development is how to be an elite defender in the post.

                            Fundamentals first.
                            The Baltic Beast is unstoppable!

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                            • #44
                              mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                              I think Casey is to JV as Jim OBrien was to Hibbert.

                              Only a matter for what coach JV let's loose for.

                              I'm starting to think less and less it is likely to be Casey.
                              Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't quite understand that train of thought.

                              Under O'Brien, Hibbert showed increases virtually across the board each year. MPs, FGAs, RBs, BLKs, PTs.

                              Under Vogel, with O'Brien long gone, Hibbert had a jump in the first year, which curiously happened to be his contract year. After signing his big contract, Hibbert has been running downhill in virtually everything for 2 straight years, to the point that as a 7'2" 280+ lb C, his .439 FG% and 6.6 RBs, while playing with a superstar SF and David West as a front court mate, is nothing short of pathetic. O'Brien is far removed from whatever ails Hibbert.

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                              • #45
                                mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
                                I'm a big fan of JV.

                                He's lost his swagger.

                                Whether that is due to injury or confidence, I'm not sure.

                                Doing the one arm reach for rebounds does not help his cause in fans eyes.

                                He has to play tough and fight.... right now I'm not seeing that.

                                I've not been a fan of Casey's handling of him. A lot of posters comment that we are a playoff team and can't afford to develop him or be patient. Well, that approach has been taken the last 2 seasons as well. Soon we're going to be stating we need a presence in the middle. It is why you need to develop guys and let them play on rookie contracts so you're not always holding out for the elusive potential - you need to know what you have.


                                Regardless, right now it is all a waste of time because he is playing soft. Gotta change that, Jonas.
                                I agree. I think there is perhaps more the team can do to help him along though, at least offensively. For one, run some PnR's and try and get him the ball going to the hoop. I just think he needs some easy baskets to get him going again. He's struggling in the post, and thats ok as I think he will play better in that regard. But he needs to get that attitude and edge back like you said. Jonas is awesome when he is fired up.

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